loving?

[shad]

There is no clear way to determine whether people are loving or not. Yes, some are plain rude and obnoxious but many are not so clear cut. You should let Jesus judge which is which. I am talking about those who are not so clear. There is abuse of using this word to make accusation, IMHO.

Yes, there is a clear way to determine whether people are loving or not. And it's outlined in 1 Corinthians 13:4-8. When you see people pretty much doing the opposite of these guidelines of what love is (whether done subtly or outright), then you can assume they are being unloving.

It is not clear cut even with this verse. Jesus' love is not the same as secular concept and many of us are using the same kind of measures of love with the secular concept.

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[Timothy]

The Word of God determines the truth for me. I can see on these forums that many people largely ignore the scriptures coupled with the facts. They compliment each other very well. I have seen many people present the truth about religion and the world in general while using the scriptures to illustrate their points.

See there is the kicker, if I believe that God's word determines my truth, and you believe it for you, then who's right. I will ignore the fact that this statement reads like "I'm always right and never wrong", a man of God is the first to admit he is fallible. The scriptures can be taken out of context and manipulated to say just about anything. The scripture as a whole is important, not individual parts. That is why the scripture confirms itself so much in the Bible, that is to say things are repeated. There is no one greater then God for Him to swear to His truth, so he confirms himself (Hebrews 6: 13).

There will be times when Christians disagree. It happens, threads across this board testify to that. But there is a few basic principals that are important to follow especially in those times. A firm belief that you are always right does not justify any treatment of ill toward another believer. Anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires (I quoted that scripture in my first post I won't repost it, scroll up :P). Now I'm not saying you spoke harshly or angrily I'm only making a point via an example.

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.38 This is the first and great commandment.39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:37-39

Pretty significant verse there. Notice that all the law and the prophets hang on those 2 commandments. They revolve around love. Now that's Jesus speaking. The scripture here is pretty clear on one thing that churches and Christians overlook now days is that love. It should be as motivating factor in all we do and a divining rod. We rebuke a brother out of love, not anger. We teach out of love not to over power, we speak out of love, not anger. We need to learn this. God is love (1 John 4:16).

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another
1 John 4:7-11

If we don't love as Christ loved then we cannot say we dwell in Christ. How is a harsh, cold, and angry rebuttal an act of love. Further more if The word says that anger does not bring about a righteous life that God desires (James 1:20), how is it a godly rebuke? And to be clear if you wouldn't want to be spoken to that way, then chances are you should keep your mouth shut. And I'm not just talking about lip service statement of "sure talk to me that way I like it" I'm talking in the truth of what lies in your heart, remember God knows your hearts content, he is your judge not bob forum buddy on other end of the internet.

We've got to get the truth from somewhere, God actually created teachers so do believe that there are people who have the truth and we all would do well to listen to them, even if what they are telling us does not sound anything but convicting.

Now this statement truly bothers me. It's not biblical to say our teaching must come from a man. It comes from the Holy Spirit. I could quote a number of scriptures on this but let me just quote this one.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1 John 2:27

To blindly follow a "teacher" is a recipe for doom. It's also a great way to let sin into your life. I went to college to be a minister, I've preached and taught in a number of settings. The second thing out of my mouth (first is always a prayer), is always "don't take my word for it, take it to the Word of God in study, and in prayer". I'm a man just like every other preacher, a man. I'm fallible and have bad days as well as good. Sometimes I get distracted and do not see things clearly. Aside from that fact, someone sitting in on the lesson will never gain ownership of the teaching without studying it in their personal walks. The percent of a lesson you forget when you exit a church would boggle your mind. Reciting your pastor's beliefs does not make them yours. They will not provide you with the fruit of the spirit without bringing them into your walk with personal study and prayer.

I hold to the fact that a pastor's Job is that of a Shepard. A Shepard leads his flock to food and water, but he does not shove it down their mouths. The difference between the two is the real Shepard will teach is flock how to feed themselves and to drink in the presence of God. It will help them learn how to walk with God on their own, partaking in the meat of God's word, the solid food, not just the milk fed to newborns. A bad pastor will say follow me and I'll follow God. The latter has a god complex and wants to lead. He is fallible and when he falls his flock will too. And I cannot count the number of times I've seen pastors fall and bring their whole church with them causing many to walk away from God.

My walk with God is so important to me, nothing holds precedence above it in my life. No single man, be him teacher, pastor, or prophet will have access to that walk except by me putting everything they teach to the light of God's word and prayer. I would highly encourage all to do the same. In the end it is you will have to Give account to God and playing a blame game of my pastor made me do it, just won't cut it.

Re:3:19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Do you think people always take kindly to correction?

