Losing salvation

[Blain DeCastro]

There are those who believe in osas and those who believe you can lose your salvation there are many verses that speak of salvation as a gift from God by his grace and very few if any that say that one can lose it. The thing is what many do not consider is what is a gift from God? If it is understood that we are not saved by our own merits then how can we be lost by our own merits? can a gift be lost especially when the gift is from God? is our salvation in our owwn hands or in his? I was in a discussion about this with a person who believes you can lose your salvation due to sin but when prompted with this explanation he had nothing to say I even asked him is your salvation due to your own merits he said no then I asked then how do you lose it by your own merits again no response

So I am wondering can anyone who believes they can lose it prove this to be true or is it just something they were tuaght? Is there anyone here who believes you can? and if so how do you prove it?

 

[follower]

Wrong question I think.

Those who are not saved, still think they got saved somehow, and they are SURPRISED! on judgment day when they are cast out.

 

[OrthodoxBeliever]

There are those who believe in osas and those who believe you can lose your salvation there are many verses that speak of salvation as a gift from God by his grace and very few if any that say that one can lose it. The thing is what many do not consider is what is a gift from God? If it is understood that we are not saved by our own merits then how can we be lost by our own merits? can a gift be lost especially when the gift is from God? is our salvation in our owwn hands or in his? I was in a discussion about this with a person who believes you can lose your salvation due to sin but when prompted with this explanation he had nothing to say I even asked him is your salvation due to your own merits he said no then I asked then how do you lose it by your own merits again no response

So I am wondering can anyone who believes they can lose it prove this to be true or is it just something they were tuaght? Is there anyone here who believes you can? and if so how do you prove it?

I don't know what you mean by salvation. There will be judgement when Jesus resurrect the righteous and then the wicked in the second resurrection, and he will put the wicked on his left side, meant they are for destruction. Until then we don't know which side we will take.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

I don't know what you mean by salvation. There will be judgement when Jesus resurrect the righteous and then the wicked in the second resurrection, and he will put the wicked on his left side, meant they are for destruction. Until then we don't know which side we will take.

I would disagree we can know them by their fruits

 

[tdidymas]

I would disagree we can know them by their fruits

And we can know ourselves by our own fruit, as Paul explains in Gal. 5:16-22. Responding to those who claim "we" won't know whether we will go to heaven or the lake of fire until judgment day, I say, "you're a blind guide, not knowing where you're going, so who wants to follow your idea"? 1 Jn. 5:13 clearly states we can know (for certain) we have eternal life (being in Christ). And eternal means not temporary (IOW, can't be lost). 1 Pet. 1:5 says we are kept by the power of God through faith (which is part of God's gracious gift), therefore, "keeping ourselves safe" is a completely inadequate idea for salvation. Obviously (if the NT is read with understanding), if God keeps us by His power, then our faith will not be lost, and we will not be lost, since we will loathe disobeying God and losing our precious peace (our eternal treasure beside eternal life).

To be fair, there are certain verses that may imply that one could lose salvation, for example some statement in the Timothy epistles saying that someone might incur "shipwreck" of their faith. However, not everyone in the churches is actually born of God, as not everyone who claims to have faith is a child of God. If someone's faith is shipwrecked such that they become apostate, then it might be Heb. 6:4-6 for them. One might say that such a person has not lost something they never had, but they lost out on an opportunity. Case in point is that Judas lost his golden opportunity, as well as the religious leaders who rejected Jesus.

My point is that you're on the right track with your questions, because it gets to the heart of the matter.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

And we can know ourselves by our own fruit, as Paul explains in Gal. 5:16-22. Responding to those who claim "we" won't know whether we will go to heaven or the lake of fire until judgment day, I say, "you're a blind guide, not knowing where you're going, so who wants to follow your idea"? 1 Jn. 5:13 clearly states we can know (for certain) we have eternal life (being in Christ). And eternal means not temporary (IOW, can't be lost). 1 Pet. 1:5 says we are kept by the power of God through faith (which is part of God's gracious gift), therefore, "keeping ourselves safe" is a completely inadequate idea for salvation. Obviously (if the NT is read with understanding), if God keeps us by His power, then our faith will not be lost, and we will not be lost, since we will loathe disobeying God and losing our precious peace (our eternal treasure beside eternal life).

To be fair, there are certain verses that may imply that one could lose salvation, for example some statement in the Timothy epistles saying that someone might incur "shipwreck" of their faith. However, not everyone in the churches is actually born of God, as not everyone who claims to have faith is a child of God. If someone's faith is shipwrecked such that they become apostate, then it might be Heb. 6:4-6 for them. One might say that such a person has not lost something they never had, but they lost out on an opportunity. Case in point is that Judas lost his golden opportunity, as well as the religious leaders who rejected Jesus.

My point is that you're on the right track with your questions, because it gets to the heart of the matter.

Yes precisely well said very well said indeed

 

[JLB]

So I am wondering can anyone who believes they can lose it prove this to be true or is it just something they were tuaght? Is there anyone here who believes you can? and if so how do you prove it?

The exact phrase “ lose your salvation” does not appear in scripture.

The biblical term for this is “lost”.

Jesus taught us about this.

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


One of the things we can understand from this teaching…


We can only lose what belongs to us in the first place.


The sheep belonged to the shepherd.

The sheep became lost.

