Lukewarm believers and faith

[RBDERRICK]

Yes, it is. If one has to do works to ensure their justification, then their justification is incomplete and relies on their works. That is adding works.

No, that is complete election and justification remaining complete, by adding works to our faith.

Once again, righteous works are evidence of having been justified; they do not justify.

Yes, they do. But only for the righteous. The unrighteous are not justified by their works.

Do not call anyone a sinner and imply they are not a saint.

Are you a sinner?

I don't read any Scriptures for sinners that are saints, nor for saints that are sinners.

Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

What you are teaching is a false gospel that requires works for justification.

No. It requires works to keep wholly sanctified and justified in Christ Jesus.

Col 2:6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Needing no works to be justified by faith, is the false gospel of being justified by faith alone, apart from works, including while doing unrighteousness.

Any Christ justifying the person by faith alone, while doing evil, is not Jesus Christ the righteous.

 

[RandyK]

Neither the Father nor the Son was parent to them crucifying Him, nor is parent to them crufiying Him to themselves today.

The point was, it is at the person's "death" that the will becomes active.

No man is born again before His resurrection.

What? Where do you get this stuff? Peter said we are already "born again!"

Adoption and election are by His resurrection from the dead, not before.

No, it is at the death of Jesus on the cross, when just prior he had said, "It is finished." That is, his ensuing death was the beginning of a New Covenant.

 

[Free]

No, that is complete election and justification remaining complete, by adding works to our faith.

Same difference. If works are needed to continue to ensure our justification is complete, then that is adding works to justification.

Yes, they do. But only for the righteous.

No, they do not. Ample biblical evidence has been provided to you repeatedly, yet you not only do not address it, you continue to argue as though it doesn't exist.

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (ESV)

This is exactly what I'm saying. You're saying the opposite.

The unrighteous are not justified by their works.

Of course not, no one is justified by their works.

No. It requires works to keep wholly sanctified and justified in Christ Jesus.

Yes, you are teaching a false gospel. Works do not justify. Period. Works are done out of obedience and love for Christ and so are evidence that a person is justified. In so doing, they play a part in our sanctification.

Needing no works to be justified by faith, is the false gospel of being justified by faith alone, apart from works,

That is the true gospel, given throughout the NT, and posted to you ad nauseam and which you have ignored just as many times. Why have you yet to actually directly address the passages given to you?

 

[RandyK]

We don't undo what is not done. I reject your false atonement made by Jesus Christ, before His resurrection.

Your choice. Atonement is made by the sacrifice--not by the resurrection.

The only atonement made by God before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, was that of blood of bulls and goats slain and sprinkled by the priests of God.

Yes, that atonement did not require that the animals who were sacrificed be "raised from the dead" before they became a "real atonement!"

You are talking about an atonement made by His death alone.

You stop preaching an atonement made by Jesus' death, before His resurrection, and I'll stop calling it an atonement made by killing the sactifice alone.

No, I'm not going to stop stating that atonement came by Jesus' blood, by Jesus' death. The terminal point of the Old Covenant was the beginning point of the New Covenant. It did not require Jesus' resurrection to apply the blood of Jesus before the throne of God, to make atonement for the people. God saw Jesus' blood immediately, and not only after the resurrection.

Thank you. You preach your own faith alone, not the faith of Jesus Christ.

I only preach the faith of Jesus Christ, and not my own alone.

Jesus' faith was his own. If you don't have your own faith, you can't have faith in anything.

Luke 7.50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Are you going to say that this woman had no faith of her own, that she was saved only because she had "Jesus' faith?" Your view is really weird.

The faith of Jesus Christ is to do His righteousness, which is without spot. The faith of man alone is to do our own righteousness, which is spotty at best.

Proper application of faith in our life requires that we direct our faith to Christ alone to put on his righteousness. We do not have a righteousness of our own apart from this endowment from him to us.

Scriptural faith alone, is being without works.

Having an object of faith, without works, is idolatry.

I've told you that "Faith Alone" expresses a theology, using extra-biblical words to express biblical truth. You can't get that, and end up in heresy.

"Faith Alone" places a premium on directing our Faith to Christ alone for our Justification. That means we can't even produce acceptable righteousness on our own, apart from Christ.