Be careful here. When you enter in to correcting your brother you are putting yourself as a teacher. We already know that Every word we speak we will have to give account for(Mathew 12:34-37). We know that Judgment without mercy will be shown anyone who has not been merciful(James 2:13).

1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
James 3:1-2

James 3 goes on to say a good number of things about our tongue and really has a lot to say about this topic. I would suggest anyone go through it again. No man is perfect in speech or in action. It is far better to answer a misguided brother with a statement of love rather then of anger or other harsh emotion. It's far better to error on the side of mercy than judgment. Your speech determines so much of your walk and life. As James 3 says its the rudder of your whole body. Your mouth speaks an overflow of your heart (Mathew 12:34, Luke 6:45, Proverbs 27:19). Your speech, how you answer a brother, is important. Words hold power that we would all do well to be careful with.

 

[Timothy]

There is no clear way to determine whether people are loving or not. Yes, some are plain rude and obnoxious but many are not so clear cut. You should let Jesus judge which is which. I am talking about those who are not so clear. There is abuse of using this word to make accusation, IMHO.

Yes, there is a clear way to determine whether people are loving or not. And it's outlined in 1 Corinthians 13:4-8. When you see people pretty much doing the opposite of these guidelines of what love is (whether done subtly or outright), then you can assume they are being unloving.

It is not clear cut even with this verse. Jesus' love is not the same as secular concept and many of us are using the same kind of measures of love with the secular concept.

.

Those verses in 1 cor 13:4-8 give a pretty detailed idea of what love is. It's not all encompassing but it doesn't just say "Love" and leave it at that. Some things it says are roughly

Love is longsuffering.
Love is kind
Love does not envy
Love does not boast in ones self.
Love is not puffed up.
Love does not act unbecomingly
Love doesn't seek for itself
Love is not easily provoked
Love does not think of evil.
Love doesn't rejoice in inequity but in Truth
Love bears all things.
Love believes in God in all things, hopes in God in all things, and endures all things.

To say that it gives no clear cut description there...Well I just cannot understand that statement. It sounds like your trying to just ignore a verse you don't like.

 

[ronniechoate34]

See their is the kicker, if I believe that God's word determines my truth, and you believe it for you, then who's right. I will ignore the fact that this statement reads like "I'm always right and never wrong", a man of God is the first to admit he is fallible.

Oh I am fallible alright. We all are. I have gone wrong and in fact God has enlightened me of this fact on several occasions.


Where do you get your Word of God from? I used to believe that I was going to hell and in my mind there was no doubt. That didn't mean that I was right about it. Who teaches you? I know that there are always new things for me to learn.

The scripture as a whole is important, not individual parts. That is why the scripture confirms itself so much in the Bible, that is to say things are repeated. There is no one greater then God for Him to swear to His truth, so he confirms himself (Hebrews 6: 13).

I couldn't agree more. I have said it myself time and again. The scriptures do repeat themselves over and over in order to get the points across to us. Even prophesy in similitude is used for this purpose.

There will be times when Christians disagree. It happens, threads across this board testify to that. But there is a few basic principals that are important to follow especially in those times. A firm belief that you are always right does not justify any treatment of ill toward another believer.

I don't know how you are defining ill treatment.

Anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires (I quoted that scripture in my first post I won't repost it, scroll up :P). Now I'm not saying you spoke harshly or angrily I'm only making a point via an example.

Anger at sin is not only justifiable, it's called for, and so is humility and restraint. These things can work together for the good.

 

[handy]

Anger at sin is not only justifiable, it's called for, and so is humility and restraint. These things can work together for the good.

I agree with you fully on this Ronnie. The problem is, if one looks at the myriad of posts here, while anger is quite prominent, humility and restraint is much less so.

Nor is the anger so much about sin, but often more because someone is disagreeing with someone else regarding an issue.

When one is truly angry because of the sin of another here on the board, then there is no cause at all to blast that out on the open forum. Jesus tells us that we are to go to our brother in private, and the means to do just that is available via the private message feature here. These long wrangling squabbles in which one supposed Christian is mixing it up with another filled with ALL CAPS and bold texts to prove to the other just how wrong he is and how right I am are a poor, poor witness.

I know that Timothy is more than able to define ill-treatment, as you have asked him to, but I'll chime in with this:

Because I was disagreeing with a (former) member, I was told I had the spirit of Jezebel within me. Another example: I've seen some members here tell other members that their particular church is the Whore of Babylon. And there are those who tell others that they bear the Mark of the Beast. I could go on, but the point is made. It is those types of accusations that gives such a poor witness.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

Because I was disagreeing with a (former) member, I was told I had the spirit of Jezebel within me. Another example: I've seen some members here tell other members that their particular church is the Whore of Babylon. And there are those who tell others that they bear the Mark of the Beast. I could go on, but the point is made. It is those types of accusations that gives such a poor witness.

