Lust

[Levi]

There is no changing the facts here. They are already set in writing:

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

If you figure out a way to extract the devil from the equations of sin, let me know. Of course you'll have to eliminate 1 John 3:8 to do so and that ain't happening.
There mere thought remains a sin, period. Jesus showed us this fact clearly as well. You may certainly deny it happens in your mind.

This furthers your case by exactly 0 points!

All men have sinned yes!

He who sins is of the devil!

What has that to do with loving your wife and desiring her in the Holy covenant of marriage?

Your treatment of all desire as being equally sinful is disdainful and profane.

According to your doctrine I could go out and have sex with prostitutes and other men's wives and it would be of no difference to having sex with my wife.

This is in effect what you have been preaching, that all desire is equal and all is sinful.


And once again WHEN have I stated that I am not tempted nor that I have never held adulterous thoughts in my mind?

I subjugate my thoughts to Christ as I am commanded to, Jesus spoke to the woman who was caught in adultery: "go sin no more" Do you understand what that means?

 

[smaller]

This furthers your case by exactly 0 points!

All men have sinned yes!

He who sins is of the devil!

My points in making those factual observations are these:

A. Man does not sway or change what the tempter does...and that starts via the insertion of various forms of lawbreaking into mind which is and remains A SIN of the tempter that transpires 'in man' but is not 'of man.'

B. No man stops the tempter from performing that sin in them.

C. No man changes what the tempter does.

What has that to do with loving your wife and desiring her in the Holy covenant of marriage?

Your attempt and that of another poster was to make sexual action holy. I find no such justifications.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

There are spiritual matters and there are fleshly matters. I relegate sex act to the latter. Spiritually speaking there is no male or female in Christ. And I would add that 'lust' is an ingredient of the mind regardless as it relates to sex actions.

Your treatment of all desire as being equally sinful is disdainful and profane.

Go find me two instances of sexual activity deemed 'holy' by the scriptures and you'll have your point.

According to your doctrine I could go out and have sex with prostitutes and other men's wives and it would be of no difference to having sex with my wife.

I'll relegate the subject matter to lustful thoughts at this point as that form of temptation SIN inserted by the tempter is vastly more common. What any man does with that from there only determines his further level of slaveship to sin....by transferring it from thought to word to deed.

What you do with your spouse is none of my business.

This is in effect what you have been preaching, that all desire is equal and all is sinful.

I'll maintain that lust is an ingredient of all sexual activity, yes.

And once again WHEN have I stated that I am not tempted nor that I have never held adulterous thoughts in my mind?

And your still have not linked that LUST to the TEMPTER!

I subjugate my thoughts to Christ as I am commanded to, Jesus spoke to the woman who was caught in adultery: "go sin no more" Do you understand what that means?

What you do is one thing. What the tempter does is another. That is my point. When the tempter inserts SIN THOUGHTS of lust it is A SIN, period.

Jesus amplified or magnified THE LAW of ADULTERY exactly to make this fact known that our mutual adversary is ACTIVE in our MINDS and it is there that the battle begins.
s

 

[Asyncritus]

What you do is one thing. What the tempter does is another. That is my point. When the tempter inserts SIN THOUGHTS of lust it is A SIN, period.

So who is it that sins?

The individual, or the tempter?

 

[smaller]

So who is it that sins?

The individual, or the tempter?

When Satan steals Word from a persons heart or blinds their mind to the Good News of the Gospel who might one logically look at?

The point remains there is more than just man involved.

We are all born spiritually blind and Satan steals Word from all of us. I have no use blaming man for that activity and look to the real enemy rather than condemn the captives.

I believe Jesus did and does the same.

s

 

[Asyncritus]

When Satan steals Word from a persons heart or blinds their mind to the Good News of the Gospel who might one logically look at?

The point remains there is more than just man involved.

We are all born spiritually blind and Satan steals Word from all of us. I have no use blaming man for that activity and look to the real enemy rather than condemn the captives.

I believe Jesus did and does the same.

s

You haven't answered the question, again!

You said, When the tempter inserts SIN THOUGHTS of lust it is A SIN, period.