We must trust in Christ's grace alone for our Justification, being that we cannot earn this on our own by Works. Christ's Atonement is available to our Faith by our Faith Alone, and not earned by our Works.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Same difference. If works are needed to continue to ensure our justification is complete, then that is adding works to justification.

Instead of being corrected, you double down on misrpresenting what I teach from the Bilbe. Neither Scripture nor I ever speak of adding works to an incomplete justification. Until you quote otherwise, then you wilfully choose to change what I say, in order to say something.

You accused me of changing what you say, by the diffence of one word, and I was corrected. You teach justification by one's faith alone in Christ, and not by one's own faith alone Christ. I preach adding to our faith the works, that ensure we remain wholly sanctified and justified in Christ Jesus.

Titus 3:8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

We must maintian the good works we are born to, in order to maintain the sanctification and justification we are born with in the righteous and holy Spirit.

I do not preach an incomplete justification at any time. Nor do I preach adding works to jsutificaiton, in order to become more justified than before.

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

1 Thess{5:22} Abstain from all appearance of evil. {5:23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {5:24} Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do it.

1Co 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Only lukewarm repenters of man's religion teach an incomplete washing, sancitificaton, and justification, who preach adding some works to be more sanctified and justified than before. Which is never wholly complete in this life.

Deu 10:16Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons’

Col 2:10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Col 2:6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Incomplete sanctification and justifification, is the unholy circumcision made by hands of men. I't the lukewarm religion of seeking only to sin and do unrighteousness less then than before in this life. Such gradual and incomplete religion made by man's faith alone, never wholly ceases from disobeying the Lord with the heart and body.

2Pe 2:13Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

2Pe 2:14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

Of course not, no one is justified by their works.

Certainly not in the lukewarm religion, where they can't be justified by their own spotty righteousness of doing evil and good.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

They only preach being justified by their faith aone in Christ, so as to never be righteously judged by their continued dead works without Jesus Christ.

Yes, you are teaching a false gospel. Works do not justify. Period.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Nah 1:3The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked:

The Lord is longsuffering for man to wholly repent and be sanctified and justified in Him. But His patience and longsuffering mercy ends in the grave, and there remains only His righteous judgement by our works.

Rom 2:3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Works are done out of obedience and love for Christ and so are evidence that a person is justified. In so doing, they play a part in our sanctification.

Not when doing unrighteous works of the flesh.

1 Cor 6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind…Gal 5:19 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

That is the true gospel, given throughout the NT, and posted to you ad nauseam and which you have ignored just as many times. Why have you yet to actually directly address the passages given to you?

I address the Scriptures and your corrption of them.

You do not so much as acknowledge the Scriptures I give, because you teach the opposite by your faith alone.

Once again, righteous works are evidence of having been justified; they do not justify.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You do not want righteous works to justify you, so that your unrighteous works do not thus condemn you.

If works cannot judge a person, then no man is judged as good by doing good, and no man is judged evil by doing evil.

Such rejection of judgment by our works, is the world's rejection of the righteous God and Judge of all the earth.

What you are teaching is a false gospel that requires works for justification.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

To coninue in Christ's whole and complete sanctificaiton and justificaiton from dead works, we must add to our most holy faith only the virtuous, godly, and charitable good works of Jesus Christ.

No man doing urnighteous deeds at any time, is justified with the true Christ of God. Any Christ that would justify the soul, that is doing inquity, is a sinful Christ justifiying iniquity.

Do not call anyone a sinner and imply they are not a saint. That is in violation of the ToS.

You call yourself a sinner, but others can't agree with you?

You never call yourself a saint, and yet others are supposte you?

Show anywhere in Scripture that sinners and called saints and godly, and I will call you a sinner and saint.

Otherwise, only by your faith alone, do you want to be a sinner called a saint.

 

[RandyK]

I do not preach an incomplete justification at any time. Nor do I preach adding works to jsutificaiton, in order to become more justified than before.

What you do is confuse people, intentionally or not. You misrepresent what "Faith Alone" means as a belief system. Faith Alone does *not* render Works inadmissable in the Christian life, as you regularly claim. Faith Alone denies Works because it is speeaking of Justification, which disallows any Work but Christ's Work of Atonement.

