Matthew 25: 41-46 and the soul of man

[freewill]

Matthew 25: 41-46 is another piece of Scripture which traditional Reformed believers and others can often be seen using in order to defend their belief that the least offensive of condemned souls will be made to suffer something like this: "Do but consider what it is to suffer extreme torment forever and ever: to suffer it day and night from one year to another, from one age to another, and from one thousand ages to another (and so adding age to age, and thousands to thousands), in pain, in wailing and lamenting, groaning and shrieking, and gnashing your teeth — with your souls full of dreadful grief and amazement, and with your bodies and every member full of racking torture; without any possibility of getting ease; without any possibility of moving God to pity by your cries; without any possibility of hiding yourselves from him; without any possibility of diverting your thoughts from your pain "from "The Eternity of Hell's Torments" April 1739 by Jonathan Edwards.

Charles H Spurgeon who's work is also still highly respected by a great many evangelical Christians across the world, also preached: "When thou diest thy soul will be tormented alone—that will be a hell for it—but at the day of judgment thy body will join thy soul, and then thou wilt have twin hells, body and soul shall be together, each brimfull of pain, thy soul sweating in its inmost pore drops of blood, and thy body from head to foot suffused with agony; conscience, judgment, memory, all tortured, but more—thy head tormented with racking pains, thine eyes starting from their sockets with sights of blood and woe; thine ears tormented with
"Sullen moans and hollow groans. And shrieks of tortured ghosts."
"From his sermon "The Resurrection of the Dead" February 17, 1856

Yes, this is what many followers and admirers of Jonathan Edwards and Charles Spurgeon still believe today would be “righteous justice” for the least offensive of condemned souls, even for those judged incapable of becoming trusted servants of God and creation who from their birth were deceived and indoctrinated, seduced, threatened or beaten into continually ignoring and offending the good they never rightly understood or experienced.

But let us take a closer look at what the verses of Matthew 25: 41 and 46 do actually say...

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” “46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal”.

I agree the word “punishment” in this context should be understood to be a punishment lasting forever, but I also see the words “everlasting punishment” can be seen to mean an everlasting punishment of everlasting “death” i.e. a cessation of life, just as easily as they can be seen to mean an everlasting punishment of everlasting torment. I have though seen others who will not accept the original Greek word for punishment (kolasis) in Matthew 25:46 is being used to describe merely punishment, they argue instead that it’s meaning should be more correctly translated as “torment”. However, the meaning of this word “kolasis” has been expounded well by Dr. Spiros Zodhiates who is recognised by many evangelical Christians as an authority in the Koine Greek language. His mother tongue was Greek and it is worth seeing a brief history of his life and work presented here http://en.wikipedia.org wiki/Spiros_Zodhiates in order to see why I believe his understanding of this word “kolasis” should not be ignored.

Zodhiates informs us that this word “kolasis”, from “kolazo”, does in fact mean, to punish; punishment, when viewed in the context of Matthew 25:46. Whilst at the same time in 1 John 4:18 he tells us that the word “kolasis” used there, can be seen to mean “torment” conveying the notion of “punishment for the correction and bettering of the offender”. He then goes on to explain that Matthew 25:46 however does not refer to temporary corrective punishment and discipline, but has more the meaning of “timoria”, found in Hebrews 10:29 (a noun meaning punishment, satisfying the inflicter’s sense of outraged justice, as defending his own honor or that of a violated law). So according to Zodhiates, with this word “kolasis” when it is found in these two contexts there can be seen different meanings being applied to it even though they are related. Also, the KJV, NKJV, ASV, NASB, ESV and NIV are regarded by many as probably the best translations we have from the Koine Greek and in Matthew 25:46 these versions all use the same word to explain the original meaning in this verse and that word chosen is “punishment” not “torment”.

I still cannot see then a good reason why the meaning of “kolasis” in Matthew 25:46 should not be seen as meaning “punishment”, or as another commentator puts it, “punishment that “fits” (matches) the one punished”. Neither then can I see a good reason why the original words, “aionios kolasis” in this verse, should not also be seen as anything other than a description of everlasting punishment – Anything ranging from everlasting death as in the literal meaning of the word to everlasting torment, depending on the gravity of the offence caused by each condemned soul and on how little or how great their understanding of God and His goodness was.


Despite what many learned Christians might say about the meaning of punishment in those verses then, the fact remains that death (as meaning a cessation of life) is also a punishment, and everlasting death therefore would be an everlasting punishment. According to Scripture souls can die, do die, and can be made alive again. A soul can also be completely destroyed by God if or when God so wills Matthew 10:28. God alone is immortal, not man or his soul or his worldly spirit, but God alone is immortal 1 Timothy 6:15-16, and He alone decides who else shall become immortal.

 

[freewill]

The apostle Paul once wrote…

“Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” Romans 1:19-20 KJV
…and these verses have led others to believe and preach that all who will be condemned will have received enough knowledge and understanding of God for Him to justify condemning them to everlasting torment.

