Luke 22

[Danus]

The question that comes to my mind then is if he in fact repented, then why hang himself? If he truly repented, I wouldn't think he would feel so lost, would he?

Jesus made reference to Judas perhaps feeling, or wishing he'd never been born. Matt 26....forget the verse, but I take it as Jesus sort of knowing how Judas would feel after. I think he was just so upset, he did what he did. Maybe he realized what he missed. He was in the presents of God & he missed it.

 

[Deborah13]

The question that comes to my mind then is if he in fact repented, then why hang himself? If he truly repented, I wouldn't think he would feel so lost, would he?

Please read my post as to the word translated as "repented", "repented himself", "remorse". As used when speaking about Judas.

It a different word in the Greek than what is used for the translation of "repent" in salvation, justification, etc. verses.

 

[JCitoL]

The question that comes to my mind then is if he in fact repented, then why hang himself? If he truly repented, I wouldn't think he would feel so lost, would he?

judas was not able to forgive itself the fact that he sold out Jesus, that's why he encroached upon his own life, and this shows that he in principle was righteous - after all he was one of the twelve disciples of Jesus

Blessings

 

[Deborah13]

judas was not able to forgive itself the fact that he sold out Jesus, that's why he encroached upon his own life, and this shows that he in principle was righteous - after all he was one of the twelve disciples of Jesus Blessings

I hope you're right and I am wrong.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

judas was not able to forgive itself the fact that he sold out Jesus, that's why he encroached upon his own life, and this shows that he in principle was righteous - after all he was one of the twelve disciples of Jesus

Blessings

And what principle is that?
The Bible shows that no one is righteous; Romans 3:10.
We are only made righteous by believing in Jesus as our savior and repenting of our sins.
There's no indication that Judas ever cried out to Jesus for forgiveness.

 

[JCitoL]

And what principle is that?
The Bible shows that no one is righteous; Romans 3:10.
We are only made righteous by believing in Jesus as our savior and repenting of our sins.
There's no indication that Judas ever cried out to Jesus for forgiveness.

there is not also whatever indication that judas believed in another lord/god, but it is quite visible that he believed in Jesus and God the Father after he was a disciple of Jesus for 3 years, and also if every human must cry out to Jesus that be possible to be saved, then how many people will have the chance to do it?!, but it is quite visible that such a principle is not sufficiently effective, and that Jesus is the Lord Himself Who is the overall saviour and Who doesn't need a human word that be able to save one or another person, because God is absolutely omnipotent

Blessings

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

judas was not able to forgive itself the fact that he sold out Jesus, that's why he encroached upon his own life, and this shows that he in principle was righteous - after all he was one of the twelve disciples of Jesus

Judas was not a righteous man, and he almost certainly died in his sins. One, his sorrow was absolutely not to repentance, but personal remorse that his plot failed. It is clear from the historic setting in which Judas operated, he was a radical Zealot who's efforts that got Christ condemned were aimed at forcing Jesus to bring about His kingdom, thus routing Rome and establishing Israel as the center of the world again. This is what the Zealots thought would happen when Messiah came. You're quite right in that Judas believed that Jesus was Messiah, but he did not believe the message Jesus had preached for three years. In fact, Judas probably hadn't even heard the message of personal reconciliation to God as it was intended, seeing Jesus only as a means to an end, i.e., the reestablishment of Israel to preeminence.

Matthew 27 NASB
3 Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders. [emphasis added]
​

The word "remorse" is the Greek metamellamai and means personal regret, not a Godly sorrow (see 2 Corinthians 7:10) leading to repentance. Though the word has been translated "repent" in other venues -- not the Bible -- the only repentance that occurs with metamellomai is a personal decision never to place one's self in a compromising or uncomfortable situation again, because it is embarrassing. While it cannot be stated unequivocally one way or another based on what the Bible says about the condition of Judas' heart, his remorse and his suicide suggest something other than righteousness.

 

[eddif]

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Hebrews 7:25
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

If I missed someone else that used these scriptures I am sorry.

eddif

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

there is not also whatever indication that judas believed in another lord/god, but it is quite visible that he believed in Jesus and God the Father after he was a disciple of Jesus for 3 years, and also if every human must cry out to Jesus that be possible to be saved, then how many people will have the chance to do it?!, but it is quite visible that such a principle is not sufficiently effective, and that Jesus is the Lord Himself Who is the overall saviour and Who doesn't need a human word that be able to save one or another person, because God is absolutely omnipotent

Blessings

Hi JCitol,

Could you please use some scripture to back up what you are saying?
I can't seem to find anything in the Bible that agrees with you.

