turnorburn
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Continued...
Inq. "This cannot be compared to your case."
Jac. "My lord, it appears to me to be the same thing; for you .people say that if no help comes from God within the time appointed us by you, we must be delivered to death, and according to what you say, we are damned to all the devils."
Inq. "Jacques, there is no doubt about it."
Jac. "But how do you expect, my lord, to escape God's judgment, since you thus send us away to damnation? why do you not leave us in the hand of God until the end? for as long as we live here, hope may always be entertained of reformation, seeing you think that we are damned; but after death there is no longer any hope."
Inq. "I do not drive you to damnation; for I am not the one that judges you; nor ,will I be guilty, of your death."
Jac. "My lord, when Susanna was unjustly condemned to death, who bore the punishment, the judges, or the witnesses?"
Inq. "They that were guilty."
Jac. "My lord, the judges were rebuked by Daniel; but the witnesses were rebuked and punished."
Inq. "Do you think that I am witness in your case? I have come here simply to instruct you."
Jac. "My lord, yet I regard you as the principal witness; for upon your testimony will the judges sentence me to death, or release me, since for this purpose you have been sent here, and appointed by the king."
Inq."I do not wish them to condemn you upon my testimony; nor do I want to judge."
Jac. "My lord, when the judges will ask you in regard to me, what will you answer? will you not say that I am a heretic, and have deserved death?"
Inq. "No."
Jac. "My lord, I pray you, what will you say?"
Inq. "That you are deceived, and seduced from the right way."
Jac. "To be seduced, to err, or to be a heretic, my lord, appears to me to be all the same thing."
Inq. "Well, my son, think not that I have come here to condemn you to death; for you will be sentenced only upon the confession which you made before the commissary; for, as regards myself, I do not wish them to sentence you upon my word; nor would I have anything to do with it."
Jac. "My lord, I have not followed my business so long, and sat in the council for seven or eight years, so that I should not know what this amounts to; but the reason why I tell you this, is to warn you not to stain your hands with my blood; for I well know for what purpose you have been sent here." He now arose, and went away. The words just related we frequently had together afterwards.
On Monday, the 7th of February, 1558, I was again summoned before the same inquisitor. When I appeared before him, he saluted me, and asked, "How are you; have you the fever yet?"
Jac. "I am well, the Lord be praised for it; the fever left me three weeks ago, or thereabouts."
Inq. "How are you at ease in your conscience?"
Jac. "Very well, the Lord be praised for it."
He then made a long speech, too long to be briefly related, the sum and substance of which was, that he entreated me very much, that I should return to the holy Catholic church, and believe as becomes a good Christian, without investigating such high things, and wanting to be so wise. Thereupon I replied, "I investigate nothing but what I am permitted to believe; and I am well content, simply to believe that which a good Christian is bound to believe."
Inq."You indeed say that you want to believe as a good Christian, and yet you have a heretical faith."
Jac. "I have no such faith; but my faith is founded only upon the pure Word of God; and if you were content with the Word of God, you would also be satisfied with my faith."
Inq. "True, you quote the Word of God; but in your heart you understand differently, "
Jac. "As we believe, so speak we; and since we adduce to you the Scriptures, which are the Word of God, for a testimony of our faith, why are you not satisfied with it? for it belongs to God alone, and not to men to search the heart."
Inq. "What. then do you believe concerning Jesus Christ; whence did He take His flesh?"
Jac. "Do the Scriptures teach you that you must ask me this?"
Inq. "Because Menno says that He brought His flesh from heaven."
Jac. "I have not heard him say this."
Inq. "Yet he believes it."
Jac. "Menno's belief is that the Word was made flesh, acording to the testimony of John 1:14, or as the text in your Testament reads: became flesh."
Inq. "What do you believe concerning it?"
Jac. "I bethat Christ is the Son of the living God."
Inq. "Whence did He take His flesh?"
Jac. "I do not know, except that He is born of the Father."
Inq. "Do you not believe that He took His flesh in the womb of the virgin Mary?"
Jac. "My lord, if you can prove to me that Jesus and His apostles compelled any one to confess this, I will also confess it to you; for when Peter confessed Christ, that He was the Son of the living God, Christ did not ask him of whom He was made, but said that upon this rock He should build His church. Matt. 16:18. Again, when Candace's eunuch said to Philip, that he .believed that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and desired to be baptized upon this faith, Philip was satisfied, without inquiring as to whence He had taken His flesh." Acts 8:36.
Inq. "It was not necessary at that time to make such inquiry, since no difficulty existed yet concerning the matter."
Jac. "What need is there now?"
