[_ Old Earth _] matter and energy(and other fallacies of atheism)

[Featherbop]

I mean logical as: Making sense, being rational, etc.

Its a thing that happens when you use words, and the original meanings are off and stuuf, and it just happens with words and language. :-?

 

[cubedbee]

Its a thing that happens when you use words, and the original meanings are off and stuuf, and it just happens with words and language. :-?

Is English your first language? I don't mean to be offensive, but this sentence make no sense at all to me.

 

[cubedbee]

I don't see how matter could be eternal. Unless it is supernatural and has the abilities of God, or is God, it won't work.

Why can't matter be eternal? Why is it logically impossible? What specific abilites are required for something to be eternal? Science has always told us that matter/energy can be neither created or destroyed through normal physical processes. The Big Bang doesn't say that matter/energy was created from nothing, but that all the matter/energy of our universe was contained in a single point, which exploded rapidly outward.

Atheists assume that God is not real and that matter is eternal.

I've never met an atheist who assumed either of these things. Atheists assume that everything can be explained scientifically. If God were scientifically provable, they woudl accept him.

They don't continue to make assumtions to even try to make atheism make sense.

I don't follow what you're trying to say here.

You seem to be unable to see the illogic of matter on its on, being eternal. It had to have a starting point, because you have not claimed that matter is in anyway suopernatural or having God-like abilities. Its simple matter.

You seem unable to provide logical evidence that only the supernatural can be eternal. Just saying "Everything that isn't supernatural has a starting point" isn't using logic. You're assuming something.

It really bugs me how atheists never will give logical answers to this fallacy. oh well

It really bugs me that you continue to label others illogical while you haven't used a bit of logic in any post of yours I've ever read.

 

[Featherbop]

I don't see how matter could be eternal. Unless it is supernatural and has the abilities of God, or is God, it won't work.

Why can't matter be eternal? Why is it logically impossible? What specific abilites are required for something to be eternal? Science has always told us that matter/energy can be neither created or destroyed through normal physical processes. The Big Bang doesn't say that matter/energy was created from nothing, but that all the matter/energy of our universe was contained in a single point, which exploded rapidly outward.

Atheists assume that God is not real and that matter is eternal.

I've never met an atheist who assumed either of these things. Atheists assume that everything can be explained scientifically. If God were scientifically provable, they woudl accept him.
[quote:1ec42]
They don't continue to make assumtions to even try to make atheism make sense.

I don't follow what you're trying to say here.

You seem to be unable to see the illogic of matter on its on, being eternal. It had to have a starting point, because you have not claimed that matter is in anyway suopernatural or having God-like abilities. Its simple matter.

You seem unable to provide logical evidence that only the supernatural can be eternal. Just saying "Everything that isn't supernatural has a starting point" isn't using logic. You're assuming something.

It really bugs me how atheists never will give logical answers to this fallacy. oh well

It really bugs me that you continue to label others illogical while you haven't used a bit of logic in any post of yours I've ever read.[/quote:1ec42]

When it comes to assumtions, everyone makes them, and everyone who believes in something(everyone) must.

Why do you think it is logical for matter to be etrnal? I'm saying its not, because it had to get there. It had a beginning. Noone has explained to me(in atheist perception) how this is logicasl, or even likely, or even possible.

Why do you say that you've never met an atheist that assumes God isn't real? An atheist is a person who does not believe in God. Right?

Athesits make another assumtion in believing everythnig can be explained scientifically. Science deals with the physical creation, not spiritual things.

There can be no complete logic used here. We are debating something that we can't prove nor disprove. Some assumtions have to be made in order to believe somethings. Its one point I try to get across. Atheists make assumtions too. They seem to be blind to seeing it as assumtions though.

 

[cubedbee]

Why do you think it is logical for matter to be etrnal? I'm saying its not, because it had to get there. It had a beginning. Noone has explained to me(in atheist perception) how this is logicasl, or even likely, or even possible.

1. Matter/emergy can be neither created nor destroyed by any physical process.

2. Matter/energy exists currently.

3. Matter/energy has always existed.

This is a logical argument for the eternal nature of matter. Now, please outline the logic of believing that matter had a beginning.