However, in his study helps on Romans 1:20, KJV Zodhiates wrote: “The word translated “Godhead” is not the Greek theotes (2320) which indeed would have meant the Godhead; but theiotes (2305)which means merely divinity, the demonstrated power of the Godhead and not the essence and the character of the Godhead. By looking at nature one can conclude that indeed God is all powerful, but not necessarily that He is an all-loving God of righteousness and justice. There is only so much of God that one can know from God’s creation (v. 19), but to know the essence of God as a triune Deity, one needs to receive His revelation by faith. The rejection of what knowledge a person does have of God is what brings condemnation on him.” Furthermore, when the apostle Paul wrote those words in his letter to the Romans there was no such thing as Darwin’s theory of evolution. As fanciful or as flawed as it may be, this theory that all life on earth began to evolve completely by chance over 3 billion years ago is now being taught by many intellectual and influential atheists involved in ‘science’ as though it was a proven fact. Consequently, it has not only allowed many lost souls to reason God out of their concept of reality but over the years it has also allowed them to indoctrinate a vast and growing number of children to do the same.

I submit therefore that Romans 1:19-20 is by no means a good reason to believe and preach that all who will be condemned will have received enough knowledge and understanding of God for Him to justify condemning them to everlasting torment.

 

[smaller]

I submit therefore that Romans 1:19-20 is by no means a good reason to believe and preach that all who will be condemned will have received enough knowledge and understanding of God for Him to justify condemning them to everlasting torment.

Nothing personal, but that conclusion sounds like a typical exercise in "self justifications." We're taught that we don't have any of our own self righteousness that would lead us to conclude we are "self justified."

Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The Righteousness of God in Christ is a matter we "await" to "put on." Not that we have any FULLNESS of same, now. We probably can't even conceive of how Great a matter that is, currently, and have, as a fact, very pale reflections of same.

Galatians 5:5
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

 

[Jim Parker]

I agree the word “punishment” in this context should be understood to be a punishment lasting forever, but I also see the words “everlasting punishment” can be seen to mean an everlasting punishment of everlasting “death” i.e. a cessation of life, just as easily as they can be seen to mean an everlasting punishment of everlasting torment.

Because you can "see" it does not lend any weight to that interpretation.
The Jehovah's witnesses and 7th Day Adventists "see" it as annihilation of the soul. (Which they "see" as the body.)
There is a old was which says, "Interpret scripture with scripture." (And "what you see" is NOT scripture.)

Jesus used the word, "κόλασις" (kólasis) to describe the experience of the condemned. The meaning of that word according to Strong's is: "penal infliction:—punishment, torment" not annihilation or termination of existence in death.
Jesus used the same word, αἰώνιος (aiōnios) to describe the life of the blesses and the punishment of the condemned.
Thayers Lexicon defines the meaning of αἰώνιος at Mat 25:46 as "without end, never to cease, everlasting."

Is there some compelling reason why anyone should accept "what you see" over Thayer's and the translators of the KJV reported in Strong's?

iakov the fool

 

[freewill]

Nothing personal, but that conclusion sounds like a typical exercise in "self justifications." We're taught that we don't have any of our own self righteousness that would lead us to conclude we are "self justified."

Is there some compelling reason why anyone should accept "what you see" over Thayer's and the translators of the KJV reported in Strong's?
iakov the fool

We are free to believe what we want to believe and by what we want we shall be judged. As for me, I believe that by using Scripture and reason I can show there is no good reason to believe the God of Scripture is a twisted sadistic monster which many including some here, would want us to believe in and worship…

It is also now widely taught and believed that according to atheistic or secular science, the universe itself started over 13 billion years ago, and that it was also formed through a purely natural process without any need to include a creator God in the equation. What is more, this theory is also now being taught as fact by the media and by schools and universities to countless millions across the world. The so called evidence for evolution then which atheists and secularists keep gathering, is being naively accepted by more and more lost souls as evidence proving the Genesis account of creation is simply not true. It has therefore become all too easy for many to think it must be right to dismiss out of hand the creation story and the fall of man upon which the rest of the Bible stands as just another myth or fairy story. There are many therefore (agnostics, atheists, humanists, even believers in other gods) who are still living and dying never rightly understanding the good they ignored and offended. In which case, the man who through no fault of his own was born to die corrupted never knowing the God of truth, or never rightly understanding the good he kept offending, would never have been able to understand just how dangerous or offensive he really was.

Consider then if you will, the various cases where those who will be judged incapable of becoming trusted servants of God and creation who from their birth were deceived and indoctrinated, seduced, threatened or beaten into continually ignoring and offending the good they never experienced or rightly understood, and then consider this: Anyone born to live and die that way and then face the judgement cannot be justly held responsible for offending what they never understood or believed existed. Although remaining an offence to God and creation, to condemn such as these to be tortured forever would be like condemning a dangerous and hopeless wild animal to suffer in the same way, it would do no good and would therefore be seen to be an act of unnecessary and unjustified extreme cruelty to say the least.

And then consider this: Luke 12:35-48 KJV explains in part what will happen when Jesus Christ returns as Judge of all mankind…

Verse 47-48: “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes”. If then all of the condemned were to be punished with everlasting torment, then those who did not know God’s will at His return would need to experience many or an infinite number of beatings. But we are told “he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes” and the word “few” cannot possibly mean an infinite number. Neither then can it mean “everlasting torment”.

It should also be noted that in Luke 12:48 ESV, it is worded: “But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating.” That being said, to describe living forever in an inferno of constant torment as a light beating would be grossly inaccurate and absurd...

 

[smaller]

We are free to believe what we want to believe and by what we want we shall be judged.

