Love

[Elijah674]

Several times Jesus is quoted as telling us to love one another, yet it seems to me people are more into fighting for power than they are loving one another. Am I mistaken? If not, why are so many people constantly fighting for power?

We need to define what LOVE is in theology [correctness] do we not?? True Agape Love is a Principle caused from ones Motive's as 'i' see it. Christ died on the cross with power? Or with an feeling good? Or an Loving PRINCIPAL?

SO? This LOVE surely is A POWER OF MATURE LOVE that is purposefully botched up by satan.

We know that there is NO CHEAP GRACE, the same with LOVE! But it is cheapened only by mankind making it so.

--Elijah

 

[smaller]

Jethro Bodine



While everything else you said is quite interesting, I think we need to stop here a moment.

Agape is desire.

Desire “a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen, strongly wish for or want (something)”
(Oxford Dictionary)

Feeling “an emotional state or reaction”
(Oxford Dictionary)

So, we’re looking at an emotion here in your view?

If so, how can we say that, other than degree perhaps, it’s not in the purview of any person? Military personnel, Policemen, firemen, Caregivers for the sick, practice a form of “desire for the highest and best of someone else”, all the time, sometimes by putting their lives on the line for others.

FC

I generally reject any presentation of 'God in need.' Such views are 'naturally' flawed. I believe the conveyance is anthropomorphic.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro Bodine



While everything else you said is quite interesting, I think we need to stop here a moment.

Agape is desire.

Desire “a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen, strongly wish for or want (something)”
(Oxford Dictionary)

Feeling “an emotional state or reaction”
(Oxford Dictionary)

So, we’re looking at an emotion here in your view?

Not exclusively. Not even sometimes. But it most certainly can be emotional.

As humans, what becomes of import or value to us is what then moves us emotionally. So agape can become a matter of the heart the more we learn about it and value it as an attribute of God. Particularly as we experience more and more that God purposely rewards a person with His manifest presence who chooses to obey the promptings of the Spirit and walk in agape.

If so, how can we say that, other than degree perhaps, it’s not in the purview of any person? Military personnel, Policemen, firemen, Caregivers for the sick, practice a form of “desire for the highest and best of someone else”, all the time, sometimes by putting their lives on the line for others.

FC

We are all made in the image of God and sometimes the attributes of God can be seen in even the most wicked of people. Like when natural people rise up in a sense of anger in the face of injustice.

The real test of agape is how it treats it's enemies. You'll be pretty hard pressed to find natural humans walking in agape toward someone who has hurt them terribly and in circumstances where there is every reason and benefit not to show agape toward them. But even then not entirely impossible I suppose, but certainly not as a growing and ever-increasing characteristic of that person as it (should be) in people committed to living for God. IOW, natural people are not characterized by agape...the true people of God are.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I generally reject any presentation of 'God in need.' Such views are 'naturally' flawed. I believe the conveyance is anthropomorphic.

s

I'm not sure he was suggesting that.

Love is desire. God's agape for us means he desires our best. He has our interests at heart. He doesn't 'need' to do that. But he does. If he 'needed' to do that then I think it would, by the very definition of what selfless unconditional love is, cease to be agape love. Agree?

 

[Former Christian]

Smaller

I generally reject any presentation of 'God in need.' Such views are 'naturally' flawed. I believe the conveyance is anthropomorphic.

It’s the bible itself that presents the God/human relationship in anthropomorphic terms. Humanity is created in the image and likeness of God. Something that continues as fallen as humanity is. That in itself makes God appear to humanity as an anthropomorphic being. But unlike other religions where God is brought down to man’s level, in the bible, man is being brought up to God’s level. Because that’s from whence he came. So that in actuality, the anthropomorphism is the same as Theomorphism. You have to realize that your rejection is directed toward the God who wrote the bible in the way he did. And that Jesus is sitting at the right side of God isn’t just an illusion for our sake.

Does God need humanity? You have to ask yourself, why would God create something he does not need? Was he just a funnin around? Why would he try to save something he does not need? Why would he send his only begotten Son to give eternal life to something he does not need? God isn’t a child that he does things for no other reason then self-gratification. God shows his maturity as one who works because there is a need to do so.

What I reject is when people try to make God so other that there can be no common ground between man and God. Jesus is both the son of man and the Son of God. That should have real meaning to Christians, but too often it does not.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Jethro Bodine

As humans, what becomes of import or value to us is what then moves us emotionally. So agape can become a matter of the heart the more we learn about it and value it as an attribute of God. Particularly as we experience more and more that God purposely rewards a person with His manifest presence who chooses to obey the promptings of the Spirit and walk in agape.