 

[Featherbop]

Why do you think it is logical for matter to be etrnal? I'm saying its not, because it had to get there. It had a beginning. Noone has explained to me(in atheist perception) how this is logicasl, or even likely, or even possible.

1. Matter/emergy can be neither created nor destroyed by any physical process.

2. Matter/energy exists currently.

3. Matter/energy has always existed.

This is a logical argument for the eternal nature of matter. Now, please outline the logic of believing that matter had a beginning.

You are basically saying "I've never seen matter be created, so it was always there."

I could say "I don't have any memory of my coming into existance, so I must have always been here."

It's an assumtion. But I've already stressed this point.

That arguement is lacking in knowledge that would need to be known in order for that to be reasonable.

Its assumtions within an assumtion.

___

lets see, you still need to answer the "how is it possible for matter to be eternal?" also. And you needc a better arguement for the eternity of matter.

 

[Wertbag]

lets see, you still need to answer the "how is it possible for matter to be eternal?"

Have you read the responses? That question has been answered over and over. See cubedbee's point #1 above:
1. Matter/emergy can be neither created nor destroyed by any physical process.
We are not saying "I've never seen matter be created, so it was always there."
We are saying matter has been tested, we know its properties, we know what it will do when it reacts, we know it cannot be created or destroyed it only changes form. It doesn't matter how fast you move an atom, what temperature, what pressure, or how you attempt to inflict damage upon it it will always still exist. So knowing all this it makes perfect sense to say matter is eternal, its not supernatural, its the base of everything that is natural.
How does this differ from your example of "I could say "I don't have any memory of my coming into existance, so I must have always been here." ?
Its all about the testing, the evidence and what we know about matter. Its easy to prove a human hasn't always existed, and it goes against all the laws of nature, whereas all the testing we can do on matter tells us that it always has been.

Could you please tell me if you consider yourself a YEC? and do you also believe Noahs flood was a global event? Its not a trick question, and I don't mind if you perfer not to answer, just trying to understand your mindset.

 

[Featherbop]

Wertbag: matter not being able to be created or destroyed does not neccesarily indicate that it was always here. It all depends on who you ask. Some would say yes, and some would say no. Its not a convincing arguement, so I think no.

What about matter and energy being created to be neither created nor destroyed? If God made M&E destroyable, think of the disaters that would ensue....

so, basicall my points are:

Saying matter is eternal does not answer how its possible.

Matter being uncreatable does not indicate that it is eternal, it indicates it is not destroyable(by people, or processes).

 

[Featherbop]

Wertbag, as for your questions:

I do believe Noah's flood was global.

I am also a young earth creationist.

 

[cubedbee]

You're not making any sense. Why can't anything be eternal? Things aren't eternal because they wear away or get destroyed. We know that matter doesn't do this. Matter will last forever into the future without some sort of divine intervention. There is no reason to conclude that it hasn't reached forver into the past. You are mistaken about the burden of proof. It is logical that matter is eternal.

 

[Featherbop]

You're not making any sense. Why can't anything be eternal? Things aren't eternal because they wear away or get destroyed. We know that matter doesn't do this. Matter will last forever into the future without some sort of divine intervention. There is no reason to conclude that it hasn't reached forver into the past. You are mistaken about the burden of proof. It is logical that matter is eternal.

Are you an atheist too? You seem to like arguing their side.

anyway....You still have not shown me how matter can be eternal. Or how it is logical. You haven't made a good arguement yet. I do believe things could be eternal if God made them that way, and then God Himself is eternal, or out of time anyway. But I don't see enough evidence or logic to show matter as being eternal.

Here is the way it seems to me: There has always been God. He created the universe with matter and energy. He made these not to be destroyed. He had to make it. He had to give it a beginning. logical

A creator creates something that can't be destroyed. In no way do I see that because matter can't be destroyed, that indicates it is eternal.

