Love your enemy

[Duder]

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Good morning, all -

There is another side to this thing that we have not touched on yet. Some of us have trouble with the cheek-turning philosophy for the reason that it seems to let the bad guy off scott-free. It offends our sense of justice to just sit passively and do nothing, allowing the brute to have his way.

If that is your objection to Christian non-violence, perhaps you have not fully understood Christian non-violence. Jesus is not asking us to just take it, to wuss out and do nothing. He is asking us to respond to violent situations with an intelligent and gutsy strategy.

Try this experiment: Pretend I am facing you. Make a motion as if to strike me on the left cheek. Most people are right-handed, so use your right hand. You will immediately notice that you have to take a backhanded swing if you want to hit the right side of my face.

In the society in which Jesus lived it was demeaning and insulting to be struck with a backhand blow. It was they way you would hit a slave or some other person you saw as being beneath you.

Now, try to hit me if I turn my right cheek to you. You will find that this time you have to swing forehand. True, I have let you hit me twice, and it stings. But I have gotten the better of you by forcing you to take a forehand swing at me and treat me as an equal. No one living in Jesus culture who witnessed this display could have missed the point I have made. I have shown you and everyone watching that 1) you were acting like a stupid brute and that 2) I am not a person who is your slave or who is beneath you. My cheeks hurt, but I won - and I won without resort to violence.

That, I think, is Jesus' point. Don't ignore violence - but face it and defeat it with intelligence without resorting to violence yourself.

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[Packrat]

nd you are not the pacifist that you think you are. You are very quick to defend yourself or attack others as you see fit. You just use words as your weapon of choice instead of jets and tanks.

Words can sometimes be a better weapon than a gun. Though I don't believe that war will end further wars but only propagate hatred, I do believe that there is a season for all things. There is a time for war and a time for peace. But we should consider the times and determine for ourselves whether war or peace is merited. Peace, I think, should be prime and be one of our first avenues of thought. A military is needed, but we should not be so caught up in a physical military as we should be with a spiritual one. I believe ultimate peace can only be achieved when one of the people pointing guns at each other decides to drop theirs. They still may be shot, and the next time may be the same after that, and after that the same. Afterall, who said that the struggle for peace would be anything other than agape love?

Wars are not strictly wars and do not strictly mean that one must kill their enemy or be killed. There is no real world but what you make. There have been battles in history where soldiers of opposing armies have gotten together to celebrate holidays and make friends with one another. After that, it was harder for them to keep fighting each other so completely new soldiers had to be brought in to replace these men so their friendship could be broken and the war continue to determine a victor. But the victorious were those who conquered war and replaced it with a measure of peace.

 

[Imagican]

Good point Duder.

Now, what we need to consider is this reference was ONLY to a slap in the face, obviously meant to belittle the one slapped. Now, should we also react in the same manner to one that would threaten 'serious' harm to ourselves or others? Should we simply 'roll over' and let ourselves be 'raped' from a different angle? I think not.

And I still offer that we have been given MANY examples of God empowering those that were faced with just such conditions. When God has intervened in order to protect those that under normal situations would have been unable to protect themselves. If these aren't examples of how our own love should be offered, then I suggest that we have been given mixed messages that are quite confusing. Since God is NOT the author of such confusion, then I offer that these messages come from some other source. Either through misinterpretation or outright deception.

And, there is a BIG difference in stopping violence through violence and offering violence through anger. I don't have to hate or even be angry with another to STOP them from exhibiting adverse behavior towards me or my neighbor. If I were to shoot a rabid dog to protect those in it's path, I DO NOT have to do this out of anger or a sense of revenge. I would feel pity for the dog even as I pulled the trigger. But I would know in my heart that what I chose to do was best for EVERYONE, including the ending of the suffering of the sick dog. And this doesn't take a weak Christian, this takes a Christian that is able to perform and discern what is BEST under the circumstances. If we can avoid violence, by all means that is what should do. But when violence is unavoidable, for the benefit of those that are innocent, then by all means we should do what we can to ensure the elimination of such. That's not only being a Christian, through love, that's being a 'responsible' Christian that often would lead to being willing to lay down YOUR life for the life of your neighbor. Did Christ do or teach any less?