Are you saying that God does things for emotional reasons?

natural people are not characterized by agape...the true people of God are.

Doesn’t that imply that the love we’re speaking of is something that man in his natural state doesn’t or can’t do without the help of God? I.e., through the Spirit and as a fruit of the Spirit? And doesn’t that also imply that emotional love so common to man, isn’t what is being spoken of in relation to agape?

Love is desire. God's agape for us means he desires our best. He has our interests at heart. He doesn't 'need' to do that. But he does. If he 'needed' to do that then I think it would, by the very definition of what selflessunconditional love is, cease to be agape love. Agree?

If agape is desire, in the same sense as the common definitions of love, doesn’t that imply that agape can be as self-centered as centered in others? Which God being a jealous God would imply?

John stated that God is agape. Doesn’t that imply that it is an attribute of his being? And if this agape is a part of the essence of God, wouldn’t that mean that God must act in a certain way as a result? That is, it is something that God needs to do? Like we need to breathe to continue to physically live, as something that is inherent to our being so long as we are earthbound?

FC

 

[smaller]

Smaller
It’s the bible itself that presents the God/human relationship in anthropomorphic terms.

I was speaking specifically to the presentation that God is in need of anything from us. It is a general position of 'freewillers.' That God is in need of our love for example. The presentation is an imposition of 'mens' needs being equated to God.

Doesn't compute.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Humanity is created in the image and likeness of God.

Image and likeness does not equal 'same.' God in Christ for example was undoubtedly 'human' with one very large caveat...'without sin.'

And of course there are 'limitations' to 'image' to that- 'image,' and likewise likeness. These are interesting things to examine in text.

Something that continues as fallen as humanity is. That in itself makes God appear to humanity as an anthropomorphic being. But unlike other religions where God is brought down to man’s level, in the bible, man is being brought up to God’s level. Because that’s from whence he came. So that in actuality, the anthropomorphism is the same as Theomorphism.

I do reject the 'God in need' premise as it implies imperfection to God.

We really can't define or contain what God Perfection 'really' is or what that may consist of. But to say God is 'in need' is a somewhat 'natural' imposition of the viewers. All I'm sayin. It's not necessarily a fact by statement.

You have to realize that your rejection is directed toward the God who wrote the bible in the way he did. And that Jesus is sitting at the right side of God isn’t just an illusion for our sake.

Again, I reject the "God in need" presentation. I do not reject Gods Son, Gods Image nor any Word of same if that's what your implying by rejection.

Does God need humanity? You have to ask yourself, why would God create something he does not need?

I would only say that it pleased God to do so. That doesn't mean it's a need. It wouldn't have changed God one way or another. So, logic leads to 'God needs then pleasure' or 'God needs then to do something.'

Ultimately only God Himself can know and define His Full Intent and what that might be and consist of. When a viewer makes suppositions apart from text they are only guessing.

Was he just a funnin around? Why would he try to save something he does not need? Why would he send his only begotten Son to give eternal life to something he does not need? God isn’t a child that he does things for no other reason then self-gratification. God shows his maturity as one who works because there is a need to do so.

Well, you see the issues. The 'list' of our impositions when the door is cracked to the God in need position opens up a great place to make other folk bow down to those self imposed constructs.If I hadda nickel for every form of God idol believers stack up...you know the rest. I'm kinda wary of idols, even of my own making. All such are limited to our own sorry sights in any cases of elaborations. I'd prefer not to tamper and leave God Perfection as non-definable territory. It's safer and perhaps more respect like.

Picture any of us actually telling God who He Is or what He needs. The whole thought of that is quite funny to me. Even entertaining. But do I think that is going to happen? uh, no. IF so, I'd hopefully be the last guy in line.

What I reject is when people try to make God so other that there can be no common ground between man and God. Jesus is both the son of man and the Son of God. That should have real meaning to Christians, but too often it does not.
FC

I have no issues with Gods sharing some of Himself with all of us and there'd still be a plenty to go around for a long long long time. You might even agree with that? :yes

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you saying that God does things for emotional reasons?

No. But I don't have any reason to think God is not capable of being moved emotionally by what he does.



Jethro: natural people are not characterized by agape...the true people of God are.

Doesn’t that imply that the love we’re speaking of is something that man in his natural state doesn’t or can’t do without the help of God? I.e., through the Spirit and as a fruit of the Spirit?

Yes, without a doubt. Humans are simply not characterized by their selfless, unconditional love, particularly toward enemies and those who hurt us. Only through the Spirit can a person even begin to hope to begin to be known as a person who walks in some kind of predictable pattern of agape love for others.