It just doesn't follow.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

You're not making any sense. Why can't anything be eternal? Things aren't eternal because they wear away or get destroyed. We know that matter doesn't do this. Matter will last forever into the future without some sort of divine intervention. There is no reason to conclude that it hasn't reached forver into the past. You are mistaken about the burden of proof. It is logical that matter is eternal.

Are you an atheist too? You seem to like arguing their side.

anyway....You still have not shown me how matter can be eternal. Or how it is logical. You haven't made a good arguement yet. I do believe things could be eternal if God made them that way, and then God Himself is eternal, or out of time anyway.

There is no reason to believe that matter/energy is not eternal, all it does is exist and there are no instances of matter or energy spontaneously forming, for more than a few nanopico seconds, or spontaneously ceasing to exist. The only exception is hawking radiation, which is allowed to break thermodynamics because of its short life.
Why is god required to make things eternal?

But I don't see enough evidence or logic to show matter as being eternal.

How about the conservation of matter/energy? It's the basis of all physics and to an extent all science. If matter/energy was not eternal then I doubt the universe would work at all.

Here is the way it seems to me: There has always been God. He created the universe with matter and energy. He made these not to be destroyed. He had to make it. He had to give it a beginning. logical

Good for you, but that is not an acceptable claim because it arbitrarily requires the existence of undefined untestable entities to have a major role in the universe.

A creator creates something that can't be destroyed. In no way do I see that because matter can't be destroyed, that indicates it is eternal.

It just doesn't follow.

Energy and matter simply can't vanish by their nature they will always exist. Far in the future the universe will be completely black, the only things in it are ancient photons and sparse leptons, electrons etc.
When something is indestructable and increatable it can simply be assumed that it is eternal because nothing else logically follows without other assumptions adding baggage to the theory.

 

[Featherbop]

now we're just going in circles.

Assuming that matter is eternal becuase it can't be destroyed or created, in no way shows me that it is eternal, that it has always been existant.

That assumtion lacks too much information in between assumtions.

The bottom line is it had to get there. I don't see anyone giving good logic, reasons, or even assumtions as to how this is possible or true.

Someone answer how matter can be eternal? How is that possible?

 

[cubedbee]

The bottom line is it had to get there. I don't see anyone giving good logic, reasons, or even assumtions as to how this is possible or true.

You have repeatedly said this without any support. Why did it have to get there? What is your logical basis for saying everything must have a beginning?

We can see that matter/energy doesn't have an end. It is illogical to conclude that it does have a beginning unless there is compelling evidence for this conclusion. You have failed to provide this. I am done with this conversation. I am a Christian, not an atheist, but I know how to logically and critically. You do not.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

Bop listen to yourself:
There is no logical reason to believe that matter/energy are eternal aside from the fact that it's never not existed.

That assumtion lacks too much information in between assumtions.

Actually it tells us a lot. This assumption makes predictions about the universe that can be tested and it's looking, according to some of the BBTs that it works that way.

 

[Featherbop]

Having matter not pop out of thin air tells that it was created at a point.

Seriously. Saying something exists but was never made, never had a beginning, and can't be destroyed, is ludacris. Illogical. stupid.

Its a huge cop out to say "well ugh its always been there."

Thats avoiding the answer. Somebody tell me how it got there. There is no such things as "its always been there", for matter. Its an assumtion, and a poor one at that.

Stop copping out and answer the question. No double standards. No dodging.

 

[Featherbop]

Bop listen to yourself:
There is no logical reason to believe that matter/energy are eternal aside from the fact that it's never not existed.

That assumtion lacks too much information in between assumtions.

Actually it tells us a lot. This assumption makes predictions about the universe that can be tested and it's looking, according to some of the BBTs that it works that way.

You don't know that its not never existed. It is most logical to assume that someone created the matter, not that the matter was always there.

What faith you must have, syntax, to believe the things you do.

 

[Featherbop]

The bottom line is it had to get there. I don't see anyone giving good logic, reasons, or even assumtions as to how this is possible or true.

You have repeatedly said this without any support. Why did it have to get there? What is your logical basis for saying everything must have a beginning?

