Matthew 22:41 What think ye of Christ? Whose Son is he?

[2Pillars]

Dear wavy,

You seems to be in continued DENIAL mode, heh? :-D

Do you also think Jesus was just pulling our legs because you already know his God's name -- "Yahweh"-- before you overcometh the end?

So, are you saying that Revelation 3:12 is translated wrong? :roll:

Anyway, perhaps, it's better for me to ask you a simple question instead, based on yours and everybody' else religious view.

Here’s a simple question for the opposing party for the record - in order for me to bild my case. Thanks

Who do you think the Lord of Host being referred to as our GOD - THY MAKER and thine husband in Isaiah 54:5?

"For THY MAKER is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth SHALL he be called."

Multiple Choice:

(a) the Father

(b) the Son

(c) I do not know


Please list your answer here - Everybody is welcome.


God Bless

 

[wavy]

Dear wavy,

You seems to be in continued DENIAL mode, heh? :-D

Do you also think Jesus was just pulling our legs because you already know his God's name -- "Yahweh"-- before you overcometh the end?

So, are you saying that Revelation 3:12 is translated wrong? :roll:

Denial mode? Denying what? You have inserted into the scripture that because Yahshua writes his Father's name on us, that this means we do not know what it is.

How you get that from that scripture, I do not know. So I cannot deny something just because you say something says something that it does not specifically say.

So now, Revelation 3:12 is not translated wrong.

Anyway, perhaps, it's better for me to ask you a simple question instead, based on yours and everybody' else religious view.

Here’s a simple question for the opposing party for the record....

Who do you think the Lord of Host being referred to as our GOD - THY MAKER and thine husband in Isaiah 54:5?

"For THY MAKER is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth SHALL he be called."

Multiple Choice: (a) the Father (b) the Son (c) I do not know

Please list your answer here - Everybody is welcome.

God Bless

Both Father and Son. The Hebrew is plural here:

English:
For thy maker is thine husband
Hebrew:
ki baalecha asechah = literally, "because your husbands are your maker".

Also,

English:
thy redeemer
Hebrew:
ve goalecha = literally, "and your redeemers".

The plurality of Yahweh is seen here.

 

[2Pillars]

Dear wavy,

Just for Clarification.

So are telling us that there are two Divine Beings being spoken in the text, Isaiah 54:5 as the Lord (Hebrews # 3068) of host -Thy Maker?


God Bless

 

[wavy]

Yes. The plurality of Yahweh. Father & Son are echad.

 

[2Pillars]

Correct me if I am wrong on my understanding of your trinity doctrine...

Is it not, your position that the person of the Father is not the person of the Son and is not the person of the Holy Spirit - vise versa?

IF not, then please educate me...

Who do you consider as the Father?

Who do you consider as the Son?


Thanks

 

[wavy]

Correct me if I am wrong on my understanding of your trinity doctrine...

I do not believe in the trinity.

Is it not, your position that the person of the Father is not the parson of the Son and is not the person of the Holy Spirit - vise versa?

No. It is my belief that they share the same person (attributes, character etc). But that they are different powers. They have different positions.

Who do you consider as the Father?

Yahweh. Supreme deity. Greater than al (John 10:29). Above all, in all through all (Ephesians 4:6). Designed the universe through his spoken and living Word (i.e. the Son - Hebrews 1:2). Deserves all the glory and worship and praise. The only true elohim (John 17:3).

Who do you consider as the Son?

The visible manifestation of the Father. Possessing all the Father's attributes. Submissive to the Father. Created the universe according to his Father's design and will and purpose. Not the Father's equal.

Called the Father's "right hand" and "arm" in scripture. His saving power.
Taken from within the Father's bosom (Psalm 74:11; John 1:18).

 

[2Pillars]

Dear wavy,

Ok, then, since you obviously don't know were to stand or where to affirm you belief, regarding the "person" of the Father and Son, then, let us just go back to you previous response to my question for further clarification...

Here’s a simple question for the opposing party for the record....