Some believe judgment has already been determined. We were all found quite entirely guilty, without alternative pleas or claims of any sort. Romans 3:9, Romans 3:19.

As for me, I believe that by using Scripture and reason I can show there is no good reason to believe the God of Scripture is a twisted sadistic monster which many including some here, would want us to believe in and worship…

I find it quite comforting that God is against sin and evil myself. Don't you? Where christian theology gets interesting is when seeing Gods multiplication or amplification of evil towards evil. Provides for rightful fear and healthy respect for our Maker. Isa. 31:2

It is also now widely taught and believed that according to atheistic or secular science, the universe itself started over 13 billion years ago, and that it was also formed through a purely natural process without any need to include a creator God in the equation. What is more, this theory is also now being taught as fact by the media and by schools and universities to countless millions across the world. The so called evidence for evolution then which atheists and secularists keep gathering, is being naively accepted by more and more lost souls as evidence proving the Genesis account of creation is simply not true.

Some believers don't find as much tension in the protology scriptures with science as others who are strict literalists. I will agree that the subtraction of God is not a good thing, but what do we expect from the spiritually blinded? There are some highly educated scientists and philosophers who do have respect for the mystery of God, if God is quite rightfully contemplated in that way. Freeman Dyson and Carl Yung come to mind.

It has therefore become all too easy for many to think it must be right to dismiss out of hand the creation story and the fall of man upon which the rest of the Bible stands as just another myth or fairy story.

The difficulty with any Bible account is when we buy into incomplete stories and then claim those partial sights as hard Rock truth. It's never the case that partial sights are complete/all truth. I believe for example that God created all things, without exceptions of a single thing that exists, visible or invisible and this includes the power of evil. But if you ask for a show of hands among believers, the majority really don't believe that The Creator is that Dominant. Far from it usually.

There are many therefore (agnostics, atheists, humanists, even believers in other gods) who are still living and dying never rightly understanding the good they ignored and offended. In which case, the man who through no fault of his own was born to die corrupted never knowing the God of truth, or never rightly understanding the good he kept offending, would never have been able to understand just how dangerous or offensive he really was.

I expect, in the final analysis, God will always do not only the right things, but the Perfect. It will be problematic for any of us reasoning from the seat of partial sights to see Perfectly. I'd like to see christians more honest myself. It would take away a lot of animosities between us all if we just stopped and said, NO, none of us have a Perfect Picture of anything. Belief in God seems to do some very dangerous things to the mind in some cases, turning the believers into little mini gods of their own making.

Consider then if you will, the various cases where those who will be judged incapable of becoming trusted servants of God and creation who from their birth were deceived and indoctrinated, seduced, threatened or beaten into continually ignoring and offending the good they never experienced or rightly understood, and then consider this: Anyone born to live and die that way and then face the judgement cannot be justly held responsible for offending what they never understood or believed existed.

IF you believe in God in Christ, then you'd believe that God will do that which is right and good. Will everyone else believe that? No. And don't expect them to. If there is one thing, just one thing that the Bible teaches very clearly, it is that man does have evil in our hearts. And that my friend is a fact for ALL. I think God could snap His Finger and in an instant, all evil could be gone. But, since this isn't happening, I've learned to see that evil in us is meant to bring us to Gods Mercy in Christ. Which Mercy I happen to be exceptionally fond of. IF God in Christ can be and has been Merciful to me, then He can likewise be merciful to anyone. And CAN make anyone come to know His Mercy, if He so chooses to do so. Romans 9:18.

Although remaining an offence to God and creation, to condemn such as these to be tortured forever would be like condemning a dangerous and hopeless wild animal to suffer in the same way, it would do no good and would therefore be seen to be an act of unnecessary and unjustified extreme cruelty to say the least.

I'd suggest there is a place for eternal torment. Particularly if applied properly. Oh, let's take an example of the devil and his messengers. Do they deserve eternal torment? Of course. So why fight it? Direct your sights to be in alignment at least with that direction and you wouldn't be so tormented over the fact yourself.

It's difficult to see the construct of man. In fact, it's impossible unless we see ourselves "accurately" in the Light of Word Disclosures. When we pray, "deliver us from evil" it's not referring to the evil of others, but of ourselves.

 

[Butch5]

Because you can "see" it does not lend any weight to that interpretation.
The Jehovah's witnesses and 7th Day Adventists "see" it as annihilation of the soul. (Which they "see" as the body.)
There is a old was which says, "Interpret scripture with scripture." (And "what you see" is NOT scripture.)

Jesus used the word, "κόλασις" (kólasis) to describe the experience of the condemned. The meaning of that word according to Strong's is: "penal infliction:—punishment, torment" not annihilation or termination of existence in death.
Jesus used the same word, αἰώνιος (aiōnios) to describe the life of the blesses and the punishment of the condemned.
Thayers Lexicon defines the meaning of αἰώνιος at Mat 25:46 as "without end, never to cease, everlasting."

Is there some compelling reason why anyone should accept "what you see" over Thayer's and the translators of the KJV reported in Strong's?

iakov the fool

I'd say yeah, since they are contrary to the Scriptures.