Inq. "Because there are so many heretics."
Jac. "There were enough heretics also in the days of the apostles; but the reason is this, that Satan always causes some vain controversy, to corrupt men's understanding, and to draw them into error."
Inq. "Then you will not confess that He took His flesh and blood in the virgin?"
Jac. "I will not investigate that which is above my understanding, ndmely, whereof the Son of God was made; for this was a miraculous work. However, that you may not think me a heretic, I confess Him to be the Son of God in every manner, in power and might, in spirit, in flesh and blood, begotten of the own substance of one only Father, namely, the eternal God, as the Scriptures testify to us; who was with the Father from eternity; and when the time of the promise was fulfilled, the eternal Word became flesh, and was conceived in a virgin, of the Holy Ghost, and born of said virgin Mary." Inq: "He assumed His flesh from, and was made of, our flesh; will you say nothing with regard to this?"
Jac. "I am satisfied with believing in regard to it acording to the Scriptures, without further investigation."
Inq. "Do not the Scriptures say that He took upon Him our flesh?"
Jac. "I have never read it, and I do not wish to dispute further; besides, you said that you would not dispute about it; why then do you ask me so much concerning it?"
Inq. "In order to see whether your faith is not like the faith of Menno Simons."
Jac. "You have heard that I do not receive the testimony of men, as a foundation for my faith."
Perceiving that he could get nothing else out of me, he asked me, "What is your determination?"
Jac. "I have declared my faith to you, and thereupon I have made my determination, until the contrary be proved to me." Inq."I have proved it to you sufficiently; but you will believe nothing but your fancy and obstinacy, and have forsaken the holy church."
Jac. "My lord, I have not forsaken the holy church; for if I had recognized your church as the holy church, I should not have forsaken it; to join another."
Inq. "Nevertheless, though Satan has thus deceived you, and you think that we are not the holy church, yet it is the same that it has always been from the times of the apostles, and been maintained through the holy teachers until the present time."
Jac. "If it is the same church which existed at the time of the apostles, it must have the same or like bishops and pastors as were then."
Inq. "Yes, and so we have."
Jac. "Well then, my lord, show me in your whole church only one bishop or pastor who is blameless in doctrine and life, even as Paul, or Timothy, or Titus, and I will follow him with all my heart."
Inq. "Have you such pastors- among you?"
Inq. "This cannot be compared to your case."
Jac. "My lord, it appears to me to be the same thing; for you .people say that if no help comes from God within the time appointed us by you, we must be delivered to death, and according to what you say, we are damned to all the devils."
Inq. "Jacques, there is no doubt about it."
Jac. "But how do you expect, my lord, to escape God's judgment, since you thus send us away to damnation? why do you not leave us in the hand of God until the end? for as long as we live here, hope may always be entertained of reformation, seeing you think that we are damned; but after death there is no longer any hope."
Inq. "I do not drive you to damnation; for I am not the one that judges you; nor ,will I be guilty, of your death."
Jac. "My lord, when Susanna was unjustly condemned to death, who bore the punishment, the judges, or the witnesses?"
Inq. "They that were guilty."
Jac. "My lord, the judges were rebuked by Daniel; but the witnesses were rebuked and punished."
Inq. "Do you think that I am witness in your case? I have come here simply to instruct you."
Jac. "My lord, yet I regard you as the principal witness; for upon your testimony will the judges sentence me to death, or release me, since for this purpose you have been sent here, and appointed by the king."
Inq."I do not wish them to condemn you upon my testimony; nor do I want to judge."
Jac. "My lord, when the judges will ask you in regard to me, what will you answer? will you not say that I am a heretic, and have deserved death?"
Inq. "No."
Jac. "My lord, I pray you, what will you say?"
Inq. "That you are deceived, and seduced from the right way."
Jac. "To be seduced, to err, or to be a heretic, my lord, appears to me to be all the same thing."
Inq. "Well, my son, think not that I have come here to condemn you to death; for you will be sentenced only upon the confession which you made before the commissary; for, as regards myself, I do not wish them to sentence you upon my word; nor would I have anything to do with it."
Jac. "My lord, I have not followed my business so long, and sat in the council for seven or eight years, so that I should not know what this amounts to; but the reason why I tell you this, is to warn you not to stain your hands with my blood; for I well know for what purpose you have been sent here." He now arose, and went away. The words just related we frequently had together afterwards.
On Monday, the 7th of February, 1558, I was again summoned before the same inquisitor. When I appeared before him, he saluted me, and asked, "How are you; have you the fever yet?"
Jac. "I am well, the Lord be praised for it; the fever left me three weeks ago, or thereabouts."
