Lukewarm believers and faith

[RBDERRICK]

Who on earth is saying that Jesus' shed blood was not sprinkled in the sight of God in heaven?

Not you any more, after coming up with it, when challenged about your oringal atonement made at the cross by shedding of blood alone.

And so far as I know, you're the only one coming up with this whole new Christian mysticism, in order to reject drinking the resurrected Lamb's sprinkled blood by His eternal Spirit.

But then, that first command repentance from all dead works.

And no. Jesus' natural blood being shed on earth, was not sprinkling down in heaven.

But it was sprinkled when Jesus shed his blood.

And so, now you can develope the mystical act, by showing exactly how God got His natural blood into heaven, while He was bleeding out on earth?

And why would God sprinkle Jesus' natural blood all over His bright throne? Did God drink that blood too? Maybe He then spued it out on His lap and seat as a bad idea?

And that's because it was not sprinkled as an OT sacrifice, but rather, as a NT sacrifice.

The Lamb of God is risen to sprinkle His blood today. He's no more a sacrifice on the cross.

Regardless of when the blood was sprinkled--

Right. It's not like it's anything important to unrepentant sinners, that want nothing to do with being sprinkled with His blood, nor drinking in His obedience unto life.

we are purely hypothesizing

Thank you. And you wonder why you're not taken seriously pertaining to Scriptures of truth?

Matth 12:37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned…for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Do you ever stop to listen to yourself?

because we don't know when God officially noted that Jesus shed his blood,

God didn't see when His Son's innocent blood was shed on a cross? He recorded it in Scripture, and we know what day, and almost the exact hour.

You don't listen to yourself.

we can say without hesitation that it was Jesus' sacrifice, and not his resurrection, that covered our sins.

Well, He certainly did bleed out over the smitings and piercings put on His flesh by sinnners.

And yes, that includes all man's sinnings against Him, not just the hands on sight.

However, those still pirecing Him to themselves, do not have His natural blood bleeding out of the sinful wounds. His natural blood already dried up in the earth long ago. (Nor was it ever on God's throne. Yech.)

And that is obviously because it was when he died for our sins that he forgave our sins.

You can believe that all you wish.

He died for all men's sins to become exceeding sinful and repented of.

He rose again for repented sins to be washed away by sprinkling of His Spirit.

No man's sins are forgiven without godly repentance unto salvation.

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." He said this while he was dying on the cross!

True. So did Stephen while being stoned.

Doesn't mean God forgives any unrepented sinning.

Samual wanted God to forgive King Saul for His rebellion, and prayed earnestly for it. But God told the prophet to quit wasting his time.

He was God Himself in the form of men, mediating on behalf of God his Father to bring atonement by his own sacrifice--

The Son was not mediating for anyone on earth, while His body was in the grave, and He was preaching to the spirits in the heart of the earth.

not his resurrection.

You're antipathy to His necessary resurrection for repentance of sins is noted.

The resurrection is added because it is the result for which he died, to provide us with the means of resurrection through his own resurrection.

If we repent to do His will unto the end.

No one dying in any act of unrighteousness is resurrected in Jesus' likeness. Afterall, the unrighteous aren't anything like Jesus on earth.

But God observes when people are sprinkled.

Is this more hypothesis?

And the blood that is sprinkled was shed on the cross.

That's what too much hypothesizing does to the brain. Jesus' natural blood dried up in the dust of Golgotha's hill long ago.

The blood became available to be sprinkled on us the moment it was shed.

You weren't even there. Or, maybe you were hypothetically-speaking. Did you drink it, or just hypothesize about it?

The blood is not sprinkled on Christians until they accept it as such.

Really? Do they tell when the Spirit to do so? Ok, Lord, now sprinkle away!

Or, do you mean accepting it hypothetically?

1 Cor{14:33} For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

So it was not sprinkled on us either when Jesus shed his blood,

Of course not. We weren't there.

In any case, He only bled out on the hands crufiying Him.

And that mystical sprinkling in heaven of yours, surely couldn't have been on anyone on earth, right? I mean, not even hypothetically/

The blood certainly was not sprinkled on us at his resurrection!

Certainly not any of us, that were not yet alive at His resurrection.

And certainly not on anyone today not repenting with His resurrection.