 

[Butch5]

We are free to believe what we want to believe and by what we want we shall be judged. As for me, I believe that by using Scripture and reason I can show there is no good reason to believe the God of Scripture is a twisted sadistic monster which many including some here, would want us to believe in and worship…

It is also now widely taught and believed that according to atheistic or secular science, the universe itself started over 13 billion years ago, and that it was also formed through a purely natural process without any need to include a creator God in the equation. What is more, this theory is also now being taught as fact by the media and by schools and universities to countless millions across the world. The so called evidence for evolution then which atheists and secularists keep gathering, is being naively accepted by more and more lost souls as evidence proving the Genesis account of creation is simply not true. It has therefore become all too easy for many to think it must be right to dismiss out of hand the creation story and the fall of man upon which the rest of the Bible stands as just another myth or fairy story. There are many therefore (agnostics, atheists, humanists, even believers in other gods) who are still living and dying never rightly understanding the good they ignored and offended. In which case, the man who through no fault of his own was born to die corrupted never knowing the God of truth, or never rightly understanding the good he kept offending, would never have been able to understand just how dangerous or offensive he really was.

Consider then if you will, the various cases where those who will be judged incapable of becoming trusted servants of God and creation who from their birth were deceived and indoctrinated, seduced, threatened or beaten into continually ignoring and offending the good they never experienced or rightly understood, and then consider this: Anyone born to live and die that way and then face the judgement cannot be justly held responsible for offending what they never understood or believed existed. Although remaining an offence to God and creation, to condemn such as these to be tortured forever would be like condemning a dangerous and hopeless wild animal to suffer in the same way, it would do no good and would therefore be seen to be an act of unnecessary and unjustified extreme cruelty to say the least.

And then consider this: Luke 12:35-48 KJV explains in part what will happen when Jesus Christ returns as Judge of all mankind…

Verse 47-48: “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes”. If then all of the condemned were to be punished with everlasting torment, then those who did not know God’s will at His return would need to experience many or an infinite number of beatings. But we are told “he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes” and the word “few” cannot possibly mean an infinite number. Neither then can it mean “everlasting torment”.

It should also be noted that in Luke 12:48 ESV, it is worded: “But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating.” That being said, to describe living forever in an inferno of constant torment as a light beating would be grossly inaccurate and absurd...

Good post! This doctrine is based on the idea that the soul is immortal. Since the wicked can't be with God, if they are immortal they have to be somewhere. So, those who hold this doctrine need somewhere to put them. Enter Hell. The Bible is more than clear on this issue. 'The wages of sin is death.' 'The soul that sins shall die'. Jesus said God so loved the world that those who believe should not perish. The Bible doesn't teach ETC. That's Greek Philosophy. The Bible teaches that the dead are dead.

 

[freewill]

I'd suggest there is a place for eternal torment. Particularly if applied properly. Oh, let's take an example of the devil and his messengers. Do they deserve eternal torment? Of course. So why fight it?

I'm not fighting it, I don't have a problem with “eternal torment” for as long as I can see good biblical and moral reasons to justify believing there is such a thing. Right now I can, so let me begin to try and explain again what I see.

God repeatedly warns in the New Testament of a greater condemnation for all who know the revelation of His will through Jesus Christ and hate the truth and seek to offend what they know is good. All who share in Satan’s knowledge of the truth along with his contempt for the truth and seek only pleasure satisfying their depraved desires and needs which they know will cause the greatest offence to God and creation shall justly receive the greater condemnation. Revelation 14:9-11 and Revelation 20:10 together with Revelation 14:6 for example serve well to help explain this. That being said though, over the centuries many Christians were regularly taught like many are still being taught today: The endless torment described in chapters 14 and 20 of Revelation shows the kind of punishment that all of the condemned will be made to suffer. It is well documented that Roman Catholic and Reformed teachers over many generations have often used these verses to uphold the doctrine of immortality and endless torment coming to all who are condemned. But look again and see what these verses actually do tell us…

In Revelation 20:10 NKJV we are clearly told, "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever”. But please note, this verse tells us that only the devil, the beast and the false prophet are spoken of here. No one else is included in this verse. Revelation 14:9-11 ESV also speaks clearly of everlasting torment, "Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”” But note again, we are being told here of everlasting torment coming only upon those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. In other words, this statement made by the third angel does not by any means tell us all of the condemned will be given the same punishment or condemnation as the demonic worshippers mentioned here.

Furthermore, those worshippers of Revelation 14:9-11 can be seen worshipping the beast and his image after the "the eternal gospel” was seen being proclaimed "to those who dwell on the earth – to every nation and tribe and language and people”, as Revelation 14:6 ESV explains. In which case, the sentence of endless torment given to those seen worshipping the beast and his image appears to be given not only because of their satanic worship and their receiving of the mark of the beast but also because they were made aware of the eternal gospel. Having been given knowledge of the truth and of the meaning of good and evil, and having been shown the way of salvation those demonic souls are moved only to offend with all the lust and venom of Satan himself. By their unrelenting hatred and contempt for God and truth they will bring the greater condemnation upon themselves. So yes, I can see God warning us of a punishment of endless torment in these verses, but certainly not for every condemned soul. (annihilationists will argue that aiōnas tōn aiōnōn doesn't mean forever but I think we shall just have to wait and see) The key to living forever is knowing God but how we react to that knowledge in this life will largely determine our state in eternity. The wages of sin is death as revealed in Genesis chapters 2, 3 and 5 and elsewhere in the Bible, but the wages for the vilest form of evil can be seen revealed in Scripture as being a punishment of endless torment.