And doesn’t that also imply that emotional love so common to man, isn’t what is being spoken of in relation to agape?

No. Because both human selfish love and God's selfless love can produce an emotional response in a person. Maybe what you're having a problem grasping is that emotions are the result of what we desire, not the desire itself. Desire can produce an emotional response in a person, or it can not--but that doesn't diminish the fact that the desire exists. I bet if you thought about it you could think of an example from your own life of a desire you seek to fulfill that has no emotion connected to it.

If agape is desire, in the same sense as the common definitions of love, doesn’t that imply that agape can be as self-centered as centered in others?

It would then at that point cease to be agape, the motive being what determines whether it's agape or not. Paul speaks of not having 'selfish ambition' in the same breath as "you should look...to your own interests" (Phil. 2:3-4 NIV1984), the motive of our self interest being the thing that makes the difference between the two points he's making in that passage.

Which God being a jealous God would imply?

No, because it is entirely possible to be jealous for another person's well-being. Parents with teenage kids should be able to understand this best of all. They know it's better that their kids make time with the family a bigger priority than time spent with outsiders who may have a negative influence on them. On the outside it might look like a parent's selfishly motivated jealousy, but in reality it's being jealous for the ultimate good of the teenager. That's the kind of relationship God often has with his own children.

John stated that God is agape. Doesn’t that imply that it is an attribute of his being? And if this agape is a part of the essence of God, wouldn’t that mean that God must act in a certain way as a result?

Yes! One of the profound truths I learned about agape is that God doesn't try real hard to agape, and just happens to be perfectly successful in that attempt, he literally IS agape love, through and through. He just doesn't 'do' agape..he IS agape. But as for us, we try real hard to be obedient to the promptings of the Spirit and the teachings of agape love and not live in what we really are by nature.

That is, it is something that God needs to do? Like we need to breathe to continue to physically live, as something that is inherent to our being so long as we are earthbound?

I don't believe he 'needs' to do it. He can't help but to be that way by his very nature, whether he has a people to show that agape to or not.

 

[Elijah674]

LOVE as well as with any ingredient of total perfection, (Adam was created Very Good God says) has every talent & ability going downhill after sin. True AGAPE LOVE had to be Born Again back to the start before sin. (THEY BECAME NAKED of Christ's Rightousness)

OK: From there on were there ones who never ever even heard of God that still had 'some Love'? Surely. Say that they did some good deeds even which some still do? And they do not give the credit to God who created mankind with this 'talent or LOVE' most likely? yet, it [[STILL CAME FROM GOD]]. Some say.. I DID THIS such or such thing?? Or I QUITE SMOKING perhaps? Yet, the will/power still originated with God.

So the bottom/line?? we MUST FIRST BE BORN AGAIN to have the Lord's recreated Agape LOVE! (other/wise the 'little' good done still will not keep us from the second eternal death. compare Luke 12:47-48 + Obad. 1:16)

--Elijah

 

[smaller]

LOVE as well as with any ingredient of total perfection, (Adam was created Very Good God says) has every talent & ability going downhill after sin. True AGAPE LOVE had to be Born Again back to the start before sin. (THEY BECAME NAKED of Christ's Rightousness)

OK: From there on were there ones who never ever even heard of God that still had 'some Love'? Surely. Say that they did some good deeds even which some still do? And they do not give the credit to God who created mankind with this 'talent or LOVE' most likely? yet, it [[STILL CAME FROM GOD]]. Some say.. I DID THIS such or such thing?? Or I QUITE SMOKING perhaps? Yet, the will/power still originated with God.

So the bottom/line?? we MUST FIRST BE BORN AGAIN to have the Lord's recreated Agape LOVE! (other/wise the 'little' good done still will not keep us from the second eternal death. compare Luke 12:47-48 + Obad. 1:16)

--Elijah

Adam was God's son. (Luke 3:38)

Now look, if that is the case HOW is it that Adam was not Perfect? Are we going to say Adam was Gods imperfect son? How does that not 'reflect' Adam's Father, God, being the same, imperfect?

The fact is that there was Adam as Gods son and there is/was the 'subjective placement' of Adam that God Himself did with Adam, with Divine Purposes. There is Adam. There are the 'conditions' of Adam.

Nearly everyone mistakes Adam with his subjective condition. They are not the same things. 1 Cor. 15: 42-45 goes into detail on the condition of the 'natural man,' Adam and all mankind.