We can see that matter/energy doesn't have an end. It is illogical to conclude that it does have a beginning unless there is compelling evidence for this conclusion. You have failed to provide this. I am done with this conversation. I am a Christian, not an atheist, but I know how to logically and critically. You do not.

You don't have support for the arguement for matter being eternal. Saying we have never seen matter be created, nor matter be destroyed, etc, in no way proves or even suggests that matter is eternal.

Anyhow, goodbye. If you'll up the seriousness of your arguements, come on back.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

Having matter not pop out of thin air tells that it was created at a point.

Seriously. Saying something exists but was never made, never had a beginning, and can't be destroyed, is ludacris. Illogical. stupid.

So the fact that matter does not pop out of nothing means it was popped out of nothing?
This is a complete departure from logic.

The matter/energy in the universe is constant, there is a finite and unchanging amount of stuff in the universe. This is observed fact.

You are saying that matter can be destroyed. There is no process that can de-exist matter/energy. Unless you can show a process by which matter/energy can be destroyed, you are making an unsupported positive claim.

Its a huge cop out to say "well ugh its always been there."

Thats avoiding the answer. Somebody tell me how it got there. There is no such things as "its always been there", for matter. Its an assumtion, and a poor one at that.

So it's a huge cop out to say what is obvious from what we know to be true? It's the basis of virtually ALL science and science works. Your claim would mean that all of science is wrong and the universe is COMPLETELY different from the pervailing theories that explain it. The fact that science works makes your claim so improbable as to be laughable.

Stop copping out and answer the question. No double standards. No dodging.

99.99999999999999999999% certainty to .00000000000000000001% probability is not a double standard. Your argument is possible, I'll give you that, but it's also probable that water is dry, iron is extremely unstable and that your brain has a Schwartzchild radius, but those are still more likely than your claim.

 

[Featherbop]

Having matter not pop out of thin air tells that it was created at a point.

Seriously. Saying something exists but was never made, never had a beginning, and can't be destroyed, is ludacris. Illogical. stupid.

So the fact that matter does not pop out of nothing means it was popped out of nothing?
This is a complete departure from logic.

The matter/energy in the universe is constant, there is a finite and unchanging amount of stuff in the universe. This is observed fact.

You are saying that matter can be destroyed. There is no process that can de-exist matter/energy. Unless you can show a process by which matter/energy can be destroyed, you are making an unsupported positive claim.

Its a huge cop out to say "well ugh its always been there."

Thats avoiding the answer. Somebody tell me how it got there. There is no such things as "its always been there", for matter. Its an assumtion, and a poor one at that.

So it's a huge cop out to say what is obvious from what we know to be true? It's the basis of virtually ALL science and science works. Your claim would mean that all of science is wrong and the universe is COMPLETELY different from the pervailing theories that explain it. The fact that science works makes your claim so improbable as to be laughable.
[quote:f2cc9]
Stop copping out and answer the question. No double standards. No dodging.

99.99999999999999999999% certainty to .00000000000000000001% probability is not a double standard. Your argument is possible, I'll give you that, but it's also probable that water is dry, iron is extremely unstable and that your brain has a Schwartzchild radius, but those are still more likely than your claim.[/quote:f2cc9]

What I said about matter being destroyed was that I thought it could be destroyed. But isn't it that matter is energy, and M&E can not be destroyed, but changezs form only. No matter how you slice the apple, it doesn't indicate that matter is eternal. Unless you're biased....

Also, that the amount of energy is constant does not prove, or even suggest matter was eternal.

that matter does not pop out of thin air does not show matter has always been here.

There is no way to prove either way. anyone who says they can prove matter is eternal or not eternal is either lying or has no clue that they can't do it. Science can not prove that matter is eternal or not.

Science is not the field for this job.

Saying matter is eternal and giving no explanation howe its there is a copout and a dodge. Noone ever answers this, becuase they can't.

If science claims it knows matter is eternal, or thinks that it seems that way, sounds like a conspiracy maybe......Not that science is a cxonspiracy, but its been turned into a tool for atheists.

Anyway, I'm hopelessly looking for the answer to "If matter is eternal, how did it get there?"