I will explain more of the good reasons I see to justify believing there is such a thing as endless torment for those most evil of the condemned later, God willing.

When we pray, "deliver us from evil" it's not referring to the evil of others, but of ourselves.

I think it refers to the evil all around us as well as in ourselves.

 

[smaller]

I'm not fighting it, I don't have a problem with “eternal torment” for as long as I can see good biblical and moral reasons to justify believing there is such a thing. Right now I can, so let me begin to try and explain again what I see.

The presentation in the scriptures about Satan, devils and anti-Christ spirits are somewhat difficult and problematic matters for believers to come into understanding of, especially considering our own state in the flesh. Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, Romans 7:23, Romans 7:25, Romans 8:3, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 3:22, Gal. 5:17, 1 John 3:8 and many more all show us our own difficulties with spiritual disobedience in the flesh with these spiritual adversaries that are not us as believers.

So, these go to the LoF. I might consider that the LoF is a form of anti-heaven for anti-Christ spirits. Or maybe just a permanent parking garage for the spiritually dead. The nature of these things is hard for us to grasp. It's even harder when seeing that God made them. John 1:1-3, Col. 1:16-17, Heb. 1:3, Rev. 4:12.

It gets even more pitiful when we don't recognize just how many of the scriptures are addressed to "these parties" in man. IF Satan for example is moved by The Word, to resist/steal/kill The Word and is so in man, as Jesus advised us in Mark 4:15, we could see that every Word of God prompts them into adverse actions and does so in man. It gets even more pitiful when theologians don't factor this matter into their understandings, but that does also speak to the depths and reality of the problems of spiritual disobedience in the flesh. Yes, theologians and believers are partly blind. 1 Cor. 13:12.

God repeatedly warns in the New Testament of a greater condemnation for all who know the revelation of His will through Jesus Christ and hate the truth and seek to offend what they know is good. All who share in Satan’s knowledge of the truth along with his contempt for the truth and seek only pleasure satisfying their depraved desires and needs which they know will cause the greatest offence to God and creation shall justly receive the greater condemnation.

All sin and evil in the flesh is condemned, period. Romans 8:3. And yes, all these actions in thought, word and deed are linked to spiritual disobedience, that spiritual disobedience being of Satan and his minions. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2.

Revelation 14:9-11

and Revelation 20:10 together with Revelation 14:6 for example serve well to help explain this. That being said though, over the centuries many Christians were regularly taught like many are still being taught today: The endless torment described in chapters 14 and 20 of Revelation shows the kind of punishment that all of the condemned will be made to suffer.

I don't disagree.

It is well documented that Roman Catholic and Reformed teachers over many generations have often used these verses to uphold the doctrine of immortality and endless torment coming to all who are condemned. But look again and see what these verses actually do tell us…

If you think your position kinder for saying permanent death, then your position gets into setting "degrees" of evil, some worth of death only, other forms of evil/sin worthy of eternal punishment. That is the dead end that the orthodox landed in, venial, mortal, etc. The reason this is a dead end is because all sin is demonic and all devils are going to the LoF. Another reason it's a dead end is the position postures that people are not sinners unless they do the external act of sin. Jesus tells us this is not and can not be true, because evil comes from within. It's simply evil. And it grows/expresses itself first in thought, then to word, then to deed. Sin/evil is a 'cycle.' But no one escapes the fact of evil present within them and as such, sin is a perpetual reality of spiritual disobedience in the flesh. All are sinners, period. Not just when an external action is committed. Many believers get sucked into this false notion that repentance, contrition, forgiveness rituals make them sinless. It doesn't. Evil is still present with us all, regardless of such exercises.

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23, Matt. 5:28, Romans 7:21, Heb. 5:14, Heb. 10:22.

In Revelation 20:10 NKJV we are clearly told, "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever”. But please note, this verse tells us that only the devil, the beast and the false prophet are spoken of here. No one else is included in this verse.

If the orthodox got one thing right, it is that there is no specifically named person shown to be heading to the LoF, or that is currently in same. This is true. This is also part of why we are advised to pray for all men, to do good to all men, to seek peace with all men, to preach the Gospel to all men, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. John 5:23, John 13:35, Acts 17:30, Romans 12:17-18, 1 Cor. 9:22, 2 Cor. 9:13, Romans 13:8-10, Gal. 6:10, Eph. 3:9, 1 Thes. 3:12, 1 Tim. 2:1, James 1:5 and many many more likewise.
We are, in short, to HOPE for all men to the very end, until we are shown by God otherwise. Believers, because of spiritual disobedience in the flesh, get ahead of themselves in the "rush" to eternal adverse judgment. That Chair is reserved to God Alone, period. We have specific dictates to NOT get in that seat. We are not capable of making such judgments or final determinations for any person. And when we do, we are in direct violation of the scriptures above in the paragraph above this one, and are ourselves captured by spiritual disobedience in the flesh, showing slaveship to that working therein.

So yes, I can see God warning us of a punishment of endless torment in these verses, but certainly not for every condemned soul. (annihilationists will argue that aiōnas tōn aiōnōn doesn't mean forever but I think we shall just have to wait and see) The key to living forever is knowing God

The LoF is eternal, not ages of ages. Nothing and no one going into the LoF is coming out. That much is certain. But as to your speculation about people, that is technically off limits. None of us really know "the heart" of another human being, to be able to make those kinds of determinations. We are not God, as much as some like to think they are. The eternal adverse judgment seat is, in a way, a spiritual TRAP for our own wickedness, which same seeks to hide itself from adverse judgments, to justify and exonerate itself and to look upon others adversely rather than our own sorry hides. It's very very effective.

but how we react to that knowledge in this life will largely determine our state in eternity.