By claiming that Faith Alone denies Works you actually give the impression that your anti-Faith Alone system adds Works to Justification. And that's because Faith Alone is talking about Justification. By attacking it, you attack Justification. And when you attack Faith Alone because you think it should've added Works to it, you add Works to Justification.

But all Christians Works, though not part of our Justification, rely upon Christ's Word. As such, we not only cannot add Works to our Justification, but neither can we add Works that operate independent of Christ.

This is why we're Justified only by Christ because only in recognition of him do we acknowledge that *all of our Works* must originate with his Word. What Works then would you add to Faith Alone--Works apart from Christ?

But if all of our Works must be generated through and with Christ, then we acknowledge that nothing we do on our own can Justify us. We are Justified only by and through Christ. And it is *our Faith* that operates in conjunction with God's Word that enables us to participate not just in his righteousness but also in his Redemption.

You have said that we only operate "his Faith"--whatever that means? But it is *our Faith* that saves because in choosing Christ we acknowledge he alone Justifies us, and he alone provides us with a righteousness that is free of condemnation.

You condemn those who disagree with you, and quote lots of BIble verses. But they do not cover up your belief that we cannot legitimately have Faith of our own, and that you constantly confuse what Faith Alone really teaches.

 

[Free]

Instead of being corrected, you double down on misrpresenting what I teach from the Bilbe. Neither Scripture nor I ever speak of adding works to an incomplete justification. Until you quote otherwise, then you wilfully choose to change what I say, in order to say something.

I already did, the last time you said the same thing, HERE. This is what I posted:

You said that in response to this: "Adding works to justification is a false gospel."

So, you state in the quote above: "I have never taught adding 'works to justification'."

But, you just stated this in post #420, 45 minutes ago: "Justification by faith alone apart from our works, is no different than any other hypocrite religion on earth."

That is such an obvious contradiction, there is no point in even trying to address your statements. It's like you don't even know what you're saying from one post to the next, or there is a serious gap in your understanding and you refuse correction.

And, you have also taught justification by works elsewhere:

"Scripture is all about keeping the law of God, including being justified by works of faith" and "By James 2, I was refuting justification by faith alone, apart from any works we do." HERE

"We are justified by good works sprinkled with His blood." HERE

"Only by doing His works of faith are we justified with Him.

Seeking to be justified by faith alone, apart from doing good, is only in the imagination of man." HERE

How about this topic you started which was dedicated to teaching justification by works: The problem with not being justified by our works

I could go on and on with examples.


And your response was:

"Adding works to our faith to ensure our election and justification with God, is not adding works to our justification.

The saints are justified by works of faith in Jesus Christ."

And that is just another example of "adding works to an incomplete justification." If anything has to be done "to ensure our election and justification with God," then that can only mean that our justification is incomplete and works are necessary to complete it.

I preach adding to our faith the works, that ensure we remain wholly sanctified and justified in Christ Jesus.

Titus 3:8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

We must maintian the good works we are born to, in order to maintain the sanctification and justification we are born with in the righteous and holy Spirit.

No. Justification is a once and for all act of God. There is nothing we can do to "ensure we remain wholly . . . justified." Sanctification is both an act of God and a process that we go through and are involved in with the help of the Holy Spirit. Doing good works out of obedience and love for God are a part of sanctification, never justification.

I do not preach an incomplete justification at any time. Nor do I preach adding works to jsutificaiton, in order to become more justified than before.

But, you do. I've given plenty of examples of you saying so.

I address the Scriptures and your corrption of them.

You actually haven't addressed them, so you couldn't have shown any corruption of them on my part. You seem to think that simply posting other verses somehow negates the plain meaning of the verses I have given, rather than directly addressing them.

You do not so much as acknowledge the Scriptures I give, because you teach the opposite by your faith alone.

Which is mostly because I either don't know what your point is or I don't see how they support your point.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You do not want righteous works to justify you, so that your unrighteous works do not thus condemn you.

If works cannot judge a person, then no man is judged as good by doing good, and no man is judged evil by doing evil.

Such rejection of judgment by our works, is the world's rejection of the righteous God and Judge of all the earth.

I don't know what your point is here or how it addresses my point, which was: "Once again, righteous works are evidence of having been justified; they do not justify."