 

[gingercat]

That, I think, is Jesus point. Don't ignore violence - but face it and defeat it with intelligence without resorting to violence yourself.

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Thank you Duder, excellent point. :D

 

[gingercat]

And, there is a BIG difference in stopping violence through violence and offering violence through anger.

Now this is the most ridiculous excuse I ever heard. Violence is violence; with or without anger

 

[Packrat]

Should we simply 'roll over' and let ourselves be 'raped' from a different angle? I think not.

I don't believe so. I don't think that this analogy would be in keeping with what Duder was posting (if you were objecting to him). Rolling over so you can get raped a second time is not an intelligent way to win in a situation.

I think he did a better job of stating what needs to be done than I did - or just as well a one.

And, there is a BIG difference in stopping violence through violence and offering violence through anger.

Agreed. In ancient times, when an enemy was defeated it may have been wise to commit genocide so further conflicts between such people do not resurface and more life be lost and more suffering be caused in the end when the conflict could have been stopped then and there. This was the same concept we used when dropping the atom bombs on Japan (so I assume). It killed many civilians, but it may have prevented a greater loss of life and ended the war sooner. This was not an emotional response. We did this as a strategy.

But when violence is unavoidable, for the benefit of those that are innocent, then by all means we should do what we can to ensure the elimination of such.

True. A good whipping from your father will keep you in line better than a few warnings and 'counting to ten' ever would. From personal experience of course. ;-) But I think peace should sometimes be given that chance by a leap of faith in the most appropriate situations possible.

If those soldiers had not taken a chance with their lives to bring about a time of peace in war by celebrating holidays or bringing themselves closer through similar interests, then that moment of peace would have never been seen.

f we can avoid violence, by all means that is what should do.

That statement is pretty much a universal one and still stands, but we should reassess the situation and even in war try to find avenues to peace.

 

[gingercat]

Should we simply 'roll over' and let ourselves be 'raped' from a different angle? I think not.

Why is it such a hard question? Are you carrying around a weapon to protect yourself? Do you have a deadly weapon in your house to protect yourself and your family? Do you have to kill or harm the attacker to protect yourself?

 

[Imagican]

And, there is a BIG difference in stopping violence through violence and offering violence through anger.

Now this is the most ridiculous excuse I ever heard. Violence is violence; with or without anger

And I offer the ridiculousness of you denying the need for violence. If you are unable to discern the difference, then I offer that you've much to learn. When Christ Himself states that He Himself will fight in the final battle, you condemn Him also with your weak words.

No, I do not carry a weapon with me to protect myself. Yes, I have many weapons collected over the years, including guns. No, since coming to the Lord I have yet to use a weapon against another soul. And I guess the answer to the last question would be no also. Since I haven't had to face the situation I have NOT attacked or harmed an enemy to defend myself. But that doesn't change the fact that I would, not only to defend myself or a member of my family, but you too ginger. If I had no other way to stop someone from hurting you other than to use a weapon against them, i wouldn't even think twice about it. I would place myself in harms way to protect you from the violence of another. And not just you, because I know your name, but any stranger that I was capable of helping. Unlike some, I would have no fear in defending one that was in need of my help.

Obviously you have made statements that you now feel obligated to defend no matter how foolish the defense may be. I have yet to meet another that feels about this issue as you. If this were so, our country and planet would be rife with those that would have destroyed them by now. Ours is NOT to sacrifice our lives for NOTHING. Or, what's even worse, sacrifice it for the sake of evil.

We have many, many examples of how we are to deal with those that would needlessly harm or murder others. That you have no compunction to stand up for what's right doesn't mean that the same applies or even should apply to everyone. Perhaps yours is to 'lay down' and allow others to do to you as they will. But what I have been led to understand is different than this and you are certainly in NO position to judge me or anyone else that has been allowed to understand things that you obviously are unable.
We all have our place in the body, so yours is to offer no resistance to anyone for any reason. That's certainly NOT my place.