We are not saved by knowledge if this is what you are proposing. Understanding the construct of the Trinity properly saves nobody. We are not going to be standing before God with crib notes on the Trinity in hand, telling Him how He Is. That would be the height of arrogance.

In our own judgment, we will stand there with our mouths shut. Romans 3:19, guilty as rightfully charged.

The wages of sin is death as revealed in Genesis chapters 2, 3 and 5 and elsewhere in the Bible, but the wages for the vilest form of evil can be seen revealed in Scripture as being a punishment of endless torment.

There is no question to me that the LoF is a real matter, and an eternal one. If we see spiritual disobedient "beings" or "entities" for what they are, as 'the dead,' the 'dead' are headed there. Dead doesn't always mean "without activity." Matt. 8:22. I view Satan and his messengers as 'dead spirits.' The opposites and opposers of The Spirit of Life.

I will explain more of the good reasons I see to justify believing there is such a thing as endless torment for those most evil of the condemned later, God willing.

I think you're wasting your time if you're trying to make a case for annihilation. It doesn't make your position any better or any different. The 'dead' are 'dead.' That doesn't mean 'dead' without perceptions.

I think it refers to the evil all around us as well as in ourselves.

You are correct in that. If there is any "good instrument" that eternal damnation brings us, personally, it is to apply those dictates unto whom they are due, between our own two ears. 2 Cor. 12:7. I have found this practical when dealing with temptations, because I know they are not from "just me." Romans 7:17 & 20, Gal. 3:13-14, Gal. 5:17, 1 John 3:8

 

[freewill]

The presentation in the scriptures about Satan, devils and anti-Christ spirits are somewhat difficult and problematic matters for believers to come into understanding of, especially considering our own state in the flesh. Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, Romans 7:23, Romans 7:25, Romans 8:3, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 3:22, Gal. 5:17, 1 John 3:8 and many more all show us our own difficulties with spiritual disobedience in the flesh with these spiritual adversaries that are not us as believers.

So, these go to the LoF. I might consider that the LoF is a form of anti-heaven for anti-Christ spirits. Or maybe just a permanent parking garage for the spiritually dead. The nature of these things is hard for us to grasp. It's even harder when seeing that God made them. John 1:1-3, Col. 1:16-17, Heb. 1:3, Rev. 4:12.

It gets even more pitiful when we don't recognize just how many of the scriptures are addressed to "these parties" in man. IF Satan for example is moved by The Word, to resist/steal/kill The Word and is so in man, as Jesus advised us in Mark 4:15, we could see that every Word of God prompts them into adverse actions and does so in man. It gets even more pitiful when theologians don't factor this matter into their understandings, but that does also speak to the depths and reality of the problems of spiritual disobedience in the flesh. Yes, theologians and believers are partly blind. 1 Cor. 13:12.

All sin and evil in the flesh is condemned, period. Romans 8:3. And yes, all these actions in thought, word and deed are linked to spiritual disobedience, that spiritual disobedience being of Satan and his minions. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2.
I don't disagree.


If you think your position kinder for saying permanent death, then your position gets into setting "degrees" of evil, some worth of death only, other forms of evil/sin worthy of eternal punishment. That is the dead end that the orthodox landed in, venial, mortal, etc. The reason this is a dead end is because all sin is demonic and all devils are going to the LoF. Another reason it's a dead end is the position postures that people are not sinners unless they do the external act of sin. Jesus tells us this is not and can not be true, because evil comes from within. It's simply evil. And it grows/expresses itself first in thought, then to word, then to deed. Sin/evil is a 'cycle.' But no one escapes the fact of evil present within them and as such, sin is a perpetual reality of spiritual disobedience in the flesh. All are sinners, period. Not just when an external action is committed. Many believers get sucked into this false notion that repentance, contrition, forgiveness rituals make them sinless. It doesn't. Evil is still present with us all, regardless of such exercises.

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23, Matt. 5:28, Romans 7:21, Heb. 5:14, Heb. 10:22.

If the orthodox got one thing right, it is that there is no specifically named person shown to be heading to the LoF, or that is currently in same. This is true. This is also part of why we are advised to pray for all men, to do good to all men, to seek peace with all men, to preach the Gospel to all men, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. John 5:23, John 13:35, Acts 17:30, Romans 12:17-18, 1 Cor. 9:22, 2 Cor. 9:13, Romans 13:8-10, Gal. 6:10, Eph. 3:9, 1 Thes. 3:12, 1 Tim. 2:1, James 1:5 and many many more likewise.
We are, in short, to HOPE for all men to the very end, until we are shown by God otherwise. Believers, because of spiritual disobedience in the flesh, get ahead of themselves in the "rush" to eternal adverse judgment. That Chair is reserved to God Alone, period. We have specific dictates to NOT get in that seat. We are not capable of making such judgments or final determinations for any person. And when we do, we are in direct violation of the scriptures above in the paragraph above this one, and are ourselves captured by spiritual disobedience in the flesh, showing slaveship to that working therein.