We are all planted in weakness, dishonor, corruption and a 'natural body.' None of our 'actions' inclusive of mental gymnastics are going to 'change the facts' of our present natural conditions. They are what they are and no amount of applications of anything is going to change the facts of those matters.

There is then a 'natural man' and a 'spiritual man.' The first Adam and a Last Adam.

There are very solid and potent matters to observe about 'our' natural man and his subjective conditions. No one avoids these observations.

God Himself 'chose' to plant seed. Good seed, in a natural body, that we would break through this present dark/ground of dust and grow up in His Light into unto Himself.

And as in any 'natural' garden where there is 'fertilizer' in the ground to say it politely, there is also fertilizer of the 'spiritual' sort.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[for_his_glory]

James 4:
1 ¶ From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

FC

Excellent reply FC and I would also like to add these scriptures:

Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

 

[Elijah674]

Adam was God's son. (Luke 3:38)

Now look, if that is the case HOW is it that Adam was not Perfect? Are we going to say Adam was Gods imperfect son? How does that not 'reflect' Adam's Father, God, being the same, imperfect?

The fact is that there was Adam as Gods son and there is/was the 'subjective placement' of Adam that God Himself did with Adam, with Divine Purposes. There is Adam. There are the 'conditions' of Adam.

Nearly everyone mistakes Adam with his subjective condition. They are not the same things. 1 Cor. 15: 42-45 goes into detail on the condition of the 'natural man,' Adam and all mankind.

We are all planted in weakness, dishonor, corruption and a 'natural body.' None of our 'actions' inclusive of mental gymnastics are going to 'change the facts' of our present natural conditions. They are what they are and no amount of applications of anything is going to change the facts of those matters.

There is then a 'natural man' and a 'spiritual man.' The first Adam and a Last Adam.

There are very solid and potent matters to observe about 'our' natural man and his subjective conditions. No one avoids these observations.

God Himself 'chose' to plant seed. Good seed, in a natural body, that we would break through this present dark/ground of dust and grow up in His Light into unto Himself.

And as in any 'natural' garden where there is 'fertilizer' in the ground to say it politely, there is also fertilizer of the 'spiritual' sort.

enjoy!

smaller

I can't read your mind of what you 'think';) But where did 'i' say that Adam was not created PERFECT?? God say's 'VERY GOOD' & we know that He does not create sub/par anything! (Eze. 28 had a PERFECT Created one in heaven who fell)

What you seem to believe in part at least, is that the GODHEAD'S AGAPE LOVE by all of their created ones (recreated ones) were to MATURE to full unfailing FREE/WILL LOVE? Nah. 1:9 If so, I fully agree with that! There will be NO Robots in heaven or there would have been NO LOVE either, just more animals & the like.

---Elijah

 

[smaller]

I can't read your mind of what you 'think';) But where did 'i' say that Adam was not created PERFECT??

There was Adam, the son of God, and there were the factual conditions that Adam was placed into by God. Conditions that made Adam a 'subject to.' There was no 'eternally perfect dust body' given for example. Adam's body was subject to needs. Adam was made a 'natural' man. There is a common christian fantasy that before the fall, the actual 'act' of eating that Adam was Perfect and that is not the case whatsoever..

God say's 'VERY GOOD'

& we know that He does not create sub/par anything!

Oh please Elijah. Everything God creates is less than Himself by nature.

There was also 'knowledge of evil' there in the Garden as well. And deception courtesy of the deceiver.

One can be a perfect man and not be 'the same as God Himself.' A 'perfect devil' can be just that, a DEVIL.

(Eze. 28 had a PERFECT Created one in heaven who fell)

Sorry, common christian fairy tale. Jesus taught that Satan was a murderer and a liar from the beginning with 'no truth' in him. Never is Satan taught in the scriptures to be a Holy Perfect Angel who made some 'bad decisions.'

What you seem to believe in part at least, is that the GODHEAD'S AGAPE LOVE by all of their created ones (recreated ones) were to MATURE to full unfailing FREE/WILL LOVE?

Do I believe that man makes himself by his own freewill equal to GODHEAD'S AGAPE LOVE? Uh, that would be a firm no and never. Adam was placed 'under' and 'less' than Perfection.

Nah. 1:9 If so, I fully agree with that! There will be NO Robots in heaven or there would have been NO LOVE either, just more animals & the like.
---Elijah

Well, just try a little harder there E. I am sure over the course of countless eons you can make yourself God...

not. Another christian fallacy common in many 'free'will camps.

If Adam was so 'free' why did God 'lay the LAW' upon him?