Animal blood was not sprinkled on Christ--

True. I don't read any record of that in Scripture.

he shed his own blood.

No. Sinners shed His blood. Jesus did not commit suicide.

And his blood was shed so that it could be sprinkled on us,

Not at the cross. His natural blood was shed by wicked men, so that they could shut Him up by death.

Didn't work.

so that it could be sprinkled on us, in the spiritual sense.

Right. Now you're getting closer to truth than hypothesis.

However, His blood is sprinkled by the Spirit, upon them that repent. And the only repentance that makes any sense, is from all sins and trespasses.

 

[RandyK]

Not you any more, after coming up with it, when challenged about your oringal atonement made at the cross by shedding of blood alone.

I'm not interested in your endless arguing. I find nothing edifying in it--I only shared as long as I thought others may be helped by it. I don't believe you are.

 

[RBDERRICK]

And you need to add Works to your "Faith Alone,"

I don't add works to my faith alone, because I have no faith alone.

It's not possible to have faith alone with works.

with respect to Justification?

It's not my justification.

Evidentiary justification with man, is man's own alone, not God's.

So you have to work at Justifying yourself?

No, I work gladly with the Lord, to remain justified with Him without spot nor wrinkle.

Through His faith without lust, it's easy. Through man's own faith alone with lust, it's impossible.

Luk 18:27And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

I thought you believed that only Christ could do the work of Justification?

And only through Christ can we do the works justified with Him.

There is no question that I agree with you that we must do good Works along with the fact Christ Justified us.

And continues to justify them that do His works.

But I do not agree with you that we in any way help Christ with Justifying us!

It's pretty hard not to help Christ do His works through us. I mean, we do have to do the works ourselves.

Jesus Christ doesn't repent for us, nor do our works instead of us. We have to get our hands and feet into it.

You need to set aside hypothesis and mystical theory, and start talking down to earth.

2Co 3:12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

Try applying your views to reality, then you'll talk more sense. Get rid of that sparkling 'Faith Alone' in the sky with with all her doctrinal airs, and teach things that can be done.

1Jo 3:18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

So far, the only teaching I've heard from you, is how to live less spotted on earth. A leopard doesn't change his spots, but having less of them. Still the same spots of old.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I'm starting to think you're just a trouble-maker.

Jesus made a lot of trouble for tradition teachers. He kept quoting Scripture to them.

So did Stephen. And Paul, after he dropped all the traditions of men and kept to Scripture of God alone: Sola Scriptura

You should know I wasn't speaking of extra-biblical as in "unbiblical."

Speaking of extra-biblical traditions is bad enough. Speaking traditions that Scripture rejects is worse still.

As I said, "Faith Alone" is very biblical.

True. it's very dead.

Any tradition of any faith alone being alive to God, is anti-bublical tradition.

The biblical terminology is addressed in its then-current environment.

Which applies today. Faith alone is dead and jusifies no man apart from what we are doing.

It's saying the same thing to people presently saying otherwise.

It is not called "Faith Alone" in the Bible.

True. It's called faith that is dead without works, being alone.

Faith alone is dead, being without works.

Neh 8:8So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

 

[RBDERRICK]

People are saved by their deeds precisely because by faith they can be and do good,

Excellent. I agree. I only amend that we are saved by our deeds by reciving the faith of Jesus Christ to do His good works.

And, it's contradictive to be saved by deeds, but not justified by works.

If you think people can please God and enter into Eternity apart from Christ, you have bad theology.

True. But I haven't heard any Christians preaching Judaism, Buddhism, and Islam.

Although the Universalists probably do, with their universal cosmic Christ.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Those aren't "two justifications."

You need to tell the other person that. He keeps demanding the definitions for justification.

There is only one Redemptive Justification,

True. repentance from dead works unto righteous faith toward God.

as opposed to validating the fact we were Justified by doing Works of Righteousness.

Good again. Except that we must maintain good works through faith in Jesus, to remain justified by doing His works of righteousness.

There is no sense in arguing "two justifications" if when speaking of "Faith Only" we are only speaking of Redemptive Justification, followed by validating the fact we were Justified by showing Christ is in us through our Works.

The validating justification taught by some justifiers by faith alone, is doing works to be justified of men, but not of God.

They teach justification in James 2, as only of works to be seen and honored of men, not to be seen and justified by God.