Word! Nicely stated and in my humble opinion completely true and accurate.

 

[shad]

Because I was disagreeing with a (former) member, I was told I had the spirit of Jezebel within me. Another example: I've seen some members here tell other members that their particular church is the Whore of Babylon. And there are those who tell others that they bear the Mark of the Beast. I could go on, but the point is made. It is those types of accusations that gives such a poor witness.

Yes handy, this is just one example of how we discern truth. It is clear that truth is so different from one another. Truth can be shown from different angles. Love is the same way too. We should not push our own way of "love" either. It is only a matter of opinion.

Love is not clear cut no matter how often we quote the verses. Most of us read it differently.

.

 

[handy]

Because I was disagreeing with a (former) member, I was told I had the spirit of Jezebel within me. Another example: I've seen some members here tell other members that their particular church is the Whore of Babylon. And there are those who tell others that they bear the Mark of the Beast. I could go on, but the point is made. It is those types of accusations that gives such a poor witness.

Yes handy, this is just one example of how we discern truth. It is clear that truth is so different from one another. Truth can be shown from different angles. Love is the same way too. We should not push our own way of "love" either. It is only a matter of opinion.

Love is not clear cut no matter how often we quote the verses. Most of us read it differently.

.

And, if I disagree with you here, Shad, will it be OK to tell me I have the spirit of Jezebel? Is that loving? Is it going to be more apt to cause me to listen to you?

 

[shad]

And, if I disagree with you here, Shad, will it be OK to tell me I have the spirit of Jezebel? Is that loving? Is it going to be more apt to cause me to listen to you?

I am sorry handy, no I did not mean that. What I meant was he might believe so.

I have been reading your posts and I believe that is malicious.

 

[handy]

See, this is where, as the old saying goes, "the rubber meets the road" for us Christians. We can certainly disagree with each other, so often it is through working through a disagreement that truth is arrived at.

But, not if the whole conversation is shut down through harsh, malicious words and an unloving attitude. I am glad that we are having this discussion, it's really necessary. One only need to to the Dead Threads forum and read through the threads that were locked because of bickering that long left the OP behind. Read through those rancorous threads and then ponder this:

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

This is so true. When one hears a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal, one's first reaction is to plug the ears. One cannot then receive truth with one's ears plugged. We are being told here that if we are but clanging cymbals, then the Spirit cannot work His gifts through us. Since the gifts are there to edify the body, then the whole Body of Christ suffers, because of the lack of love.

There is a lot of truth in those Dead Threads, the one's that were locked and removed to the bottom of the Index. A lot of truth, but truth that wasn't listened to, didn't change a mind, truth that was trampled on because of a lack of love.

We can do better than this, my brothers and sisters. We surely can.

 

[prough91]

Hi all! I haven't been here long and would like to throw my two cents in. There are times, I have found on different boards that I've been to, that people are malicious for the sake of being malicious, but I have also seen people take things said in a different manner than they were intended. I've seen a few people on this site that kinda look like they just like arguing, but there looks like there's a lot of cool people here too. On a side note, Handy, who is Boise State playing?

 

[handy]

Hi prough, and welcome to the forum!!!

As for your side note, Texas Christian University. This is sure to be a great game, even if the BCS copped out by having the 2 non-BCS teams play each other like kids regated to the kitchen table away from the grown ups, just like a bunch of cowa....


Opps! That's right, this thread is all about being loving.

 

[ronniechoate34]

The fact is the whore of babylon does exist, God has made revelations concerning this. It's not hard to connect the dots and that's what God has brought some to do. And then He tells them to show others.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

The fact is the whore of babylon does exist, God has made revelations concerning this. It's not hard to connect the dots and that's what God has brought some to do. And then He tells them to show others.

To handy's point, there is a way to lovingly show people the truth and then the other way. We must avoid the "other" way.

 

[ronniechoate34]

The fact is the whore of babylon does exist, God has made revelations concerning this. It's not hard to connect the dots and that's what God has brought some to do. And then He tells them to show others.

To handy's point, there is a way to lovingly show people the truth and then the other way. We must avoid the "other" way.

I do understand that.


I used to post very few words of my own, I relied heavily on the scriptures to answer everything. It really upset people a great deal. They accused me of many things, and were personally attacking me in many instances. Some people told me they didn't even read the scriptures I was posting and others called them out of context, but it upset people. I always asked how they were out of context and never once got an explanation. Now majorly when I post scriptures I post many of the surrounding verses and make the meaningful scriptures bold.


The point is that the scriptures were upsetting people and not me. I know I used them correctly. What's your opinion on what went wrong? I have my own but I would like to hear yours.