Who do you think the Lord of Host being referred to as our GOD - THY MAKER is thine husband in Isaiah 54:5?

"For THY MAKER is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth SHALL he be called."

Multiple Choice: (a) the Father (b) the Son (c) I do not know

Please list your answer here - Everybody is welcome.

God Bless

Both Father and Son. The Hebrew is plural here:

English:
For thy maker is thine husband
Hebrew:
ki baalecha asechah = literally, "because your husbands are your maker".
Also,

English:
thy redeemer
Hebrew:
ve goalecha = literally, "and your redeemers".

The plurality of Yahweh is seen here.

Where do you see that the text is speaking of husbands (plural) in Isaiah 54:5? How many husband does the text speak of?

If so, is this not adulltery and against the righteouness of the Lord? :-D

Also, how did you come up that the REDEEMER spoken in the text is plural? What Bible rendition are you using?

You see, the way I look at it, you're adding more to what the Scripture says just to suit your flawed religious belief, would that be a fair statement? Please explain yourself.

Just answer my clarificatory questions. Thanks

God Bless

 

[Georges]

I believe YHWH is Jesus Christ himself, the Son of the Invisible God Almighty Father - whose name is not yet known to any man, at this time.

Do you agree?

Matthew 22:41-46
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Your thought please...


God Bless

In the Messianic Kingdom, all of the Patriarch's (that is the ancestor's of Jesus) will be resurrected to enjoy the Messianic Millennium. Jesus, the Messiah will rule the Messianic Kingdom therefore he is Lord of the Messianic Kindom under God (LORD) and he is above the patriarchs, including David.

All of Davids sons throught the generations are son's of David, however there is only 1 Son of David.

 

[Imagican]

I'm still real confused as to why God the Father didn't call Himself God the Son? Why didn't He just reveal Himself AND Christ as GOD? The mystery that has been created by the 'trinity' makes absolutely NO sense until you bring paganism into Christianity. Jesus called God HIS FATHER. He NEVER ONCE stated that he WAS GOD. The apostles NEVER ONCE stated that Jesus WAS God.

I once again place you in a position to have NEVER heard of 'trinity'. You pick up a Bible and through your reading, you accept Christ into your heart and begin to develope a relationship with the Father. Still, no one has EVER mentioned 'trinity' to you. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that you would EVER believe and accept that Christ and God are ONE and the SAME.

The entire OT teaches that there is ONLY ONE GOD. Then comes the NT. In it's entirety it teaches that Jesus Christ IS THE SON OF GOD.

The ONLY possible way that one could even know the 'word' 'trinity' would be for someone OUTSIDE the Bible to teach it to them.

So, for all you 'trinitarians' out there; I propose that you have bought into the 'religion' of man instead of following the words of God or His Son. Logically there IS no other choice. It's either an understanding of the Word as offered by God, or one would be forced to choose 'something' else. Anything other than the Word as offered by God is 'man-made' theology.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

:angel:

 

[Solo]

I'm still real confused as to why God the Father didn't call Himself God the Son? Why didn't He just reveal Himself AND Christ as GOD? The mystery that has been created by the 'trinity' makes absolutely NO sense until you bring paganism into Christianity. Jesus called God HIS FATHER. He NEVER ONCE stated that he WAS GOD. The apostles NEVER ONCE stated that Jesus WAS God.

I once again place you in a position to have NEVER heard of 'trinity'. You pick up a Bible and through your reading, you accept Christ into your heart and begin to develope a relationship with the Father. Still, no one has EVER mentioned 'trinity' to you. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that you would EVER believe and accept that Christ and God are ONE and the SAME.

The entire OT teaches that there is ONLY ONE GOD. Then comes the NT. In it's entirety it teaches that Jesus Christ IS THE SON OF GOD.

The ONLY possible way that one could even know the 'word' 'trinity' would be for someone OUTSIDE the Bible to teach it to them.

So, for all you 'trinitarians' out there; I propose that you have bought into the 'religion' of man instead of following the words of God or His Son. Logically there IS no other choice. It's either an understanding of the Word as offered by God, or one would be forced to choose 'something' else. Anything other than the Word as offered by God is 'man-made' theology.