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

To coninue in Christ's whole and complete sanctificaiton and justificaiton from dead works, we must add to our most holy faith only the virtuous, godly, and charitable good works of Jesus Christ.

No man doing urnighteous deeds at any time, is justified with the true Christ of God. Any Christ that would justify the soul, that is doing inquity, is a sinful Christ justifiying iniquity.

Again, no, not for justification, but sanctification. I have asked you numerous times and you have yet to provide an answer, but what are the biblical meanings of "justification"?

You call yourself a sinner, but others can't agree with you?


You never call yourself a saint, and yet others are supposte you?

Show anywhere in Scripture that sinners and called saints and godly, and I will call you a sinner and saint.

Otherwise, only by your faith alone, do you want to be a sinner called a saint.

Just as with not understanding what people generally mean by justification by faith alone and then jumping to all sorts of false conclusions, here you also don't seem to understand that some things left unsaid doesn't mean they aren't also true. You really need to learn how people generally communicate and stop reading so much into things.

Whether I call myself a saint or not is utterly irrelevant to the fact that all true believers are saints, which would include myself. It goes without saying.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The point was, it is at the person's "death" that the will becomes active.

The point is that no will is active, where all the recipients are made dead to the Testator by murdering Him.

The Testament will is not en force for the wicked hands killing Him. Even the world knows that any testament is made void by murder.

Mat 21:37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

The NT and will of God is made alive with the resurrected God of Israel, and is now only promised to the children, that repent by the faith of Abraham in His resurrection from the dead.

What? Where do you get this stuff? Peter said we are already "born again!"

Of course. It is the promise made by the NT Scriptures of Jesus' reurrected from the dead. Paul and John concur in the same NT Scriptures, that we are now born again sons of God by faith in His resurrection.

Not making difference between the OT and NT scriptures, is certainly not rightly dividing the word of truth, and is such a gross mishandling of God's word, that it most likely is made by wilfull blindness to decieve.

Mat 6:23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

it is at the death of Jesus on the cross, when just prior he had said, "It is finished."

What Jesus finished on earth at His death, was His life in the flesh on earth, and with His death that of the OT.

By NT Scriptures of His resurrection, His NT is brought in only to them, that believe God raised Him from the dead.

No man was atoned for at Jesus' death by killing Him. And, no man was born again before believing in His resurrection.

1Co 15:14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

There is no faith of God, while Jesus Christ be not risen.

That is, his ensuing death was the beginning of a New Covenant.

No man at His death believed Jesus was the promised Messiah and Son come in the flesh. And especially not in His resurrection, before God raised Him up again unto life.

Gal 3:20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

There is no mediator of one. There is only testament and mediation more than one. Before His resurrection, there were none believing in His resurrection to keep covenant and be mediated for.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator...For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

There must also be of necessity the inheritors of covenant alive to have strngth from of force.

There is no testament nor mediation for one person alone. All at the cross were dead to God by wicked hands. Where there are no people to mediate for, there is no mediator nor mediation made.

 

[RandyK]

The point is that no will is active, where all the recipients are made dead to the Testator by murdering Him.

Jesus' sacrifice provided an atonement for those guilty of his death. The will provided, in advance, an instant inheritance for those who in the future will become Christian.

Not making difference between the OT and NT scriptures, is certainly not rightly dividing the word of truth, and is such a gross mishandling of God's word, that it most likely is made by wilfull blindness to decieve.

But that's what you do in trying to define the shedding and sprinkling of blood by OT standards!

 

[RBDERRICK]

Your choice. Atonement is made by the sacrifice--not by the resurrection.

Only sacrifices made to devils, are made by blood shedding alone, and not with sprinkling of the blood.

Lev 17:6And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the LORD. And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring.

And any symbolic sprinkling of blood, is only made to cover heathen sacrifices made by killing alone.

God's atonement is only made by shedding and Scprinkling. And the Lamb of God's sprinkled blood is not symbolic myth alone.

Yes, that atonement did not require that the animals who were sacrificed be "raised from the dead" before they became a "real atonement!"

No. But all sacrifices made by blood to the Lord must be sprinkled, and the Lamb of God's blood must be sprinkled by He Himself, which can only be by His resurrection.

No, I'm not going to stop stating that atonement came by Jesus' blood, by Jesus' death.