The principle that you offer 'sounds' good, ginger. But the part that you seem to be missing is the ability to discern when one should fight back and when one shouldn't. I am quite sure that God could have chosen a 'different' way to finally defeat evil other than a 'battle'. That ISN'T how it's going to be done however. Christ Himself stated that there would be wars and rumors of war before His return. He didn't state that these would be 'wrong' or even that we weren't to take part in them. What He did state was that there would be NONE like that in the end.

And we WERE told not only to resist evil, but to fight the 'good' fight. As far as you are concerned, you would offer that this is NOT true. Now who seems to have a problem with scripture? And I still offer that 'talk is cheap'. Easy to sit back and talk a good game, but once forced onto the field, few can perform up to their own standards. If you are one that can, more power to ya. But, watch what you ask for, for sometimes we get it, only in ways that we couldn't even have imagined before receiving it.

 

[TruthMiner]

Ginger,

If our country had never had a military capable of defending the freedoms that are existent, you wouldn't be offered the luxury of sitting at your computer in the freedom of your home typing such drivel. You would most likely be non-existent or at best a slave.

While I must admit that our present conflict in the middle east should have NEVER taken place, this doesn't change the FACT that if we had NO military or the desire to stand up and defend our freedom, we wouldn't have any.

So, while Jesus did teach us to turn the other cheek, and love our enemies, I believe that you would be hard pressed to even think such things much less act upon them if you were in slavery being beaten or threatened with death should you resist. Or worse, being raped at the will of your master or tortured for the sake of the thrill that you offer to those that ruled over you.

So, before you start ranting about the military, use your head a little bit. And I say that anyone that doesn't like this country or the freedoms that it offers, they should simply go out and find themselves a 'better' place to live. But that military that you so despise is the ONLY thing that has made it possible for you to reap the benefits that so take for granted.

And you are not the pacifist that you think you are. You are very quick to defend yourself or attack others as you see fit. You just use words as your weapon of choice instead of jets and tanks.

It seems your premise is that we should kill others to avoid suffering for Jesus.

 

[gingercat]

When Christ Himself states that He Himself will fight in the final battle, you condemn Him also with your weak words.

quote]


Now, it is Jesus' job what you are describing and our job and His job is completely different. He has authority to judge every one's eternal souls and we don't! Cant you see the big difference? We are not as big as Him. Please stop being so arrogant.

 

[gingercat]

It seems your premise is that we should kill others to avoid suffering for Jesus.[/quote]

Exactly! Exellent point! :D

 

[TanNinety]

When Christ Himself states that He Himself will fight in the final battle, you condemn Him also with your weak words.

quote]


Now, it is Jesus' job what you are describing and our job and His job is completely different. He has authority to judge every one's eternal souls and we don't! Cant you see the big difference? We are not as big as Him. Please stop being so arrogant.

I didn't know Jesus was a "Do as I say, not as I do" advocate.

Imagican puts forth a very tough question "do you turn the other cheek when you are getting raped?"
Should I expect my wife to defend herself or turn the other cheek and plead not to get raped and "hope" it wont happen in this instance ginger?

Also do you pluck out your eyes, chop your hand when they offend you and cause you to sin? Jesus said so! If not, why not?

 

[Packrat]

I think the best way for Christians to go about participating in wars is to participate for the right reason. They should understand that they may be participating as a tool to send others to hell who may have turned to Christianity provided they had more time. This is a major concern. By killing someone, you take the chance that they are unsaved and that you are helping to send them to hell. This is not your fault, but a choice they've made; still, you are being used as a tool for their eternal destruction.

You should also keep in mind your own life and faith. You will be faced with death. If you are about to die, are you really a Christian? Do you seriously believe that some guy thousands of years ago was resurrected by a powerful being no one to your knowledge has ever seen, heard, smelled, tasted, or the like? Things like this can come to your mind when facing a life or death situation. Where am I going after I die? It's easy to say you believe, but when you think about it - it's just as hard to believe in giant reptiles living thousands or millions (depending on your view of the earth) of years ago and are now extinct.

Finally, you should not kill to win, but you should kill in war to protect. Just make sure that what you're protecting is worth killing for. Governments try to make their pawns think that they are the best government or kingdom or whatever, but decide for yourself what is right. If you are killing an atheist in war to protect yourself, then is this the right decision? If you die, you are saved. If the atheist dies, he is dead. It's not likely you can decide this in the midst of battle, but you had better make sure beforehand that what you're fighting for is worth participating in violence (or killing) for.