Who sins when the tempter inserts sin thoughts???

If the tempter is doing the evil deed by putting evil thoughts in our minds, then why is God going to blame us?

 

[smaller]

You haven't answered the question, again!

You said, When the tempter inserts SIN THOUGHTS of lust it is A SIN, period.

Who sinned when the tempter inserts sin thoughts???

If the tempter is doing the evil deed by putting evil thoughts in our minds, then why is God going to balme us?

The fact that there are two separate entities involved and that you also are subject to that type of sin intrusion it may be wise to remember this fact:

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

If a person cannot hear or heed Paul's statement above and DO AS JESUS DID...they are factually under the influences of SATAN in their MINDS.

enjoy!

s

 

[Asyncritus]

Still no answer to the question.

When the tempter inserts sinful thoughts into the human mind, who sins?

The human, or the tempter?

 

[smaller]

Still no answer to the question.

When the tempter inserts sinful thoughts into the human mind, who sins?

The human, or the tempter?

When Satan spoke through Peter's lips who spoke? Satan or Peter?

 

[Asyncritus]

When Satan spoke through Peter's lips who spoke? Satan or Peter?

I'm not going to be deflected, smaller.

You've landed yourself in a right mess, which my question highlights very clearly, and I think you know it.

So here's your statement again:

What you do is one thing. What the tempter does is another. That is my point. When the tempter inserts SIN THOUGHTS of lust it is A SIN, period.

Who sins then? The person, or the 'tempter'?

 

[Levi]

Still no answer to the question.

When the tempter inserts sinful thoughts into the human mind, who sins?

The human, or the tempter?

Don't be to hard on him he is abjugating responsibility. In a sense he is right, to the non believer who is unsaved all their actions and nature can be accredited to Satan who is the master of the fallen nature


SMALLER:

As Jesus stated to the Pharisees: "Your father is Satan, he is the father of lies"

It is noteworthy that He actually called the 'lies' and your synopsis of 2 Corinthians 5:19 does not apply here, but to those who are saved or who God will not impute their sins against them.
Because smaller their Father is in fact God, not Satan.

"The son does only what he sees the Father doing"

As you and I both know, a whole new law springs up in one who has the mind of Christ and with this law comes a new knowledge of the truth and infinite power to do the will of God.

Romans 8:

"1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. "

and again:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

and again:

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

and again:

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I could go on and on and on about this

There is POWER in the Blood

Power to live a Holy and righteous life that was before not known or able.

Power to raise the dead, to feed the hungry, to cloth the poor, to lay your hands upon the sick and cast out demons.

Why settle for anything less and allow the deciever to have you believe that he still has any say over your mind?

As a Christian he only has as much say as you give him:

"Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."

You are commanded to put to death the deeds of the 'old man'

That's what he is when you are born again, the old man and you can kill him and his desires!

 

[Eventide]

I AM thy exceeding and great reward

It's amazing that man's most dreadful problem is wanting things.. perhaps a desire to control the wonderous gifts of God's creation as if they're our own and not His.. and the thing that amazes me is that we truly have everything that we could ever have asked for or needed.. because God is the giver of all good things.

Those in Christ should be free from this problem because in Christ there is an inheritance beyond measure.. you could be the most poverty stricken individual on earth right now.. although you're a gazillionaire (if that's even worthy of the comparison) in Christ and in the Kingdom of God.

I AM thy exceeding and great reward !

That's beyond measure !

And many shall literally have charge over the kingdoms of this world.. when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.

Wait for it.. it's coming..

 

[smaller]

I'm not going to be deflected, smaller.

Oh? The glaringly open and other blantantly obvious party to the transaction of lust should be bypassed, ignorted, covered, not there, not the cause whatsoever, not even implicated, even forgiven?

No doubt from me where you are coming from. It's a common malady.

You've landed yourself in a right mess, which my question highlights very clearly, and I think you know it.

Obviously you went into The Word in directions that don't fit your intentions.

So here's your statement again:

Who sins then? The person, or the 'tempter'?