No problem. I have no desire to stop you preaching for your own atonement, which is not mine.

But of course, if you want me to stop objecting to your atonement made by death alone, then stop preaching your atonement made before His resurrection.

The terminal point of the Old Covenant was the beginning point of the New Covenant.

Gal 3:20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

1Ti 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
There is no covenant nor mediator made of one person alone. Where there is no one in covenant with another, there is no covenant nor mediator thereof.

All men were counted in ubelief at the cross for the death of the Son. None were counted as believers in His resurrection, nor being mediator for from the grave.

1Co 15:14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
Any faith toward Jesus Christ and His covenant mediation, when He be not risen, is vain.

It did not require Jesus' resurrection to apply the blood of Jesus before the throne of God, to make atonement for the people.

This is where symbolizing things not true, to make to appear true, leads to digging more ditch dirt to cover for the symbolic lie:

The blood of Jesus is not recorded being sprinkled on the altar of God in heaven. Neither God nor His throneroom need any atonement made for sins.

Neither the Father nor the Son who knew no sin, nor any of His heavenly things, need be sprinkled of His own blood for atonement.

God saw Jesus' blood immediately,

and not only after the resurrection.

The arguement is not about who saw His blood shed on a cross. But when His blood is sprinkled, and who sees it.

Both God in heaven, and all the crucifiers slaying Him, as well as the unbelievers standing by, saw His natural blood shed into the earth.

And only God and the Lamb and the Spirit see His blood sprinkled upon the souls of them that repent.

Exo 12:13And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

The blood sacrifices of bulls and goats is seen of God and men. The blood of the resurrected Lamb is seen only by God.

Jesus' faith was his own. If you don't have your own faith, you can't have faith in anything.

James 2 is not about having no faith at all. James 2 only rebukes having one's own faith to oneself, as having any faith worth anything to God and man.

Having no faith to speak of, is better than faith spoken without doing it.

Luke 7.50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”Are you going to say that this woman had no faith of her own, that she was saved only because she had "Jesus' faith?
Your view is really weird.

What is foolish, is naming the name of Christ by one's your own faith alone, that rejects the faith of Jesus Christ.

Proper application of faith in our life requires that we direct our faith to Christ alone to put on his righteousness.

No one's faith is in Jesus Christ, that rejects having His righteous faith.

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

He does not deny His faith, when others reject it.

Anyone having one's own faith alone in the name of Christ, that also rejects having the faith of Jesus Christ, is cursed faith in another cursed Christ.

I've told you that "Faith Alone" expresses a theology, using extra-biblical words to express biblical truth. You can't get that, and end up in heresy.

Heresy uses non-biblical words to preach against Bible words. The only way to ensure no heresy is Bible words for Bible faith and doctrine of God.

Bible says the faithful are justified by faithful works. Non-Bible says the faithful are not justified by any works at all.

"Faith Alone" places a premium on directing our Faith to Christ alone for our Justification.

It's directing people to a delusional justification by their faith alone, while crucifying Jesus to oneself by wicked works.

Tit 1:16They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

We must trust in Christ's grace alone for our Justification,

Grace and faith alone without adding God's works of righteousness, is unrighteous man's own grace and faith alone, with a decietful justification separated from their works.

2Co 4:2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

 

[RandyK]

Only sacrifices made to devils, are made by blood shedding alone, and not with sprinkling of the blood.

You are trying to hard to make a point, which only becomes a non-point. Who on earth is saying that Jesus' shed blood was not sprinkled in the sight of God in heaven?

It was indeed sprinkled! But it was sprinkled when Jesus shed his blood. And that's because it was not sprinkled as an OT sacrifice, but rather, as a NT sacrifice. The sacrifice was Jesus on the cross--not bulls and sheep offered by Aaronic priests.

Regardless of when the blood was sprinkled--we are purely hypothesizing because we don't know when God officially noted that Jesus shed his blood, we can say without hesitation that it was Jesus' sacrifice, and not his resurrection, that covered our sins. And that is obviously because it was when he died for our sins that he forgave our sins. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." He said this while he was dying on the cross!

Gal 3:20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Jesus was a different kind of priest, who did not stand between God and Men. He was God Himself in the form of men, mediating on behalf of God his Father to bring atonement by his own sacrifice--not his resurrection. The resurrection is added because it is the result for which he died, to provide us with the means of resurrection through his own resurrection.