You try to separate Redemptive Justification from Works Validation, but they cannot be separated. One leads to the other.

Not if works validation is only with men, and not with God.

Our Faith is the only "Work" that we do,

I agree. Faith is work. Faith is both substance of hope and evidence by work.

Faith alone without works is dead, and has no hope of pleasing God.

You're starting to talk like Scripture. I like it.

Our "Work of Faith" does not make us partners with Christ in his Work of Redemption.

True. His work of repemption is sprinkling of blood upon them that repent.

Repentance from dead works is not doing works, but only ceasing of our own past works.

Titus{3:3} For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another. {3:4} But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, {3:5} Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[RBDERRICK]

And since the spirit pursues its choices through the body, the body is described as being the home of sin.

No. The body is the natural vessel we dwell in.

The home of sin is lust in the heart of man.

Lust is the option that God has given to men so that they can choose to desire an alternative to God's will. They "lust" for what God has not given them to want. Men *want* things for themselves that is opposed to God's word and will.

I can agree. So long as lust continues in the heart, man walks in darkness and is dead to God.

Once any man sins by lust, then the deeds must be repented of, for Jesus Christ to take away the old lust of heart.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

We can have the record of our evils removed through the sacrifice of Christ,

The sanctification and circumcision of Jesus Christ. His bodily sacrifice was on a tree long ago.

Only by His resurrection from the dead is anyone born again by repentance for His name's sake.

so that we can use Christ's own flawless record as a banner of our vindication whenever we overcome our sinful tendencies and choose to live by this proper Nature.

Ok. So long as overcoming of sinning continues, so does the flawless banner of Jesus Christ with us.

Flawed spots are not on His banner, nor in His body and church on earth.

 

[RBDERRICK]

That is not, however, what I said. I described the difference between defining "sinner" as an embraced lifestyle and defining "sinner" as having a Sin Nature,

There is no difference with God between how much or lessing sinning a sinner does, and being sinners with lust of heart. A sinner to God is anyone with lust of a corrupt heart. A sinner is anyone committing sin by lust.

Not all men now have lust of heart, nor are committing sin with the world.

That is the promised blessing of circumcision of Christ by repentance from dead works.

The old deeds cease, because the old lust is taken away. And so along His faith is kept blameless with a pure heart, the old deeds continue ceased with no lust of heart.

1 Thess{5:22} Abstain from all appearance of evil. {5:23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {5:24} Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Phl 1:6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Jde 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

What kind of "sinners" are you saying Christians are?

The kind they say they are. They confess committing sin without ceasing, it's because they have their lust untaken away by the risen Lamb of God.

Because they don't repent of all their sinful deeds.

But we are talking about the difference between committing sin in a "human" way and choosing to embrace sin as a lifestyle.

No. You are hypothesing again.

All men commit sin in an angel's way: Lusting from the heart against God. Men sinning in man's way is with natural bodies on earth.

My definition of "sin" was not "self-justifying." It is not "self-justifying" to define "sinner" as a universal human nature we are infected with from birth.

It is when sinners accuse God of making them that way.

Or, blame their body for what they do with it.

It is only "self-justifying" if one chooses to capitulate to that nature or embrace it as an acceptable lifestyle.

No, that's self-satisfaction. Self-justifying is justifiying it by some lying doctrine iof self-deciet.

Or, beleiving in being justified while doing such things, by their own faith alone.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Then why are we even discussing this?

It's not a discussion. It's a debate.

My only interest in what you teach, is whether it is Scripture or not. The perfecting of Scriptural teaching comes by agreement and disagreement.

The disicplined exercise of Scripture to correct error, can increase the knowledge of the truth.

For example, correcting your false atonement made by Jesus' death alone, has greatly perfected Scriptural understanding of the atonement made by the risen Lamb of God from above, as opposed to that of shed and sprinkled blood of bulls and goats on earth.

For that alone, our marathon debate is worth the time spent.

No, I've given you the standard beliefs of "Faith Alone,"

You do, if any man is justified by his faith alone in Christ, while doing any unrighteousness work with the flesh.

You can form your own definition for "Faith Alone,"

Yes. I accept Scripture's definition of faith alone being dead, as my own.

but nobody from "Faith Alone" will be able to discuss it with you

Not if anyone is going to try and talk about any faith alone that is alive to God or man.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Foreshadowing is not reproducing the exact same thing.