 

[GojuBrian]

Pretty much everyone here who holds strong beliefs regarding politics or religion has been personally attacked. Try not to take this online stuff too seriously, we aren't lawmakers nor are we perfect. If we could all practice what we actually believe we wouldn't be human.

When discussing online try to talk to people civally like they are sitting at the table with you, then tell them to go pound sand.

 

[handy]

Yes, exactly Areo!

I'd like to use your post, Ronnie, regarding the Whore of Babylon, in order to more closely look at how we stray from being in loving disagreement to crossing the line into unloving and un-Christian arguing.

The problem with the whole "Your (church, organization) is the Whore of Babylon" issue, is that there are just as many other theories out there that attempt to define who the Whore is. Top contenders are the Roman Catholic Church, America, Jerusalem, Liberal Churches, the religion of Islam, Humanistic thought, Atheism, etc. etc. etc. Each of these have proponents who declare that God has revealed to them that their particular choice is the "real" Whore. Since they all cannot be right, either all or all but one are wrong.

There is an old saying that is very wise, "One should not shout where the Scriptures are silent". The Scriptures describe the Whore, the Scriptures do NOT specifically say that the Whore is such, such or such. Which is why there is such disagreement and diversity of interpretations when it comes to the subject.

Which brings me back to the point of this thread: We can be certain in our own heart what something is, or what a passage means. This doesn't mean that a: we are correct, b: that even if we are correct, other Spirit filled Christians will automatically believe us, c: that we have the right to denounce and castigate anyone who does disagree with us, or even d: publicly call into question the Christianity of anyone who disagrees with us.

What would be far more effective would be to show, again and again and again if necessary, from the Scriptures, why one believes the way one does and pray that God's truth will be known. If the Spirit truly has revealed to one who the Whore of Babylon actually is, then the Spirit is more than capable of revealing to the rest of the Church as well. One becoming a "clanging cymbal" is more likely to hinder the Spirit in this rather than be used of the Spirit in it.

 

[ronniechoate34]

Yes, exactly Areo!

I'd like to use your post, Ronnie, regarding the Whore of Babylon, in order to more closely look at how we stray from being in loving disagreement to crossing the line into unloving and un-Christian arguing.

The problem with the whole "Your (church, organization) is the Whore of Babylon" issue, is that there are just as many other theories out there that attempt to define who the Whore is. Top contenders are the Roman Catholic Church, America,Jerusalem, Liberal Churches, the religion of Islam, Humanistic thought, Atheism, etc. etc. etc. Each of these have proponents who declare that God has revealed to them that their particular choice is the "real" Whore. Since they all cannot be right, either all or all but one are wrong.

I didn't define any whore of Babylon in my post. I simply stated that one exists and it has been revealed to some so that teaching can take place. Of course the devil will always refute the truth and confuse the people. That way there will be an ebb in the flow of truth. That shouldn't stop it from flowing though.

There is an old saying that is very wise, "One should not shout where the Scriptures are silent". The Scriptures describe the Whore, the Scriptures do NOT specifically say that the Whore is such, such or such. Which is why there is such disagreement and diversity of interpretations when it comes to the subject.

The whore was been signified to John, to signify means to show by signs. Don't you think God is still showing us the same thing? We should make it a point to read and understand the Book of Revelation.And the scriptures are not silent about many practices that so called Christians participate in. The problem is that people fail to properly apply the scriptures to everyday situations and encounters.

Which brings me back to the point of this thread: We can be certain in our own heart what something is, or what a passage means. This doesn't mean that a: we are correct, b: that even if we are correct, other Spirit filled Christians will automatically believe us, c: that we have the right to denounce and castigate anyone who does disagree with us, or even d: publicly call into question the Christianity of anyone who disagrees with us.

Okay. No one is denying you anything you feel that you rightly deserve.

What would be far more effective would be to show, again and again and again if necessary, from the Scriptures, why one believes the way one does and pray that God's truth will be known. If the Spirit truly has revealed to one who the Whore of Babylon actually is, then the Spirit is more than capable of revealing to the rest of the Church as well. One becoming a "clanging cymbal" is more likely to hinder the Spirit in this rather than be used of the Spirit in it.

Well,,,like I have already said, I have not defined the whore of Babylon. And the scriptures have proven to make people angry at me in the past. I don't neglect posting them because it hurts me when they get upset, it's because I am tired of people trampling them.

 

[handy]

Just want to say Ronnie, I didn't mean for you to take my post personally. I was just using the "Whore of Babylon" as a means to point out how and why so many threads go south. I know that you haven't defined who the "whore" is .

 

[shad]

I would like to add that I started this thread because it seems some abuse this phrase to silence the whole truth.

Many people believe if you speak politically incorrect or are not accepted by the majority, you are not loving.

.