The blood of Jesus is not recorded being sprinkled on the altar of God in heaven. Neither God nor His throneroom need any atonement made for sins.

So why are you using OT rituals to prescribe how we should view NT atonement? What we see in heaven is the Lamb himself sacrificed for our sins. It was his death that atoned for our sins.

Rev 5.6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne... 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

Neither the Father nor the Son who knew no sin, nor any of His heavenly things, need be sprinkled of His own blood for atonement.

But God observes when people are sprinkled. And the blood that is sprinkled was shed on the cross. The blood became available to be sprinkled on us the moment it was shed.

The blood is not sprinkled on Christians until they accept it as such. So it was not sprinkled on us either when Jesus shed his blood or when it was observed as sprinkled for us, which happened simultaneously. The blood certainly was not sprinkled on us at his resurrection!

The blood was sprinkled on various things under the Law because that animal blood was intended to stand in for Christ before he came. But when he came he shed his own blood which is sprinkled on us when we accept his blood on our behalf through faith.

Animal blood was not sprinkled on Christ--he shed his own blood. And his blood was shed so that it could be sprinkled on us, in the spiritual sense. His blood applies to us when we accept him as our Savior through faith.

 

[RBDERRICK]

RBDERRICK said:
Are you justified by your faith alone, including when doing unrighteousness?

You are not using the words as they are used in the "Faith Alone" theology.

And yet any child knows the words used in a plain question.

Like the dishonest Pharisees avoiding exposure of their true agenda aginst heaven, you instead straddle the fence with obfuscation and confusion.

Mat 21:27And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell.

I have met only one person preaching faith alone, that ever answered the honest question honestly. Which is the only honest answer that can be made from the doctrine itself: Yes, all faith aloners believe their faith alone in Christ justifies them, while doing a work of unrighteousness.

All the rest of you faith aloners just lip-slide away into more and more evasional supplements.

We can say here, that the red scarlet beast must choke and wheeze hard to stay deluded by so many diverse doctrinal erros, just to keep propping up their very own great mother idol, called "Faith Alone". And all the while they run around in circles justify her, that dragon mother of harlotries, just drinks and laughs herself silly at all her own little bleievers. In the menatime, she gets the most uproarously fun ride of her life, until the day of her end on earth.

And what will the frantic beast do, when the day of their delusion must end? That beast worn out with deception and pretence and postering for her sake? Just acknowledge they must repent of all their own transgressions for Jesus' sake? No, never. It can't be that simple to be wholly and completely saved, sanctified, and justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Instead, they will do as all the hardened unrepentant do: They will turn with fiery indignation and hatred on their own mother doctrine "Faith Alone". They will want to blame the great lie itself, as the source of all their indignation and wrath from God.

One by one her children of errors will fall apart by the one stone cut from the enternally sure mountain of Scriptural truth: It's sin nature's fault. It's the flesh's fault. It's God's fault for making us this way. It's the world's fault. It's the devil's fault. It's anything and anyone else's fault but one's own, for not just going ahead and repenting of all transgressions for Jesus' sake.

Matth 24:48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That great day of undelusion will come at the Lord's return, when He will make righteous judgment of good and bad works between the believers. And He will cut off the bad tares with the world, and harvest His righteous wheat unto Himself in the air.

Hos 2:12 And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These are my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

 

[RandyK]

Finally you address the question, but of course without answering the question. Like the dishonest Pharisees avoiding exposure of their true agenda aginst heaven, yoy instead straddle the fence with obfuscation.

Mat 21:27And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell.
I have met only one person preaching faith alone, that ever answered the honest question honestly. Which is the only honest answer that can be made from the doctrine itself: Yes, all faith aloners believe their faith alone in Christ justifies them, while doing a work of unrighteousness.

All the rest of you faith aloners just lip-slide away into more and more evasional supplements.

We can say here that the red scarlet beast must choke and wheeze hard from so many diverse doctrinal heads, just to keep propping up their very own great mother idol, called "Faith Alone". And all the while that dragon mother of harlotries, just drinks and laughs herself silly at all her own little bleievers. While she has time still on earth, she gets the most gloriously hard earned ride of her life from their myriad .