The LoF is eternal, not ages of ages. Nothing and no one going into the LoF is coming out. That much is certain. But as to your speculation about people, that is technically off limits. None of us really know "the heart" of another human being, to be able to make those kinds of determinations. We are not God, as much as some like to think they are. The eternal adverse judgment seat is, in a way, a spiritual TRAP for our own wickedness, which same seeks to hide itself from adverse judgments, to justify and exonerate itself and to look upon others adversely rather than our own sorry hides. It's very very effective.



We are not saved by knowledge if this is what you are proposing. Understanding the construct of the Trinity properly saves nobody. We are not going to be standing before God with crib notes on the Trinity in hand, telling Him how He Is. That would be the height of arrogance.

In our own judgment, we will stand there with our mouths shut. Romans 3:19, guilty as rightfully charged.


There is no question to me that the LoF is a real matter, and an eternal one. If we see spiritual disobedient "beings" or "entities" for what they are, as 'the dead,' the 'dead' are headed there. Dead doesn't always mean "without activity." Matt. 8:22. I view Satan and his messengers as 'dead spirits.' The opposites and opposers of The Spirit of Life.


I think you're wasting your time if you're trying to make a case for annihilation. It doesn't make your position any better or any different. The 'dead' are 'dead.' That doesn't mean 'dead' without perceptions.


You are correct in that. If there is any "good instrument" that eternal damnation brings us, personally, it is to apply those dictates unto whom they are due, between our own two ears. 2 Cor. 12:7. I have found this practical when dealing with temptations, because I know they are not from "just me." Romans 7:17 & 20, Gal. 3:13-14, Gal. 5:17, 1 John 3:8

I am Sorry smaller but you seem to enjoy ignoring important points that have been made, not just here but in other discussions also, going off at confusing tangents and to me you sound like you enjoy waffling.
Having a discussion with you is like having a discussion with runny jelly and I honestly don't see therefore how I can hope to reason with you. Pardon me then if I ignore your posts in the future.

It should also be noted that in Luke 12:48 ESV, it is worded: “But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating.” That being said, to describe living forever in an inferno of constant torment as a light beating would be grossly inaccurate and absurd...

I must however add that I have seen other Christians on a number of occasions arguing that servants or stewards in a similar situation to the ones spoken of in Luke 12:48 who do not know God’s will, shall somehow all be converted and saved. What these Christians keep overlooking though is that the judgement will not be a time for correction and conversion but it will be a time for judgement. The time for conversion is now, and when Jesus Christ returns it will be for the judgement: Luke 12:42-48 serves well to explain what will happen when the Lord Jesus returns as Supreme Judge. “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows”.

Those servants who do not know the will of God and are found offending the will of God at the time of coming face to face with God on the day of judgement, will not be given a saving knowledge and faith in the self-sacrificing love revealed through the life and death of the Lord Jesus by facing His wrath and beatings. Luke 12:48 therefore can be seen as a picture of a lesser condemnation of a finite suffering that will lead to an everlasting punishment of an everlasting literal “death” (annihilation) for the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment.

 

[OzSpen]

We are free to believe what we want to believe and by what we want we shall be judged. As for me, I believe that by using Scripture and reason I can show there is no good reason to believe the God of Scripture is a twisted sadistic monster which many including some here, would want us to believe in and worship…

You have used an appeal to ridicule fallacy here. When you use this fallacious reasoning, we cannot engage in a logical discussion because of your illogic.

I appeal to you to deal with the issues relating to the topic instead of engaging in name-calling associated with the ridicule fallacy.

Oz

 

[smaller]

I am Sorry smaller but you seem to enjoy ignoring important points that have been made, not just here but in other discussions also, going off at confusing tangents and to me you sound like you enjoy waffling.

It's called point/counter point in dialog. How do you or I know the validity of any scriptural standing without this process? I was very pointed in my observations to your position. If you pick up the critique and address those counters your serve may improve or it'll change. But to think that any claim isn't subject to scrutiny is a one way street of our own devices.

Having a discussion with you is like having a discussion with runny jelly and I honestly don't see therefore how I can hope to reason with you. Pardon me then if I ignore your posts in the future.

If you want to say that you don't understand, I understand. But to make the kind of above claims/charges without specific counter points is not polite at all.

A lot of people have pet positions that don't stand up to scrutiny. Yours happens to be that you think God better for eternal annihilation in most cases rather than eternal torment. MY COUNTER (making it large so the point is made) is that Satan and his messengers are all going to the infamous LoF and it's not eternal annihilation. So, that's the counter. It doesn't make your position any better just because you might take some devils and place them in eternal annihilation.

I must however add that I have seen other Christians on a number of occasions arguing that servants or stewards in a similar situation to the ones spoken of in Luke 12:48 who do not know God’s will, shall somehow all be converted and saved.

Luke 12:48 isn't showing servants being eternally annihilated if that's what you're claiming.

What these Christians keep overlooking though is that the judgement will not be a time for correction and conversion but it will be a time for judgement. The time for conversion is now, and when Jesus Christ returns it will be for the judgement: Luke 12:42-48 serves well to explain what will happen when the Lord Jesus returns as Supreme Judge. “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows”.

Those servants who do not know the will of God and are found offending the will of God at the time of coming face to face with God on the day of judgement, will not be given a saving knowledge and faith in the self-sacrificing love revealed through the life and death of the Lord Jesus by facing His wrath and beatings.