 

[JCitoL]

Judas was not a righteous man, and he almost certainly died in his sins. One, his sorrow was absolutely not to repentance, but personal remorse that his plot failed. It is clear from the historic setting in which Judas operated, he was a radical Zealot who's efforts that got Christ condemned were aimed at forcing Jesus to bring about His kingdom, thus routing Rome and establishing Israel as the center of the world again. This is what the Zealots thought would happen when Messiah came. You're quite right in that Judas believed that Jesus was Messiah, but he did not believe the message Jesus had preached for three years. In fact, Judas probably hadn't even heard the message of personal reconciliation to God as it was intended, seeing Jesus only as a means to an end, i.e., the reestablishment of Israel to preeminence.

Matthew 27 NASB
3 Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders. [emphasis added]
​

The word "remorse" is the Greek metamellamai and means personal regret, not a Godly sorrow (see 2 Corinthians 7:10) leading to repentance. Though the word has been translated "repent" in other venues -- not the Bible -- the only repentance that occurs with metamellomai is a personal decision never to place one's self in a compromising or uncomfortable situation again, because it is embarrassing. While it cannot be stated unequivocally one way or another based on what the Bible says about the condition of Judas' heart, his remorse and his suicide suggest something other than righteousness.

we understand your point, but do not forget that namely Jesus Christ is the Good Shepherd Who has said:

John 10:11-18 "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.",

Matthew 18:10-14 "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.",

Matthew 12:10-13 "And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other."

why did not Jesus get away when He knew that the pharisees and scribes can catch Him?!, He was able very easy to abscond, but stayed there as though to wait for someone, e.g. for some lost sheep of His fold, He knew that judas knew that place:

John 18:1-3 "When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples. And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons."

here is how Jesus behaved exactly as He has said according to the above biblical passages, because namely He is the Good Shepherd, while in that case judas was the lost sheep of His fold, or how can you imagine the Lord Himself Who is the Good Shepherd to forsake His lost sheep and thus to discredit Himself towards the whole world?!, hardly for Him was preferable to run away from His responsibility, but here is how He readily gave His life for the lost sheep:

John 18:4-5 "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.",

Luke 22:47-48 "And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him. But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?"

apparently it is quite visible that Jesus went and waited there specially for judas, because why He to risk His life vainly?! - what's the point?!, but there must be a really good cause of life-saving act because of some human who is in trouble, but in the case that man came to sell out Jesus, because he was possessed by satan being thus as a greatest apostate - his soul was in great danger, and that man was one of the twelve i.e. one of the most direct disciples of Jesus, then how much more judas was a sheep of His fold?!, and if Jesus has saved one villain(Luke 23:42-43), then how much more His most direct disciple?!, moreover not they chose to be His disciples, but He chose and called on them

John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you"

let's do not make God unfair/lying

Blessings

 

[JCitoL]

Hi JCitol,

Could you please use some scripture to back up what you are saying?
I can't seem to find anything in the Bible that agrees with you.

read the above reply(#50)

Blessings

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

let's do not make God unfair/lying

"We" aren't. "We" are acknowledging that not only is He loving, but He is also just, not fair. Nothing you have quoted prevents Him from being just in punishing sin. No where does God say He is fair, only that He is just.

Judas had a choice. He did not have to act as he did. Had he not, another would have been raised up to betray the Master. But God knew He would act exactly as He did, and therefore did not have to prepare a "contingency plan." God knew Judas would surrender to his own arrogance and greed, and betray Jesus. In many ways, Judas was precisely like today's politicians, Republican or Democrat. Many believe any means is justified by the end. Judas so believed. He thought by betraying Christ to the authorities, Jesus would throw off His bonds and declare the Kingdom of God forthwith. Judas didn't understand the plan. None of the disciples did. But Judas was the only one to presume to predict an ultimately self-centered outcome, and paid the price for being wrong.

Justice requires punishment for sin, unless covered by His Son's blood. Judas' sin most likely was not, and as such died in his sins and is in hell.

 

[JCitoL]

"We" aren't. "We" are acknowledging that not only is He loving, but He is also just, not fair. Nothing you have quoted prevents Him from being just in punishing sin. No where does God say He is fair, only that He is just.