I've never said that the tempter doesn't work in the person i.e. ALL.

But I don't mix the parties. Sorry.

s

 

[Eventide]

A brother once said..

"It's one thing to have a fowl land on your head.. it's another matter entirely to allow it to build a nest there.."

 

[Levi]

My points in making those factual observations are these:

A. Man does not sway or change what the tempter does...and that starts via the insertion of various forms of lawbreaking into mind which is and remains A SIN of the tempter that transpires 'in man' but is not 'of man.'

B. No man stops the tempter from performing that sin in them.

C. No man changes what the tempter does.
Your attempt and that of another poster was to make sexual action holy. I find no such justifications.

Your point c contradicts your point a which defines 'sin' 'as various forms of law breaking' if sin is to be taken by your definition then please explain what law people break when they have sex in a marriage covenant?
???

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

There are spiritual matters and there are fleshly matters. I relegate sex act to the latter. Spiritually speaking there is no male or female in Christ. And I would add that 'lust' is an ingredient of the mind regardless as it relates to sex actions.

'Lust' does not just relate to sex actions, it can be borne of a number of different desires.

Nothing you have written here furthers your case. Neither male nor female nor will men and women in Heaven as they will be like the angels 'eternal' there will be no more need for procreation.

Does not further your case in any way shape or form.

Go find me two instances of sexual activity deemed 'holy' by the scriptures and you'll have your point.

Don't try to side sweep the issue raised here.

Show us some scripture that says sex within marriage is a sin! I can find you many scriptures, many indeed that show that marriage is an institution of God therefore it is HOLY by it's very tenants.

I'll relegate the subject matter to lustful thoughts at this point as that form of temptation SIN inserted by the tempter is vastly more common. What any man does with that from there only determines his further level of slaveship to sin....by transferring it from thought to word to deed.

What you do with your spouse is none of my business.

I'll maintain that lust is an ingredient of all sexual activity, yes.

And your still have not linked that LUST to the TEMPTER!

What you do is one thing. What the tempter does is another. That is my point. When the tempter inserts SIN THOUGHTS of lust it is A SIN, period.

I am well aware of the tempter and his insensate pestering. But I think you may have a bit of dificulty understanding that the fallen man or 'flesh' is in fact part of his body.

Jesus amplified or magnified THE LAW of ADULTERY exactly to make this fact known that our mutual adversary is ACTIVE in our MINDS and it is there that the battle begins.
s

Jesus repealed this law so that none may consider themselves righteous and put away a wife so they can get another!

He did this so that we can understand how SERIOUSLY GOD TAKES MARRIAGE

Let us not forget how the conversation started :

3The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.



Men where putting away there wives to trade in for a new model. He was refining the law of divorce to include only one acceptable reason for application.



It was exactly as it is today! hard hearts, divorce new model.


Even looking at a woman like that today is a sin, forget about writing out a letter to absolve yourself of culpability.


Marriage is serious business, divorce is not righteous and legal except under one tenant.

 

[smaller]

Your point c contradicts your point a which defines 'sin' 'as various forms of law breaking' if sin is to be taken by your definition then please explain what law people break when they have sex in a marriage covenant?
???

Cited prior...insert whatever formula's you want. There is and remains no doubt that all sin starts in mind and that all sin is and remains of the devil. There is no extracting ones self away from this fact while in this present life.

You are welcome to consider yourself holy and perfect at all times. I simply cannot do that knowing the scriptures and 'what else' transpires therein in ALL.

So boil it down to your intentions above and seek to make yourself and every action perfect.

It just ain't happening in light of the facts.

[/B]'Lust' does not just relate to sex actions, it can be borne of a number of different desires.

Nothing you have written here furthers your case. Neither male nor female nor will men and women in Heaven as they will be like the angels 'eternal' there will be no more need for procreation.

Who said anything about in HEAVEN? The scripture said IN CHRIST...and that would be HERE and NOW. There is no distinction between male and female 'in Christ.' If you think you found a holy sex act in there somewhere where there is no male or female, well...what can I say?

Does not further your case in any way shape or form.