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:54-58

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him,My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
John 20:26-29

 

[mutzrein]

Gee no response for a while - plenty of thought going into this one.

 

[hybrid]

John 10:33
33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
NIV

 

[mutzrein]

John 10:33
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
KJV

 

[hybrid]

John 10:39
39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.
NKJV

.

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

I appreciate your response. I also appreciate your attempt at answering my question.

I am aware of much that 'trinitarians' use at an attempt at 'proving' their doctrine. The problem is that it doesn't wash.

'I am' is simply another one of these 'weak' attempts. And your second quote is 'not' by Jesus or God, but by a man 'nicknamed' Doubting Thomas. Using this as 'some kind of proof', is no different than trying to offer the RC doctrine of 'trinity' as 'some kind' of proof. Once again we are dealing with the words of men rather than the Word of God.

And, out of ALL the debate that I have been a participant, not once has ANYONE offered an explanation to a 'number' of my objections to 'trinity'.

Only the Father Himself knows the answer to this............. Father, let this cup pass over me...............Father forgive them for they know not what they do.......................... My Father, why hast thou forsaken me..............

These are just a few, but they are pretty good ones. If God and Christ were/are actual 'one and the same', why do we have Christ Himself stating that He and the Father 'are NOT' one and the same.

And please don't misunderstand my view. I worship God and I worship Christ. I simply DO NOT worship Christ AS God. I trust in God's Word and in this Word I am told that there is ONLY ONE GOD. Christ proves this when approached and called 'good' Master. His response is that there is ONLY ONE that is 'good' and that is the Father in heaven.

Many people are confused about worship. They believe that 'anything' that they worship 'other than God' is 'wrong'. I don't, We worship ALL that we love. We were simply told to worship NOTHING other than God as God. Christ is certainly worthy of our worship, but as Christ, the Son of God, and NOT God Himself. There is ONE Father, and ONE Son, and ONE Holy Spirit. Each has Their OWN particular role and entity. This is obvious in the 'fact' that their names ARE NOT interchangable. Each is specific in Their description, name and personage. God the Father, Christ the Son and mediator, the Holy Spirit the comforter. All a 'part' of Godhead, but each Their own entity.

 

[2Pillars]

To: Mutzrein; hybrid; Imagican; or ANYBODY:

Let us just cut the chase and go directly to the issue...

Again, here’s a very simple question for the opposing party -- who don't believe that Jesus is YHWH himself, the Son of God -- in order to have a foundational basis of discussion and for the record.

Who do you think the Lord (Heb.#3068) of Host being referred to as "THY MAKER is thine husband" in Isaiah 54:5 - based on your own religious doctrinal belief?

"For THY MAKER is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth SHALL he be called."

Multiple Choice:

(a) YHWH - God Father

(b) Jesus - Son

(c) I do not know


Please list your answer here - Everybody is welcome


God Bless

 

[wavy]

Dear wavy,

Ok, then, since you obviously don't know were to stand or where to affirm you belief, regarding the "person" of the Father and Son,

I don't why why you would state this. I believe I gave you direct answers:

I do not believe in the trinity.

No. It is my belief that they share the same person (attributes, character etc). But that they are different powers. They have different positions.

Quote 2Pillars:
Who do you consider as the Father?

Yahweh. Supreme deity. Greater than al (John 10:29). Above all, in all through all (Ephesians 4:6). Designed the universe through his spoken and living Word (i.e. the Son - Hebrews 1:2). Deserves all the glory and worship and praise. The only true elohim (John 17:3).

Quote 2Pillars:
Who do you consider as the Son?

The visible manifestation of the Father. Possessing all the Father's attributes. Submissive to the Father. Created the universe according to his Father's design and will and purpose. Not the Father's equal.

Called the Father's "right hand" and "arm" in scripture. His saving power.
Taken from within the Father's bosom (Psalm 74:11; John 1:18).