Judas had a choice. He did not have to act as he did. Had he not, another would have been raised up to betray the Master. But God knew He would act exactly as He did, and therefore did not have to prepare a "contingency plan." God knew Judas would surrender to his own arrogance and greed, and betray Jesus. In many ways, Judas was precisely like today's politicians, Republican or Democrat. Many believe any means is justified by the end. Judas so believed. He thought by betraying Christ to the authorities, Jesus would throw off His bonds and declare the Kingdom of God forthwith. Judas didn't understand the plan. None of the disciples did. But Judas was the only one to presume to predict an ultimately self-centered outcome, and paid the price for being wrong.

Justice requires punishment for sin, unless covered by His Son's blood. Judas' sin most likely was not, and as such died in his sins and is in hell.

we do not (try to) defend whosesoever unrighteousness may be, but if God is not fair, then He would not be also just, and if He be presented as a bad person, many infidel/non-occult people might deny Him

Romans 2:24 "For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."

let alone if the Lord be presented as a character who rejects His own disciples without take care of them to the utterance?!, and what if Lord has saved judas?!, who are we to judge him at this rate - one saved person to whom all sins were forgiven already from 2 millennia on?!, or is it possible Lord God not to forgave judas after He has said:

Matthew 18:21-35 "Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times(i.e. whether each day)? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times(i.e. I do not say you just each day): but, Until seventy times seven(i.e. but, every day, every time). Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."

how is it possible (the) Lord not to forgive one of His most direct disciples after He forgave and saved many people who not only were not His disciples, but even were His enemies

Matthew 5:43-48 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun(i.e. His benediction/grace) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain(i.e. purification) on the just(i.e. on the clerics/believers) and on the unjust(i.e. and on the infidel people). For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans(i.e. the unrighteous people) the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans(i.e. the unrighteous people) so? Be ye therefore perfect(i.e. perfectly loving/good), even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

and what so is some kleptomaniac guilty after he is insane?!, but how much more are guilty those scribes and pharisees who doomed both Jesus and judas?!, why the lost sheep to be forsaken?!, and if it be forsaken, then would this be a deed of Good Shepard?!, we also can perch cosily and abandon the flock judging them from the bunker, but is this really the Will of God after Jesus showed how every unsaved human must be saved?!, and if we do not save as opposed to Jesus and His twelve disciples, then let's at least profess His eternal salvation and abundant life for every human/soul without judge anyone of them leaving all in His Hands, because Jesus and His disciples who have been shown in the books of the New Testament: cast out the evil spirits from the possessed humans, forgave the sins of the sinners, healed the sick, recovered the lame, resurrected the dead, preached the good Word, etc., while what we do?!

Blessings

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

we do not (try to) defend whosesoever unrighteousness may be, but if God is not fair, then He would not be also just, and if He be presented as a bad person, many infidel/non-occult people might deny Him

Read the Scriptures. There is nothing in them about God being "fair." By that, I mean He does not treat everyone equally. He loves all, but justice requires Him to provide justice to those who have rejected Him, just as those who abide in Him receive the just reward of heaven, though that is not our primary aim. Our primary aim is to love and serve the Lord, and we do that by sharing His gospel with others, by caring for the poor, the homeless, the hungry, the sick and the prisoner. We do that for the glory of God. Those who do those things for the glory of themselves have no reward, but have only justice, which for them is hell.

Romans 2:24 "For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."

Out of context. The verses prior to this confirm the justice of God on those who practice theft, adultery, idolatry, false teaching. Look at it in its full context:

Romans 2 NASB
17 But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,
19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,
21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.
​

I am not blaspheming the name of God, as you so boldly accuse me, but I am defending His name because you choose to present only one side of His character.

let alone if the Lord be presented as a character who rejects His own disciples without take care of them to the utterance?!

You have it wrong. Jesus did not reject Judas, Judas rejected Jesus. The moment he chose to betray Him to the Council for 30 pieces of silver -- thereby profiting for his betrayal while doing so to force Jesus to speak His kingdom into existence then and there -- he ceased being a disciple and manifested what he truly was, a rebellious sinner who chose his own path rather than that of Christ.

... and what if Lord has saved judas?!

Then so be it. But the evidence speaks strongly against it. You apparently refuse to see the evidence for what it is.

how is it possible (the) Lord not to forgive one of His most direct disciples after He forgave and saved many people who not only were not His disciples, but even were His enemies

It is obvious you do not understand that it was their faith that saved them, their choice to follow Christ, and to illustrate the power of faith, He healed them. They were not His enemies when He forgave them their sins, because He is just, and does not forgive without repentance. The Matthew passage you quote here is not relevant to your argument. We are to forgive, regardless, because we do not know their heart. He does. He knows everyone's heart, and His justice is based on the condition of the heart. The same can be said for the following Matthew passage. You quote without understanding what they are teaching.

and what so is some kleptomaniac guilty after he is insane?!, but how much more are guilty those scribes and pharisees who doomed both Jesus and judas?!, why the lost sheep to be forsaken?!

