Love your enemy

[gingercat]

I believe Jesus is the only one who tells it to the world, but most of us are not practincing it. This is the most difficult one for us because we are so selfish naturally.

Jesus and His disciples were pacifist and they never killed anyone even for self-defence in the NT. Why should we be any different? They were always surrounded by enemies; they were killed instead of fighting back.

Many Christians join the military and churches approve of it. If we are doing the same thing as the rest of the world (approving of joining the military) how can we be His true witnesses? We cannot be His messengers by being one of the world. We have to show His "love" by loving our enemy.

Killing your enemy because you judged they are evil is not of Jesus!

We have many hypocritical practices in the Christian community and joining the military is one of the biggest ones.

He never carried weapons. His sword is the Bible. His soldiers don't carry around weapons. He wants us to concentrate on spreading the good news. His soldiers won't get payed to do His will. They even die for spreading the Truth. Many of us don't even know there are many persecuted Christians in many countries. While we are arguing about OSAS, tongues, Mary and pope whorshipping and other theologies, many faithful ones are hard at work. Many of them get tortured and imprisoned if they are found spreading the Truth. Compared to them most of us are playing Christians. We are deceiving ourselves and others at His expense.

May God help us to be true to Him with all of our heart, soul, strength and mind.

 

[Imagican]

Ginger,

If our country had never had a military capable of defending the freedoms that are existent, you wouldn't be offered the luxury of sitting at your computer in the freedom of your home typing such drivel. You would most likely be non-existent or at best a slave.

While I must admit that our present conflict in the middle east should have NEVER taken place, this doesn't change the FACT that if we had NO military or the desire to stand up and defend our freedom, we wouldn't have any.

So, while Jesus did teach us to turn the other cheek, and love our enemies, I believe that you would be hard pressed to even think such things much less act upon them if you were in slavery being beaten or threatened with death should you resist. Or worse, being raped at the will of your master or tortured for the sake of the thrill that you offer to those that ruled over you.

So, before you start ranting about the military, use your head a little bit. And I say that anyone that doesn't like this country or the freedoms that it offers, they should simply go out and find themselves a 'better' place to live. But that military that you so despise is the ONLY thing that has made it possible for you to reap the benefits that so take for granted.

And you are not the pacifist that you think you are. You are very quick to defend yourself or attack others as you see fit. You just use words as your weapon of choice instead of jets and tanks.

 

[gingercat]

Imagican,

Your resoning is secular mentality. If you are Christian you should start think like Christian. :

BTW, I dont justify myself and kill my enemy because they are evil and threat to me or my family.

 

[Imagican]

And I offer again that you offer words which are easy to spit out when one has but to sit back and reap the benefits from those that have died for you to have this luxury. Words and nothing more. If you happened to be one of those poor unfortunate persons that you continually refer, your view would most likely take on a whole different angle.

Like most Christians that insist that others pick up Christ's cross, you like most of them are most likely completely unable to bear such a burden. If faced with the conditions that Christ was faced with, I doubt that there are a mere .05 percent of those that 'claim' to be Christians that would be able to carry their own cross to their crucifiction if given the choice that He had. Most, if not all, would simply deny Christ and walk away with their remorse and guilt. Peter wasn't even threatened with crucifiction. Just witnessing the beatings of Christ was enough for him to deny Him over and over.

Here we go with that self-righteous thing again. You sit back and enjoy the benefits of those that have died for your freedom that they have had to fight to ensure, complaining about how 'wrong' it is to have a military. It's one thing to admit that you would not have the courage or conviction to fight for your freedom, but to belittle or condemn those that do makes you not only 'self-righteous', but a hypocrit too, IMO. This kind of talk is cheap my friend.

And I suppose that we shouldn't have police either. If someone wants to rob you, you advocate that we should gladly give up anything anyone wants to take from us. Now, before you jump back on your 'self-righteous' pony, what if it wasn't something material that they wanted from you? What if there were fifty of em and they wanted to rape you first and then slowly, very slowly beat the life out of you? I suppose that you would 'gladly' allow this rather than make any effort whatsoever to stop it.

Well, ginger, all I can say is that your convictions are certainly different than mine. I have yet to claim perfection. I simply study and pray and hope that one day my life will become what Christ wants it to be. But I certainly wouldn't sit back and watch as someone raped and tortured my wife. And I will do what I can to defend anyone else in a similar situation. Otherwise, I would be no better than them.

You seem to be deluded with the idea that you 'are' Christ. Sorry my friend, there is ONLY one. Christ lives in us but that still doesn't make us Christ. And what about your love for those that are innocent? Would you refuse to help them because you don't believe in fighting? Would you allow your daughter or son be raped or murdered for your convictions?