Inq. "How are you at ease in your conscience?"
Jac. "Very well, the Lord be praised for it."
He then made a long speech, too long to be briefly related, the sum and substance of which was, that he entreated me very much, that I should return to the holy Catholic church, and believe as becomes a good Christian, without investigating such high things, and wanting to be so wise. Thereupon I replied, "I investigate nothing but what I am permitted to believe; and I am well content, simply to believe that which a good Christian is bound to believe."
Inq."You indeed say that you want to believe as a good Christian, and yet you have a heretical faith."
Jac. "I have no such faith; but my faith is founded only upon the pure Word of God; and if you were content with the Word of God, you would also be satisfied with my faith."
Inq. "True, you quote the Word of God; but in your heart you understand differently, "
Jac. "As we believe, so speak we; and since we adduce to you the Scriptures, which are the Word of God, for a testimony of our faith, why are you not satisfied with it? for it belongs to God alone, and not to men to search the heart."
Inq. "What. then do you believe concerning Jesus Christ; whence did He take His flesh?"
Jac. "Do the Scriptures teach you that you must ask me this?"
Inq. "Because Menno says that He brought His flesh from heaven."
Jac. "I have not heard him say this."
Inq. "Yet he believes it."
Jac. "Menno's belief is that the Word was made flesh, acording to the testimony of John 1:14, or as the text in your Testament reads: became flesh."
Inq. "What do you believe concerning it?"
Jac. "I bethat Christ is the Son of the living God."
Inq. "Whence did He take His flesh?"
Jac. "I do not know, except that He is born of the Father."
Inq. "Do you not believe that He took His flesh in the womb of the virgin Mary?"
Jac. "My lord, if you can prove to me that Jesus and His apostles compelled any one to confess this, I will also confess it to you; for when Peter confessed Christ, that He was the Son of the living God, Christ did not ask him of whom He was made, but said that upon this rock He should build His church. Matt. 16:18. Again, when Candace's eunuch said to Philip, that he .believed that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and desired to be baptized upon this faith, Philip was satisfied, without inquiring as to whence He had taken His flesh." Acts 8:36.
Inq. "It was not necessary at that time to make such inquiry, since no difficulty existed yet concerning the matter."
Jac. "What need is there now?"
Inq. "Because there are so many heretics."
Jac. "There were enough heretics also in the days of the apostles; but the reason is this, that Satan always causes some vain controversy, to corrupt men's understanding, and to draw them into error."
Inq. "Then you will not confess that He took His flesh and blood in the virgin?"
Jac. "I will not investigate that which is above my understanding, ndmely, whereof the Son of God was made; for this was a miraculous work. However, that you may not think me a heretic, I confess Him to be the Son of God in every manner, in power and might, in spirit, in flesh and blood, begotten of the own substance of one only Father, namely, the eternal God, as the Scriptures testify to us; who was with the Father from eternity; and when the time of the promise was fulfilled, the eternal Word became flesh, and was conceived in a virgin, of the Holy Ghost, and born of said virgin Mary." Inq: "He assumed His flesh from, and was made of, our flesh; will you say nothing with regard to this?"
Jac. "I am satisfied with believing in regard to it acording to the Scriptures, without further investigation."
Inq. "Do not the Scriptures say that He took upon Him our flesh?"
Jac. "I have never read it, and I do not wish to dispute further; besides, you said that you would not dispute about it; why then do you ask me so much concerning it?"
Inq. "In order to see whether your faith is not like the faith of Menno Simons."
Jac. "You have heard that I do not receive the testimony of men, as a foundation for my faith."
Perceiving that he could get nothing else out of me, he asked me, "What is your determination?"
Jac. "I have declared my faith to you, and thereupon I have made my determination, until the contrary be proved to me." Inq."I have proved it to you sufficiently; but you will believe nothing but your fancy and obstinacy, and have forsaken the holy church."
Jac. "My lord, I have not forsaken the holy church; for if I had recognized your church as the holy church, I should not have forsaken it; to join another."
Inq. "Nevertheless, though Satan has thus deceived you, and you think that we are not the holy church, yet it is the same that it has always been from the times of the apostles, and been maintained through the holy teachers until the present time."
Jac. "If it is the same church which existed at the time of the apostles, it must have the same or like bishops and pastors as were then."
Inq. "Yes, and so we have."
Jac. "Well then, my lord, show me in your whole church only one bishop or pastor who is blameless in doctrine and life, even as Paul, or Timothy, or Titus, and I will follow him with all my heart."
Inq. "Have you such pastors- among you?"