They are not, if they repent and believe. Otherwise, they are doomed to hell.

Essentially, you have asked the same question, over and over again, in this post. The truth is simple. God is just. Not "fair" in that He forgives without faith or repentance. Done here.

 

[JCitoL]

Read the Scriptures. There is nothing in them about God being "fair." By that, I mean He does not treat everyone equally. He loves all, but justice requires Him to provide justice to those who have rejected Him, just as those who abide in Him receive the just reward of heaven, though that is not our primary aim.

if some people reject Him, then His work is to heal them removing the whole evil from them and making them (to) be good/righteous

Matthew 9:10-13 "And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

let's at least do not hinder Him to do and complete His work

Our primary aim is to love and serve the Lord, and we do that by sharing His gospel with others, by caring for the poor, the homeless, the hungry, the sick and the prisoner.

and why not the love to be the thing which makes the human to invoke the true God?!

We do that for the glory of God. Those who do those things for the glory of themselves have no reward, but have only justice, which for them is hell.

and why must some unoffending people be run in(-to) hell albeit they somehow do not glorify God?!, or else why the good people to be punished for their good deeds/works?!

Out of context. The verses prior to this confirm the justice of God on those who practice theft, adultery, idolatry, false teaching. Look at it in its full context:

Romans 2 NASB
17 But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,
19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,
21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.
​

I am not blaspheming the name of God, as you so boldly accuse me, but I am defending His name because you choose to present only one side of His character.

we do not accuse you, we just explain that if God is made unrighteous, then this also is a transgression

1 John 1:5-10 "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light(i.e. love/goodness/benignity), and in him is no darkness(i.e. evil(-doing)/misdeed/villainy) at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship(i.e. amiability) one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin(i.e. but if we do iniquity saying that we have no sin), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us(viz. because thus we show Him as unrighteous).",

1 John 5:9-10 "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son."

You have it wrong. Jesus did not reject Judas, Judas rejected Jesus. The moment he chose to betray Him to the Council for 30 pieces of silver -- thereby profiting for his betrayal while doing so to force Jesus to speak His kingdom into existence then and there -- he ceased being a disciple and manifested what he truly was, a rebellious sinner who chose his own path rather than that of Christ.

and the fact that judas sold out Jesus for 30 pieces of silver when having a whole bag with cash shows per se that only some crazy human can do this after/while is called and chosen to be His disciple - his kleptomania was really addle-brained, however if you are shepard and have 12 sheep, then would you abandon someone of them in case it strayed/lost itself?!

Then so be it. But the evidence speaks strongly against it. You apparently refuse to see the evidence for what it is.

we again repeat that we do not (try to) defend whosesoever unrighteousness may be, but if judas was possessed, then we do not dare to judge it untimely - he after all was one of the twelve Jesus' disciples and this choice of God maybe was not promiscuous

It is obvious you do not understand that it was their faith that saved them, their choice to follow Christ, and to illustrate the power of faith, He healed them. They were not His enemies when He forgave them their sins, because He is just, and does not forgive without repentance. The Matthew passage you quote here is not relevant to your argument. We are to forgive, regardless, because we do not know their heart. He does. He knows everyone's heart, and His justice is based on the condition of the heart. The same can be said for the following Matthew passage. You quote without understanding what they are teaching.

and what if turns it out that God somehow was not able to let judas to be healed, e.g. if He was in a deeper state of somnolence/drowse for judas?!, insomuch it may turn out that judas was rather a victim

Matthew 24:20-22 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake(i.e. but because of the prayers of the true Saints) those days shall be shortened."

They are not, if they repent and believe. Otherwise, they are doomed to hell.

Essentially, you have asked the same question, over and over again, in this post. The truth is simple. God is just. Not "fair" in that He forgives without faith or repentance. Done here.

if the true God is not fair albeit in only one thing, then He would hardly be also just, but after He still is on the upmost throne of the universe, then it is sure that He is righteous and saintly

Blessings

 

[Danus]

OK, I know you're all going to think I'm twisted, and maybe your right, but this thread reminded me of the greatest stage performance of Judas ever. This is being dedicated to a character roll. One thing for sure, this guy had faith.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-17817352