I know that you will refuse to answer anything that I've asked in this post. You will certainly have some little snippet to offer about me 'missing the fruit' or some other such nonsense. It just goes to show that you are here NOT to offer anything of substance. You are here to talk and try to prove to yourself and others how important you are. Trust me, you're really just another grain of sand on the shore of this sea of humanity. I guess even that grain of sand has some kind of solace in the fact that it exist. But it's just one of many and all but completely unnoticed by the sunbathers steping and laying upon it.

 

[gingercat]

Imagican,

It seems that you are carrying on a grudge from another thread, If you start being civilized I will answer to your questions. I will not going to have an immature, childish fight on the world wide internet, dear.

thanks.

 

[Imagican]

And I expected no less from you.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Well, Imagican, I have to say I agree with you. It is nice you don't make broad sweeping generalizations and only focus on the negative. Continue to stand firm and realize you have at least one who supports you.

 

[destiny]

Well, Imagican, I have to say I agree with you. It is nice you don't make broad sweeping generalizations and only focus on the negative. Continue to stand firm and realize you have at least one who supports you.

Make that two.

 

[gingercat]

OK, everyone,

Tell me then which denomination doesn't approve of military? I haven't found any, except JW.

I am not JW.

Many people get upset about this subject. :roll: Isn't that why yo dont want to bring this subject up?

Many denominations are brain washed in their theology, Pentecoastal's tongues, Catholics' Mary and pope and peter woshipping, Baptists' and others OSAS and etc. But all of you have something in common it is about military. You get in cohoots in killing the evil enemy in the name of Jesus.

 

[destiny]

OK, everyone,

Tell me then which denomination doesn't approve of military? I haven't found any, except JW.

I am not JW.

Many people get upset about this subject. :roll: Isn't that why you want to bring this subject up?

Many denominations are brain washed in their theology, Pentecoastal's tongues, Catholics' Mary and pope and peter woshipping, Baptists' and others OSAS and etc. But all of you have something in common it is about military. You get in cohoots in killing the evil enemy in the name of Jesus.

Did you know that pride is the only sin that God will actually resist? It has caused many christians to fall and is a multiheaded monster.
Just when you think you have a little humility, there it is to make you (proud) of that too.
I hate having to deal with my pride! Do you hate yours?

 

[stovebolts]

OK, everyone,

Tell me then which denomination doesn't approve of military? I haven't found any, except JW.

I am not JW.

Here ya go, now you have two... funny, they didn't fully believe in the trinity either...

http://www.coptic.net/EncyclopediaCoptica/

 

[gingercat]

Why are guys focusing away from topic? It seems that you don't want to talk aout military. Talking about military is pride? how so? If you don't want to talk about it just dont join it. Why so much personal attack? :roll: :roll:

 

[thessalonian]

Whoever posts on this thread needs to read Romans 13. God gives to some the authority of the sword. This to defend nations and keep order.

 

[Drew]

This issue has always troubled me. While I am not ready to take a "fully pacifist" position, I do think that we need to move in a more pacifist direction as a society.

I think of Jesus' teaching from Matthew 5: "Do not resist an evil person". I worry that we may not be taking this teaching seriously enough. This is a complex issue and, for the present, I do believe in the acceptability of a defensive military. However, I think we need to always pursue peaceful options until we are really backed up against the wall.

Even though I somewhat grudgingly accept the need for a defensive military, I do think involvement in certain military activities is unacceptable for a Christian. Example: being involved in the development of nuclear weapons that clearly will be used to inflict civilian casualties. I presently cannot see how this can be reconciled with being a follower of Jesus. But I certainly am interested in hearing from those who think otherwise.

 

[Duder]

..

Greetings, Gingercat -

Some Christian institutions in America that stress pacifism are the Society of Friends (Quakers), the Mennonites. the Amish and the Church of the Brethren.

The issue you raised in your OP is the main one that I am struggling with in my life right now. Jesus' teaching in Matthew, Chapter 5 about not returning force for force is one of the most crucial facets of his message to us, I believe. And yet, I find that I do not practice it very well. I do not turn the other cheek. I find myself at times approving of war. Thus, there is a disconnect between what I admire about the Lord's teaching and what I do. I think that makes me a hypocrite.

It seems to me that Jesus intends to be taken seriously in the Sermon on the Mount. He really wants us to avoid meeting force with force. And I think it would be inconsistent to say that we should be peaceful as individuals while it is okay for our nation to go to war. Nations are groups of individuals. Can numbers make it okay?

I am very interested to hear what others have to say about this.

Blessings,

Duder

..

 

[Drew]

[And I think it would be inconsistent to say that we should be peaceful as individuals while it is okay for our nation to go to war. Nations are groups of individuals. Can numbers make it okay?

This is a good point although I think there is a kind of conceptual distinction between being willing to embrace pacifism as an individual and as a collective.