True. It's producing the heavenly thing foreshadowed by the earthly.

Shedding and sprinkling of the blood of the Lamb of God, is not reproduced on earth alone, as that of bulls and goats.

I've nothing more to add.

Is this double goodbye?

 

[RBDERRICK]

And yet you believe that our justification isn't complete,

Not your's, if your sanctification isn't complete.

God's sanctfication and justification are always complete and completely together at the same time.

Same with His redemption, salvation, circumcision, and Spirit's baptism.

Not sanctification.

Not yours.

If we have to work to maintain our justification, then by definition, it cannot be complete.

Keeping something completely clean does not make the thing incomplete.

A completely clean house is kept completely clean by complete cleaning. The house is complete the whole time, not incomplete.

We must keep our completely cleaned house from the Lord, completely clean unto the end. The Lord never inhabits an unclean heart of lust, that is sinning in the house.

A person cannot do works of righteousness unless they are a believer.

True. And no believer in Jesus Christ is doing any work of unrighteousness.

Paul is saying here that "works done by us in righteousness" do not justify us

Nope. Bad translation for false doctrine.

The context is plainly of doing man's own righteous works without Christ.

All the context of Scripture condemns man doing His own righteousness without the faith of God.

God commends, justifies, and remembers in His book of life, all righteousness done in His name.

Works do not justify and they do not keep us justified.

Not you. Speak for yourself and others like you.

I'm not because no one is,

Even if no one on earth is righteously walking as the Lord, you're still judged guilty of God. The flood proves that.

Paul says you are to be considered accursed.

Ok. Go ahead.

Curses from some people is blessing from God.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

But, let it be noted that you are clearly and unquestionably saying that we are justified by works,

Not you.

I only speak doctrine of Christ, and for myself.

and that despite numerous quotes I've given showing that you do.

One last time. Of course I do.

I teach it all the time.

I don't teach incomplete justification with added works to make it complete.

Unrighteous works obviously have no bearing on the matter.

They certainly do in not being justified with Jesus Christ.

People can trust in being justified by their faith alone in Christ all they wish. But if any man is doing any work of unrighteousness, then that person is not justified by Jesus Christ.

Only an unrighteous Christ justifies any man, while doing an unrighteous deed.

You would have been correct if you said, "Without the proof of the works, there has been no justification."

OK. Never has, and still not.

That is once again misrepresenting what I have said.

You don't preach salvation unto repentance?

And gradual repentance?

You teach the false gospel of justification by works. It's plain to all that I have not misrepresented you.

I do teach the gospel of justification by works. I don't teach any gospel of incomplete justification made complete by works.

Nor do I preach any gospel of incomplete sanctification, made less incomplete by gradual repentance.

What I quoted was evidence of you saying that we are justified by works.

Plenty of it. Want some more? Saints in Christ Jesus are justified by works.

Yet, to begin your post you said: "When you learn to quote someone saying, what you say they have said, then you will learn to prove what they have said."

Learn the difference between teaching justification by works, and teaching incomplete justification made complete by works.

You still used those words.

You are the only one speaking of adding works to justification, and incomplete justification made complete by works.

That was in response to: "Justification is a once and for all act of God." But, you cannot believe it to be true. You stated that "Works do justify. Period.

As does Scripture. Argue with the Lord about it.

" Those are two mutually exclusive, contradictory beliefs.

Tell that to God.

(by not actually looking up the meanings of "justification;" central to this discussion),

There are no meanings of being justified with God. Only one in the Bible.

I have learned other unbiblical meanings of other justifications, enough to understand and accurately correct and reject them.

There is no reason for this thread to continue.

I agree. Take your little ball and go home.

 

[hawkman]

This thread has run it's course for now , it will rest for now .
TOS1.2 Those who identify themselves as Christians will be held accountable to conduct themselves as such. If they are truly governed by the Holy Spirit, they will not continually engage in goading, mocking, insulting, trolling, berating or inciting other members to anger and resentment. They will post in a Spirit of kindness and respect, even if there are doctrinal disagreements, and be quick to reconcile if differences of opinion should get heated. Disciplinary actions will be taken against those whom staff regards to be naming the name of Christ and yet are holding the truth in unrighteousness.