We all know that the Law is specifically for 'the lawless.' (1 Tim. 1:19) If Adam was 'Perfect' before the fall, why the need for the Law?

s

 

[Scootaloo]

I wish everybody was able to love whoever they wanted.

 

[childeye]

Love is the cause and purpose of all things.

 

[Elijah674]

There was Adam, the son of God, and there were the factual conditions that Adam was placed into by God. Conditions that made Adam a 'subject to.' There was no 'eternally perfect dust body' given for example. Adam's body was subject to needs. Adam was made a 'natural' man. There is a common christian fantasy that before the fall, the actual 'act' of eating that Adam was Perfect and that is not the case whatsoever..



Oh please Elijah. Everything God creates is less than Himself by nature.

There was also 'knowledge of evil' there in the Garden as well. And deception courtesy of the deceiver.

One can be a perfect man and not be 'the same as God Himself.' A 'perfect devil' can be just that, a DEVIL.
Sorry, common christian fairy tale. Jesus taught that Satan was a murderer and a liar from the beginning with 'no truth' in him. Never is Satan taught in the scriptures to be a Holy Perfect Angel who made some 'bad decisions.'

Do I believe that man makes himself by his own freewill equal to GODHEAD'S AGAPE LOVE? Uh, that would be a firm no and never. Adam was placed 'under' and 'less' than Perfection.

Well, just try a little harder there E. I am sure over the course of countless eons you can make yourself God...

not. Another christian fallacy common in many 'free'will camps.

If Adam was so 'free' why did God 'lay the LAW' upon him?

We all know that the Law is specifically for 'the lawless.' (1 Tim. 1:19) If Adam was 'Perfect' before the fall, why the need for the Law?

s

You are beyond me! (one way or the other!) Take care.
Rev. 22
[8] And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
[9] Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

So in bottom/line God created faulty material. You do make for a good case, 'i' agree. Eze. 28

[12] Son of man, take up a lamentation (mourning) upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
[13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
[14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

[15] Thou [[wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.]]

Reagardless of who you attribute this to, the being was a covering cherub & said to be created.. + CREATED PERFECT befor sin!

And perfect did not find the creation created fully MATURE.

--Elijah

 

[smaller]

So in bottom/line God created faulty material. You do make for a good case, 'i' agree. Eze. 28

I really doubt the eternal fate of Adam resided in a compilation of wet dust. No, I completely doubt that.

[12] Son of man, take up a lamentation (mourning) upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
[13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
[14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

[15] Thou [[wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.]]

Reagardless of who you attribute this to, the being was a covering cherub & said to be created.. + CREATED PERFECT befor sin!

Perfect is a 'relative term' depending on what it is applied to. A perfect devil was what? Oh, yeah, a perfect DEVIL!

The notion that Satan was a holy angel gone south via making bad decisions just isn't there. And the text you cite has far deeper studies than just thinking the devil was perfect. Look at the 'stones.' Where else do we see those stones?

Why, in the breastplate of the High Priest! And in the foundation of the heavenly CITY. Yes, interesting God Is in these disclosures, if we can make it past our own subjective impositions.

And perfect did not find the creation created fully MATURE.

--Elijah

I don't see that in the text for demonic continuations. The devil in fact is the resistor of everything God Is, by Gods Own Design. He is the equivalent of spiritual fertilizer.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I wish everybody was able to love whoever they wanted.

Which love are you referring to? Agape, eros, philia, or storge?

 

[childeye]

=Scootaloo;612833]I wish everybody was able to love whoever they wanted.

Respectfully, your statement is hard to interpret. For example God requires we Love our enemies.

 

[tomxbeckett]

Love of God and Jesus Christ through the Holy Mother

A failing christian returns to the fold. GOD has bought me back to him. Seeing HIS LOVE in action has returned me to the fold. After many years of doubt - watching evil dominate the world and doubting that such a world could have a GOD I have seen the light. A recent trip to Indonesia brought me into contact with a group of great christian evangelists - Tom Baker and his team. They work hard to spread the christian message - THE WORD OF GOD - to those unsaved in Indonesia.
I witnessed angry, agressive muslims fall to their knees and pray as GOD entered their lives. Tom Baker and his team are filled with the 'LOVE OF GOD' and it emanates from them in a powerful aura that brings love and peace to all who meet them. Agression disappears, anger disapates and love enters the area. Muslims ask why Tom loves them when they hate him as a Christian heathen - an unbeliever - a desecrator of Allahs name. Then the love and peace of GOD overwhelms them and they end up praying alongside Tom. A miracle of GODs LOVE.
---link edited by staff.---
Tom Beckett