If I elect to adopt pacificism as an individual, I effectively choose not to defend my own life. As a responsible competent adult, I can make that choice for myself. But what about the 5 year old who may not be willing or able to make such a decision? What choice should be made on his behalf? And what about others - the very nature of a military involves a collective commitment on the part of a nation. Each person cannot have their own army. So what we do if others are not willing to embrace pacificism? From a pragmatic perspective, we can be assured that only a tiny fraction of any society will be truly pacifist, so we know every country will have a military.

On the other hand, I see no conceputal distinction between the idea of a police force and a military. I know some people who are opposed to the idea of a military, yet are happy with the existence of armed police. This strikes me as inconsistent.

On the whole, if God wants individuals to embrace non-violence, I think He also wants the same of nations.

 

[Duder]

[And I think it would be inconsistent to say that we should be peaceful as individuals while it is okay for our nation to go to war. Nations are groups of individuals. Can numbers make it okay?

This is a good point although I think there is a kind of conceptual distinction between being willing to embrace pacifism as an individual and as a collective.

If I elect to adopt pacifism as an individual, I effectively choose not to defend my own life. As a responsible competent adult, I can make that choice for myself. But what about the 5 year old who may not be willing or able to make such a decision? What choice should be made on his behalf? And what about others - the very nature of a military involves a collective commitment on the part of a nation. Each person cannot have their own army. So what we do if others are not willing to embrace pacifism? From a pragmatic perspective, we can be assured that only a tiny fraction of any society will be truly pacifist, so we know every country will have a military.

On the other hand, I see no conceputal distinction between the idea of a police force and a military. I know some people who are opposed to the idea of a military, yet are happy with the existence of armed police. This strikes me as inconsistent.

On the whole, if God wants individuals to embrace non-violence, I think He also wants the same of nations.

...

Hello, Drew -

The points you raise highlight just how difficult this whole thing is. But no one ever said following Jesus was going to be an easy proposition, did they? :-?

What you said about defending of a 5-year-old is the reason I have not wholeheartedly adopted pacifism. Can we conclude that the Lord himself would not have used force in the last resort if someone tried to harm a child in His presence? Could any principle, however noble and holy, stay my hand from striking a brute who attacks my child or yours? There seem to be times when violence is a moral necessity. .

On the other hand, does justifying violence in one case send us down a slippery slope? Does it make it easier to justify violence again in a different kind of situation? Because, heck, if we have to use violence in defence of children, surely we should use it on behalf of other innocent persons. And after a while, we may find ourselves bombing cities with innocent children in them because we think their leaders have WMDs.

There has got to be a way of balancing Jesus' advice about non-violence with the clear need for violence in some emergencies.

Does it satisfy Jesus teaching to reserve violent action only for times when your best intelligence and creativity fails to find any other means of solving the emergency situation?

Or is that a cop-out?

Man, this is difficult..

,

 

[gingercat]

Thank you dueder for your information. I don't have any denomination you have mentioned.

I also thank you for your comments. It is not widely accepted practice in this country's christianity.

It seems to me is just excuse when they are saying love your enemy is for individual and not for the government and we should cooperate with them..

 

[Imagican]

It is obvious from the teaching of our Savior that at one point in our spiritual evolution that one day to offer perfect love is to turn the other cheek. Unfortunately the world hasn't reached this point yet and may never until it is re-formed. To turn the other cheek is to offer utter faith and love. We have much that we need to work on FIRST before we can even 'dream' of this.

Throuhout the entire OT there have been times that God has led those that belong to Him into battle. Christ didn't change the will of God. And the Words that He offered are not limited to the ones that one chooses to listen to. The Bible is a 'total' story, not "just" the NT. God has NOT changed in the least. He is STILL the SAME God that He has ALWAYS been. And I believe that what Jesus refered to was forgiveness of individuals. He did NOT speak of a nation slapping one in the face, He spoke of an individual act on an individual basis. We are to fight the 'good fight' regardless.

And ginger, if what you offer were even close to the truth, then how could you possibly validate the day that Christ will return and destroy, (through war), His enemies? Obviously you have misinterpreted the Word to suit your own agenda. There is a time for ALL things and this includes fighting and killing to protect that which matters most.

I am in NO way validating the present conflict with which we find ourselves involved with in the middle east. I don't agree with it's purpose or it's present situation. I think that it was created based on false premiss and a bunch of lies for what true purpose we will have to wait and let history sort that out. But that doesn't in the least take away from the fact that we need a strong army to defend us against our enemies. That's not just practical it only takes a tiny bit of common sense to understand it is manditory in the world in which we live today. The important thing to remember is making sure that those that control it are able to be righteous in their decisions and able to be held accountable to doing things for the 'right' reason.

 

[Imagican]

Whoever posts on this thread needs to read Romans 13. God gives to some the authority of the sword. This to defend nations and keep order.

Good point Thess.