And when the end of delusion comes? That beast worn out with deception and pretence and postering, will turn with fiery indignation and hatred on their own mother doctrine "Faith Alone". And yet for all that, they will not simply repent themselves of their own sins and trespasses, and instead try to blame the great lie itself as the source of all their indignation and wrath from God.

They'll now hate the exposed lie, but will still cling to her children of errors: It's sin nature's fault. It's the flesh' fault. It's God's fault for making us this way. It's the world's fault. It's the devil's fault. It's anything and anyone else's fault but one's own, for not just go ahead and repenting of all transgressions for Jesus' sake.

Matth 24:48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That great day of undelusion will come at the Lord's return to make righteous judgment of good and bad works between the believers, and cut off the bad tares with the world, and harvest His righteous wheat unto Himself in the air.

Hos 2:12 And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These are my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

That would've been some great oratory if it had made sense. ;) I think what you mean to say is that you disagree?

And you need to add Works to your "Faith Alone," with respect to Justification? So you have to work at Justifying yourself?

I thought you believed that only Christ could do the work of Justification? There is no question that I agree with you that we must do good Works along with the fact Christ Justified us. But I do not agree with you that we in any way help Christ with Justifying us!

 

[RBDERRICK]

"Faith Alone" actually means to discount any Works we may do to Self-Atone, or to Justify ourselves for Eternal Life.

And so all faith aloners preach the same thing: Faith alone in Christ justifies the soul, independent of works. The soul is justified by faith alone, when doing good or evil.

Faith alone is greater than works. Faith aloners reject the judgment of God by their works, but only by their faith alone.

Liberalized Christianity: What one believes is more important than what one is doing.

 

[Free]

And so all faith aloners preach the same thing: Faith alone in Christ justifies the soul, independent of works.

Yet again, stop misrepresenting what others believe. You clearly do not understand the position you continue to rail against, as has been evident throughout this thread. 25 pages with repeated attempts to correct your understanding and yet you still don't listen to what others are saying and are intent on misrepresenting them. Why?

The soul is justified by faith alone, when doing good or evil.

This doesn't make sense because you falsely equate justification with doing. That has been central to this whole discussion and proves that you teach the false gospel of justification by works.

Faith alone is greater than works. Faith aloners reject the judgment of God by their works, but only by their faith alone.

No, again, stop misrepresenting what others believe. 25 pages . . . and counting.

Liberalized Christianity: What one believes is more important than what one is doing.

Not really. Liberal Christianity would teach that what one does is more important than what one believes. That's why they're so social justice oriented, but it doesn't really matter who or what you believe God to be. But, that has nothing to do with justification by grace alone through faith alone.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You are using a term that is the product of Christian discussions in history, using their own terms in conjunction with biblical truths. "Faith Alone" is not a theology spelled out in Scriptures, though it is very much in the Bible in principle.

So this has to be explained outside of the Bible to properly present what "Faith Alone" means to those whose theology it is.

Well now. I don't know if every faith aloner agrees it's just another outer-Bible tradition like Mariology, but it does explain why you've been mostly quoting your own views about it.

And like all extra-biblical tradtions of men, as you say, they can only be explained in their own terms, because it's not found in the Bible words.

There are certain traditions not specifically written in Scripture, that are called private interpretations of Scripture. And they can be personally believed no harm-no foul, so long as they're not put forth as confirmed Scriptural truth.

However, this excludes any traditions made up by man, that Scripture readily rejects against the faith and doctrine of Christ Jesus. And so, we can now include your 'Faith Alone' in the category of other infamous traditions like Mariology, and a created christ angel.

In each of these cases, the traditional views espoused are not in conjunction with any Scriptures, but are only parasitical pervesions attached to Scripture. And only one single Scripture is needed to cast them each away.

To wit: Mariology is rejected out of hand by the true record of Jesus being her firstborn son, not her only born son and child. Any created Christ is cast down by The Word was God. And of course, faith alone is dead to God, being without works.

Job 5:13He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.

2Co 4:2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

"Faith Alone" can only be explained in terms of how those who hold to that theology use those words!

Exactly. That's what it means to be a non-bible tradition, that cannot be confirmed in Scripture as true of God: Sola Scriptura. And in the "Faith Alone" case like that of Mary the Lone Virgin, and of a created Christ, they are cut off out of hand from the doctrine of Jesus Christ in the Bible.