Further my case? I am observing fact of scripture. Scripture has it's own case to make.

Don't try to side sweep the issue raised here.

I don't expect any person to be honest about this subject because of the fact of Satan's implication in LUST of any form. ALL will seek to exonerate themselves from the equations of sin and they do so because of the fact of Satan's involvement in their sins, starting in their minds.

Show us some scripture that says sex within marriage is a sin! I can find you many scriptures, many indeed that show that marriage is an institution of God therefore it is HOLY by it's very tenants.

Do what you want with physical sex. It remains a matter of the flesh.

I am well aware of the tempter and his insensate pestering. But I think you may have a bit of dificulty understanding that the fallen man or 'flesh' is in fact part of his body.

Well bravo! That was the entire point of the exercise. To get believers to understand that another entity is operational within their minds, that it IS a SIN and that it IS of the TEMPTER.

Jesus repealed this law so that none may consider themselves righteous and put away a wife so they can get another!

Uh, no, Jesus said that to amplify the fact that the tempter operates in the mind and that the external event of adultery is the LAST STAGE of SIN. But the thought itself however fleeting or dealt with from that point remains 'adultery in heart, period.'

You are free to exonerate or cover up that fact however you will. It will not change Jesus' statement about it.

He did this so that we can understand how SERIOUSLY GOD TAKES MARRIAGE

Then you best not have one single fleeting adulterous thought eh? lol with that. I'm sure the tempter will be impressed and will not intrude upon your mind. lol with that too.

Let us not forget how the conversation started :

3The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Men where putting away there wives to trade in for a new model. He was refining the law of divorce to include only one acceptable reason for application.

You are again welcome to view the event from the outside of the cup. That won't change Jesus' statement that the thought of adultery is a sin in heart.

Cutting the balance of your external observations as irrelevant to the point of lust starting in mind/heart with a single thought, inserted therein by an entity that is not YOU (or your wife) as Gods child.

enjoy!

s

 

[felix]

Still no answer to the question.

When the tempter inserts sinful thoughts into the human mind, who sins?

The human, or the tempter?

(Jas 1:12-14) Blessed [is] the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

(1Cor 2:11a) For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?

Tempter cannot not insert any thoughts into human mind. Temptation is a result of our own desires and passions. Also, the tempter does not even know if a man is really heeding to his temptation.

We are responsible for our actions and we must give account for our actions.

The devil however can have control over our body (only with permission from God - e.g, Job) who can tempt us through our flesh by making our flesh (our body) vulnerable for temptation (like increasing the testosterone hormone etc).

It is a known scientific study that men are tempted every 7 days esp. in lust which has nothing to do with the devil. (Ref: A research on the relationship b... [J Zhejiang Univ Sci. 2003 Mar-Apr] - PubMed - NCBI). I read another research that says, men's testosterone levels shoot 8% (Ref: Male lust is blind, research suggests - Telegraph) if they are simply alone with a women in a room, even without of any contact or how attractive she is, making men ready to be sex predators - this is true for 'any men' and only those who have self control does not commit anything shameful. This is where temptation comes - assume your testosterone shoots and she is attractive and co-operative, and at that moment, nothing comes into your mind because, ..... I believe every men in this forum knows what happens when testosterone shoots up .... and it's a hard thing to fight against with flesh because it's weak - That's the point only God can save us through His Spirit.

Having said that, God knows our weakness and He helps us. I don't think it's right for us to blame the devil for everything when we are responsible for most of the things. After all, the devil is also a created being from God just like us. Just because the devil is our enemy does not make him responsible for our actions which are according to our desires.

 

[Levi]

Uh, no, Jesus said that to amplify the fact that the tempter operates in the mind and that the external event of adultery is the LAST STAGE of SIN. But the thought itself however fleeting or dealt with from that point remains 'adultery in heart, period.'

s

Your just making that up! you have taken one verse out of a whole body of text and zeroed in on it.

You have taken it out of the context in which Jesus was speaking, both in what He said and the question that He was asked.