Where do you see that the text is speaking of husbands (plural) in Isaiah 54:5? How many husband does the text speak of?

The base word is "baal", meaning "lord". The ending "echa" makes it plural. Same with word "makers". Asechah. Same with "redeemers". Goalecha. I'm sure you can see the similarities in the text.

If so, is this not adulltery and against the righteouness of the Lord? :-D

Well, I guess, considering the fact that baal means "lord/master", in all honesty it would critically mean "masters". "Husband" may be implied or not. Thinking about it though, "masters" would be appropriate.

So, not really "adultery".

What Bible rendition are you using?

A Hebrew bible called the "Restoration Scriptures".

You see, the way I look at it, you're adding more to what the Scripture says just to suit your flawed religious belief, would that be a fair statement? Please explain yourself.

Well, you could have asked first, seen the evidence, and then concluded this if my evidence was weak...

But anyway, I guess my answer is "no". That is not a fair statement.

 

[2Pillars]

Dear wavy,

IOW, you don't know who the Lord of host is being spoken in Isaiah 54:5, Since, you can NOT make up your mind whether it is YHWH, the Father or Jesus, the Son - based on your religious belief, correct?

Would that be your final answer to the multiple choice, letter (c)? I DON"T KNOW? :-D

The cited text is not meant to prove the duality or plurality of our Lord. That is just out of context.

I am just doing a SURVEY where my opposition stand on this matter based on their religious view - for the purpose of continuing discussion and for the record.

Therefore, let's give others a chance and see where they stand on this matter. Thanks.


God Bless

 

[Solo]

Solo,

I appreciate your response. I also appreciate your attempt at answering my question.

I am aware of much that 'trinitarians' use at an attempt at 'proving' their doctrine. The problem is that it doesn't wash.

'I am' is simply another one of these 'weak' attempts. And your second quote is 'not' by Jesus or God, but by a man 'nicknamed' Doubting Thomas. Using this as 'some kind of proof', is no different than trying to offer the RC doctrine of 'trinity' as 'some kind' of proof. Once again we are dealing with the words of men rather than the Word of God.

And, out of ALL the debate that I have been a participant, not once has ANYONE offered an explanation to a 'number' of my objections to 'trinity'.

Only the Father Himself knows the answer to this............. Father, let this cup pass over me...............Father forgive them for they know not what they do.......................... My Father, why hast thou forsaken me..............

These are just a few, but they are pretty good ones. If God and Christ were/are actual 'one and the same', why do we have Christ Himself stating that He and the Father 'are NOT' one and the same.

And please don't misunderstand my view. I worship God and I worship Christ. I simply DO NOT worship Christ AS God. I trust in God's Word and in this Word I am told that there is ONLY ONE GOD. Christ proves this when approached and called 'good' Master. His response is that there is ONLY ONE that is 'good' and that is the Father in heaven.

Many people are confused about worship. They believe that 'anything' that they worship 'other than God' is 'wrong'. I don't, We worship ALL that we love. We were simply told to worship NOTHING other than God as God. Christ is certainly worthy of our worship, but as Christ, the Son of God, and NOT God Himself. There is ONE Father, and ONE Son, and ONE Holy Spirit. Each has Their OWN particular role and entity. This is obvious in the 'fact' that their names ARE NOT interchangable. Each is specific in Their description, name and personage. God the Father, Christ the Son and mediator, the Holy Spirit the comforter. All a 'part' of Godhead, but each Their own entity.

I am not a trinitarian, I am a believer saved by faith in Jesus Christ. It is that belief which has shown me that Jesus is God. Before I was born again, I did not believe that Jesus was God, I believed that he was the Son of God. That was while I attended the Trinity Lutheran church, baptized, confirmed, a member, and lost on my way to hell. As soon as I was born again, I came to personnally know Jesus Christ as my LORD and Savior. Jesus is God.

Jehovah Witness doctrine teaches their folks that Jesus is not God, and that Jesus was created by God. That is a lie.

Jesus is God. Those that do not profess that Jesus is God are antiChrist according to the scriptures.

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:1-3