The shepherd rejoiced that his sheep was found.


So the only question is: do the lost need salvation?

 

[Blain DeCastro]

The exact phrase “ lose your salvation” does not appear in scripture.

The biblical term for this is “lost”.

Jesus taught us about this.

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


One of the things we can understand from this teaching…


We can only lose what belongs to us in the first place.


The sheep belonged to the shepherd.

The sheep became lost.

The shepherd rejoiced that his sheep was found.


So the only question is: do the lost need salvation?

Without a doubt they do and your right about losing something that was not ours to lose to begin with for after all salvation is a gift from God, our salvation is in his hands not our own so how does one lose something that doesn't belong to them to begin with?

 

[JLB]

Without a doubt they do and your right about losing something that was not ours to lose to begin with for after all salvation is a gift from God, our salvation is in his hands not our own so how does one lose something that doesn't belong to them to begin with?

I think I may understand your post but don’t want to assume anything.

Can you answer the question I asked?

…do the lost need salvation?

 

[Blain DeCastro]

I think I may understand your post but don’t want to assume anything.

Can you answer the question I asked?

…do the lost need salvation?

Well what do you think I mean by it? But yes the lost need salvation absolutely

 

[tdidymas]

I think I may understand your post but don’t want to assume anything.

Can you answer the question I asked?

…do the lost need salvation?

Your logic is flawed and your question is a straw man. You quoted the verse that said Jesus' sheep was lost. If the person was Jesus' sheep, then "My sheep know My voice and they follow Me" will apply here. Therefore, "lost" in this context doesn't mean he isn't saved. "Lost" means he doesn't know where he is going, and has gone astray. The person is still a sheep of the Lord, and so the Lord will certainly bring him back into the fold. This is what the parable is about. It's about how much Christ cares for His own. It can only mean "loss of salvation" if you are reading that into the text, because the text in no way implies that the person belonging to Christ could be forever lost to destruction.

 

[tdidymas]

Well what do you think I mean by it? But yes the lost need salvation absolutely

I'm sorry you fell for that. Read my reply to the other poster. Nevertheless, interpretation depends on how people read the scripture, so the controversy never ends.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

I'm sorry you fell for that. Read my reply to the other poster. Nevertheless, interpretation depends on how people read the scripture, so the controversy never ends.

Interpretation is supposed to be based on what the scriptures say not what we think they say. So perhaps interpretation is not the issue and rather it is the bias of a persons understanding that causes problems

 

[tdidymas]

Interpretation is supposed to be based on what the scriptures say not what we think they say. So perhaps interpretation is not the issue and rather it is the bias of a persons understanding that causes problems

You are correct, that proper interpretation is not the problem. Yet everyone has bias, traditional beliefs, and worldly influences that are obstacles to correct interpretation. Semantics is a huge problem, because people assume definitions of words they read (or hear) because it is naturally difficult to pay close attention to how words are being used in any given context. People normally try to use the best words they know how to communicate an abstract concept (as did the apostles in writing the NT). One of the biggest problems in interpreting scripture is that people are generally too lazy and proud to question how they are reading the scripture to seek out exactly what the apostles were conveying. So then, there are two kinds of interpretation. One is correct interpretation of the text based on correct principles of interpretation, and the other is the private interpretation that most people use based on their own personal knowledge and opinions.

 

[JLB]

Well what do you think I mean by it? But yes the lost need salvation absolutely

Amen. I agree. The lost need salvation.

His sheep who become lost need to repent and return in order to receive salvation, again.


Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

 

[JLB]

Your logic is flawed and your question is a straw man. You quoted the verse that said Jesus' sheep was lost.

Yes His sheep who become lost need salvation.

Do you agree?

Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

 

[Oseas]

1Corinthians 2:
2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8;Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

You are correct, that proper interpretation is not the problem. Yet everyone has bias, traditional beliefs, and worldly influences that are obstacles to correct interpretation. Semantics is a huge problem, because people assume definitions of words they read (or hear) because it is naturally difficult to pay close attention to how words are being used in any given context. People normally try to use the best words they know how to communicate an abstract concept (as did the apostles in writing the NT). One of the biggest problems in interpreting scripture is that people are generally too lazy and proud to question how they are reading the scripture to seek out exactly what the apostles were conveying. So then, there are two kinds of interpretation. One is correct interpretation of the text based on correct principles of interpretation, and the other is the private interpretation that most people use based on their own personal knowledge and opinions.

Something else I have noticed as far as people interpreting is they build a doctrine on a single verse instead of taking the message of the chapter itself

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Amen. I agree. The lost need salvation.

His sheep who become lost need to repent and return in order to receive salvation, again.


Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

This would make sense except if you look at who he was talking to he was talking about Israel who were already lost they were not saved and thus did not lose their salvation to begin with because they never had it to begin with

 

[mailmandan]

This would make sense except if you look at who he was talking to he was talking about Israel who were already lost they were not saved and thus did not lose their salvation to begin with because they never had it to begin with

Amen! In context, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them, while failing to recognize because of pride and self-righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is not that a Christian lost their salvation and had to regain it back again, but the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

This parable does not teach that this one "sheep" was saved and lost their salvation and had to get saved all over again. In Matthew 5:5, we read - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

In Luke 19:10, we read - for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. Not lost their salvation and had to get saved all over again.