 

[TruthMiner]

When Christ Himself states that He Himself will fight in the final battle, you condemn Him also with your weak words.

quote]


Now, it is Jesus' job what you are describing and our job and His job is completely different. He has authority to judge every one's eternal souls and we don't! Cant you see the big difference? We are not as big as Him. Please stop being so arrogant.

I didn't know Jesus was a "Do as I say, not as I do" advocate.

Imagican puts forth a very tough question "do you turn the other cheek when you are getting raped?"
Should I expect my wife to defend herself or turn the other cheek and plead not to get raped and "hope" it wont happen in this instance ginger?

Also do you pluck out your eyes, chop your hand when they offend you and cause you to sin? Jesus said so! If not, why not?

I never read Jesus to mean our hand should be physically cut off but that it should be cut off from what it is doing.

As to your other question, when Stephen was being assaulted with stones and being killed, he simply said "Forgive them" and suffered for the name of Jesus. This is the way of Jesus. Paul said the unspiritual person does not comprehend this.

 

[gingercat]

there are many ways to read the Bible; some read the Bible to look for the loop holes. It seems that you are reading to seek loop holes. This verse you are refering is just metaphor; Jesus is talking about the seriousness of sins.

I protect myself or any one who needs help from criminals; I just don't kill or harm anyone to do it, at least not on purpose!

"Love your enemy" is not metaphor. How do I know it? Because Jesus and His disciples killed or harmed noone, not even for selfdefence! They are our examples to follow!

 

[TanNinety]

there are many ways to read the Bible; some read the Bible to look for the loop holes. It seems that you are reading to seek loop holes. This verse you are refering is just metaphor; Jesus is talking about the seriousness of sins.

I protect myself or any one who needs help from criminals; I just don't kill or harm anyone to do it, at least not on purpose!

"Love your enemy" is not metaphor. How do I know it? Because Jesus and His disciples killed or harmed anyone, not even for selfdefence! They are our examples to follow!

I am sorry, I am not talking about "loving your enemies". I very much agree with that. I haven't said "do not love your enemies" in my post. If you could gather that from my post in any way than I apologize, I haven't even tried to hint towards that.

My question was strictly regarding "what do I expect my wife to do when someone tries to rape her". Should she turn the other cheek or defend herself? Because you seem to propose an idea of "turning your other cheek" to an extent where one also needs to pluck their eye out when one sins with their eyes.

 

[Packrat]

Also do you pluck out your eyes, chop your hand when they offend you and cause you to sin? Jesus said so! If not, why not?

Christ's argument, I think, was that it is better to enter Heaven maimed than to enter Hell whole. This is the same concept as, "It's better to arrive late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time." or some such thing. I forget how it goes exactly. If you're hand's going to cause you to commit a sin (maybe murder) cut it off so you do not doubt your faith and your faith fail you later and you damn yourself to hell by the failing of your faith and the clouding of your mind in sin. So basically if dismembering yourself keeps you from hell, then do it. I tend to think along the lines of gingercat on this one. I think Christ was not speaking necessarily literally but rather demonstrating the seriousness of sin.

 

[gingercat]

there are many ways to read the Bible; some read the Bible to look for the loop holes. It seems that you are reading to seek loop holes. This verse you are refering is just metaphor; Jesus is talking about the seriousness of sins.

I protect myself or any one who needs help from criminals; I just don't kill or harm anyone to do it, at least not on purpose!

"Love your enemy" is not metaphor. How do I know it? Because Jesus and His disciples killed or harmed anyone, not even for selfdefence! They are our examples to follow!

I am sorry, I am not talking about "loving your enemies". I very much agree with that. I haven't said "do not love your enemies" in my post. If you could gather that from my post in any way than I apologize, I haven't even tried to hint towards that.

My question was strictly regarding "what do I expect my wife to do when someone tries to rape her". Should she turn the other cheek or defend herself? Because you seem to propose an idea of "turning your other cheek" to an extent where one also needs to pluck their eye out when one sins with their eyes.