The issue smaller was 'marriage and divorce' 'heart hearts and law' 'faithfulness and adultery'

Find some verses that Jesus spoke to back up your position here. One single verse on its own with a whole lot of opinion is not acceptable.

 

[smaller]

Your just making that up! you have taken one verse out of a whole body of text and zeroed in on it.

Oh?

Isaiah 42:21
The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

You have taken it out of the context in which Jesus was speaking, both in what He said and the question that He was asked.

Seems pretty clear to me...lust in heart = ADULTERY in heart.

Simple!

The issue smaller was 'marriage and divorce' 'heart hearts and law' 'faithfulness and adultery'

Uh, no, the topic is LUST. You tried to translate that to making a sex act a holy action in marriage. I'm not saying the marriage bed isn't sanctified. I am saying that 'more than likely' lust is a pretty big portion of physical sex in any case. Whether anyone admits it or not is another question. There is no shortage of religious people who deny their lustful thoughts. In fact that is where the majority of them reside....in the church. I consider that action basic dishonesty.

But seeing how you have in a round about fashion admitted to the intrusion of temptation thoughts by the tempter I really don't know why you are trying to make excuses for the tempter. Is there some reason for that?

Find some verses that Jesus spoke to back up your position here. One single verse on its own with a whole lot of opinion is not acceptable.

I believe the entirety of the LAW stands FIRM and SECURE and fully applicable to EVERY believer and also against Satan and devils. So there ya go!

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Levi]

Oh?

Isaiah 42:21
The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.



Seems pretty clear to me...lust in heart = ADULTERY in heart.

Simple!

Pulling generic verses out of scripture singly and attempting to use them to verify your doctrinal constructs does nothing for your wishy washy upsy turvy swings and roundabouts.

This verse does nothing to further your case.

Uh, no, the topic is LUST. You tried to translate that to making a sex act a holy action in marriage. " I'm not saying the marriage bed isn't sanctified ". I am saying that 'more than likely' lust is a pretty big portion of physical sex in any case. Whether anyone admits it or not is another question. There is no shortage of religious people who deny their lustful thoughts. In fact that is where the majority of them reside....in the church. I consider that action basic dishonesty.

Another stagering demonsration of your oxymoronic statements and attitudes (it's getting to the point where you are making one per post!) :-(

Look if you are going to recant then it's better for all involved if you just say so, there is no shame in conceeding that we have made an error, The Lord gives us margin for error as long as we confess it, we are free to move on in light of the truth.

No body here has ever said that they dont struggle with lust the issue is 'accountability' 'culpability' and what constitutes the 'sin' mentioned by Jesus in regards to marriage, divorce,hard heartedness and adultery.

And even 'why' Jesus made this ruling so tight, and wether or not we as husbands and wives can have the powert to honor our partners, God and the rest of the body within the sanctity of marriage.

But seeing how you have in a round about fashion admitted to the intrusion of temptation thoughts by the tempter I really don't know why you are trying to make excuses for the tempter. Is there some reason for that?

Its not round fashion , it's calling a spade a spade and not seeking to absolve ones self of responsibilty just because the natural man is fallen and Satan is the ruler of this world.

God requires that man accepts HIS OWN sinfullness and fallen nature in order to confess it and lay it at the foot of the cross.

I believe the entirety of the LAW stands FIRM and SECURE and fully applicable to EVERY believer and also against Satan and devils. So there ya go!

enjoy!

smaller

So did the Pharisees and Satan uses it daily to condemn and bring believers down, this is a fact.

Satan knows what he is doing the Pharasees erred in their interpretation of it under the guidence of Satan, Jesus confirmed that by calling them the 'son's of Satan' when they where debating law (quite interesting that fornication and birth out of wedlock came up in that conversation)

If we want to be better than they where, we must practice the "later without leaving the former undone":

Mercy, Justice and forgiveness. The weightier demands of the law

 

[Lehigh3]

2Cor.5:21, NIV
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

This is why Paul says that "flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God"

So we are to live & walk according to the Spirit & the law of the Spirit, & not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Nothing else matters but the new creation which we are. Alive to Christ, dead to sin.
Rom.6:14,
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.