Another lying tradition spelled out apart from the Bible in their own theological terms, and contrary to Scripture, is Docetism. That is also quickly dispelled by Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

You are trying to fit the exact *words* "Faith Alone" into the Bible to disprove the theology,

Well. That's what it means to take the exact words of someone's personal tradition, and show where the Bible condemns it as false.

It's like trying to accuse someone of 'maliciously' taking the exact words "I am a fool", and fitting it exactly into the Scripture, that says only a fool says "I am a fool". It's not the Bible reader's fault, but any offence must be taken up with the Author of the Bible.

 

[RBDERRICK]

RBDERRICK said:
And so all faith aloners preach the same thing: Faith alone in Christ justifies the soul, independent of works.

Yet again, stop misrepresenting what others believe.

Unlike you misreprenting me, I will ask a simple honest question to this charge too. As in the past, if you answer plain enough, then I'll change it for your sake.

When is your justification by faith alone in Christ, dependent upon works?

Otherwise, the justification of your soul by faith alone in Christ, is independent of works.

This doesn't make sense because you falsely equate justification with doing.

So, you are saying justification is not equated with doing. Justification is not with doing any works at all, much less dependent upon doing them?

Justification is independent of works, and not even equated with doing works.

 

[Free]

Unlike you misreprenting me,

I haven’t misrepresented you. I provided relevant quotes that show you teach justification by works, twice.

I will ask a simple honest question to this charge too. As in the past, if you answer plain enough, then I'll change it for your sake.

When is your justification by faith alone in Christ, dependent upon works?

This question doesn’t even make sense.

Otherwise, the justification of your soul by faith alone in Christ, is independent of works.



So, you are saying justification is not equated with doing. Justification is not with doing any works at all, much less dependent upon doing them?

Justification is independent of works, and not even equated with doing works.

I have clearly and consistently stated that justification (being declared righteous) is by grace alone through faith alone, completely apart from works, which are only evidence of a person having already been justified.

What is it that you don’t understand about that?

 

[RBDERRICK]

That has been central to this whole discussion and proves that you teach the false gospel of justification by works.

Certainly to you, but entirely true to me.

James{2:22}Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I just quote Scripture to teach Scripture, as well as to reject anti-scripture, such as a man is not justified by works.

Now, it is certainly true that many bad men are not justified by works, being done without Christ. However, it is not at all true that no man is unjustified by works, being done with Christ.

That goes for anyone naming Christ alongside bad doing. That's where having our faith alone in Christ, is not independent of works, so as to exempt us from being righteously judged by our own sinful works, that pierce the Lord.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Not really. Liberal Christianity would teach that what one does is more important than what one believes.

Never heard a liberal protest against their own beliefs, by pointing to their works. I mean, that's honestly calling oneself a liar and hypocrite.

Liberal nonjudgmentalism is summed up in one word, "I know I still do bad things, but I'm still basically good on the inside."

Personal inner belief is more important than personal outer works.

That's why they're so social justice oriented, but it doesn't really matter who or what you believe God to be.

So, you're speaking of universalism. No matter what God is being believed in, whether Christ, Allah, Jehovah, or Buddha, so long as the works are universally good.

I can see that. It can be called the religion of common works with faith relative to any God or gods.

Even faithful Satanists can be part of that universe of works, while having their faith in the god of this world to do no harm.

But, that has nothing to do with justification by grace alone through faith alone.

I understand. You're onwly speaking of faith alone in Christ, with common works of that faith.

However the relativism of faith problem is not resolved, since there are many Christs, but only one true Christ Jesus.

Therefore, while the works being done have a certain commonality among them naming Christ, the beliefe we have is not always in the same Christ.

Such as, the Christ that you believe in alone, is certainly not the Christ that I only believe and trust in. My Christ does not justify my soul by my faith in Him, if I am doing any unrighteous deeds common with the world.

Don't you say that the Christ you believe and trust in, does justify your soul when doing a dead deed of the world, rather than of the Christ you name? At such times of bad doing, does that same Christ still justify your soul by your faith in Him alone?

Is that not the definition of justification independent of what we are doing, with or without the Christ we believe in?