Please re- read my response above .

 

[TanNinety]

I protect myself or any one who needs help from criminals; I just don't kill or harm anyone to do it, at least not on purpose!

Not sure if we are going to be going in circles here, but how exactly is this "protection" going to take place without "harm" to the criminal?

I am not asking a generalized question so a generalized answer will not help me.

The actual situation in question is "a serial rapist trying to rape someone". How exactly is this someone going to "protect" themself without causing "harm" to the rapist? Just so we are not on different pages here, I am not asking a generalized criminal committing a crime situation. In the above rape situation how exactly is one supposed to "protect" without "harming" the rapist at the same time turning ones cheek?

PS: I am not attacking your position on "turning the other cheek" and I hope you don't take my posts otherwise.

 

[Imagican]

When Christ Himself states that He Himself will fight in the final battle, you condemn Him also with your weak words.

quote]


Now, it is Jesus' job what you are describing and our job and His job is completely different. He has authority to judge every one's eternal souls and we don't! Cant you see the big difference? We are not as big as Him. Please stop being so arrogant.

Yet you seem to 'think' that you have the ability that you would deny me.

I didn't know Jesus was a "Do as I say, not as I do" advocate.

Imagican puts forth a very tough question "do you turn the other cheek when you are getting raped?"
Should I expect my wife to defend herself or turn the other cheek and plead not to get raped and "hope" it wont happen in this instance ginger?

Also do you pluck out your eyes, chop your hand when they offend you and cause you to sin? Jesus said so! If not, why not?

I never read Jesus to mean our hand should be physically cut off but that it should be cut off from what it is doing.

Then I think you chose to read what you wanted to hear instead of what is stated.

As to your other question, when Stephen was being assaulted with stones and being killed, he simply said "Forgive them" and suffered for the name of Jesus. This is the way of Jesus. Paul said the unspiritual person does not comprehend this.

And Stephen was stoned FOR his belief in Christ. NO ONE HAS EVEN MENTIONED being persecuted FOR Christ. Here ya go, Would you let someone rape your mother, wife, or daughter and just stand there and forgive them? If your answer is YES, then I contend that there is NO love in you either of the simple kind that we are able to display ourselves, and certainly NO love of God or Christ within your soul. We are to take NO part in the evil that others do. If you don't get this one any better than the other, then I guess I kinda understand where you are coming from.

Truth Miner,

You make me wonder what kind of 'truth' you are looking for. So, you don't understand that when it is stated that if your 'eye' offends you, PLUCK IT OUT, that it doesn't simply say, 'look away', it literally states that you would be better off 'WITHOUT THE EYE SENDING YOU TO HELL'. I take it that you don't understand that this is stated in the same way that 'cutting ones hand off' is stated?

I'm not here to encourage anyone to do either. I believe that there is hopefully a 'better way'. I suggest that if you feel that you should NEVER defend yourself against those that would cause you harm: stay off the streets that I live on after the sun goes down. Otherwise you will quickly find that you may receive a bit of a blessing from the Lord later, but you will certainly suffer the folly of your actions right here and now. And those that you may ask that God forgive as they take everything you own, perhaps including your life, would most likely simply laugh at you right before pulling the trigger.

Guys, it's one thing to talk a good 'talk', but reality is obviously not where some of you choose to dwell. I hear you, I really do, but I believe that in just a few seconds if given the proper opportunity, that I could watch all of your talk crumble and see you drop to your knees and deny Christ just as Peter did. I can tell by the way ginger takes offense each time someone doesn't agree with her, that all this 'forgiveness' that she talks is NOTHING more than that. Miner, I think you are just here to have fun, for truth has NOTHING to do with what you offered.

So, you know how I feel about your statements. I have tried my best to offer understanding and empathy. That's NOT what either of you are looking for. I have tried to agree with what could be agreed with and that's not what you are looking for either. So I will close with this. I am glad that you have found the ability within your lives to emulate Christ perfectly. Unfortunately for EVERY OTHER PERSON ON THE PLANET, this is NOT SO. Please pray for us that we too may become perfect as you have managed to. Forgive us, for we know not what we do.

God Bless you guys.

MEC