Let's take the most obvious point, your weakest actually, and examine in it, which is the claim that such servants aren't saved or won't be saved. A point you even bolded, made red and underlined:

He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers

The first thing I might ask myself is this: How can any person be alive if they are cut to pieces? The second I might ask is this: Where is "the place" of unbelievers? And of course I've asked myself the same questions when I've examined that particular text and it's correlatives from the other Gospels, such as:

Matthew 24:51
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The very first thing I'd observe is that after such cutting to pieces, dividing asunder, there is still activity: Weeping and gnashing of teeth. So, no. No eternal annihilation there that I can see. And yes, these two accounts are the same account. That's why a lot of Gospel accounts have to be placed side by side, because they enhance particulars in understandings.

The very FIRST thing we should understand about both presentations is that they are parables. Rather than approaching understandings of parables willy nilly, they should be dissected with specific methodology that is provided in the scriptures to do so. Do you have any examples of scriptural methodology that you employ to understand parables? Or do you just do it on the fly and insert whatever you happen to think for any particular parable?

Luke 12:48 therefore can be seen as a picture of a lesser condemnation of a finite suffering that will lead to an everlasting punishment of an everlasting literal “death” (annihilation) for the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment.

How you managed to make that sight is really not there to be had. And that was my point from the start. Your position landed on "eternal death", but that claim is exactly nowhere in sight in either of the Luke or Matt. accounts. Sorry you didn't pick up on the finer details of the critique's which I addressed prior.

What I might ask you to start with is this: Do you believe Satan and his messengers ALL land in the LoF? I believe they do. And, if this is so, why do you have a problem with that place being "eternal torment" for them? Once you determine this portion, THEN if you want to extend that sight to people, which I personally can't justify in the scriptures because it's not specified by examples (other than in modern paraphrased texts where there's alterations forcing it so) then your answer for people should rightfully be the same as for Satan and his messengers. Not eternal death, but eternal torture.

 

[Chopper]

The presentation in the scriptures about Satan, devils and anti-Christ spirits are somewhat difficult and problematic matters for believers to come into understanding of, especially considering our own state in the flesh. Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, Romans 7:23, Romans 7:25, Romans 8:3, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 3:22, Gal. 5:17, 1 John 3:8 and many more all show us our own difficulties with spiritual disobedience in the flesh with these spiritual adversaries that are not us as believers.

So, these go to the LoF. I might consider that the LoF is a form of anti-heaven for anti-Christ spirits. Or maybe just a permanent parking garage for the spiritually dead. The nature of these things is hard for us to grasp. It's even harder when seeing that God made them. John 1:1-3, Col. 1:16-17, Heb. 1:3, Rev. 4:12.

It gets even more pitiful when we don't recognize just how many of the scriptures are addressed to "these parties" in man. IF Satan for example is moved by The Word, to resist/steal/kill The Word and is so in man, as Jesus advised us in Mark 4:15, we could see that every Word of God prompts them into adverse actions and does so in man. It gets even more pitiful when theologians don't factor this matter into their understandings, but that does also speak to the depths and reality of the problems of spiritual disobedience in the flesh. Yes, theologians and believers are partly blind. 1 Cor. 13:12.

All sin and evil in the flesh is condemned, period. Romans 8:3. And yes, all these actions in thought, word and deed are linked to spiritual disobedience, that spiritual disobedience being of Satan and his minions. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2.
I don't disagree.


If you think your position kinder for saying permanent death, then your position gets into setting "degrees" of evil, some worth of death only, other forms of evil/sin worthy of eternal punishment. That is the dead end that the orthodox landed in, venial, mortal, etc. The reason this is a dead end is because all sin is demonic and all devils are going to the LoF. Another reason it's a dead end is the position postures that people are not sinners unless they do the external act of sin. Jesus tells us this is not and can not be true, because evil comes from within. It's simply evil. And it grows/expresses itself first in thought, then to word, then to deed. Sin/evil is a 'cycle.' But no one escapes the fact of evil present within them and as such, sin is a perpetual reality of spiritual disobedience in the flesh. All are sinners, period. Not just when an external action is committed. Many believers get sucked into this false notion that repentance, contrition, forgiveness rituals make them sinless. It doesn't. Evil is still present with us all, regardless of such exercises.

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23, Matt. 5:28, Romans 7:21, Heb. 5:14, Heb. 10:22.

If the orthodox got one thing right, it is that there is no specifically named person shown to be heading to the LoF, or that is currently in same. This is true. This is also part of why we are advised to pray for all men, to do good to all men, to seek peace with all men, to preach the Gospel to all men, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. John 5:23, John 13:35, Acts 17:30, Romans 12:17-18, 1 Cor. 9:22, 2 Cor. 9:13, Romans 13:8-10, Gal. 6:10, Eph. 3:9, 1 Thes. 3:12, 1 Tim. 2:1, James 1:5 and many many more likewise.
We are, in short, to HOPE for all men to the very end, until we are shown by God otherwise. Believers, because of spiritual disobedience in the flesh, get ahead of themselves in the "rush" to eternal adverse judgment. That Chair is reserved to God Alone, period. We have specific dictates to NOT get in that seat. We are not capable of making such judgments or final determinations for any person. And when we do, we are in direct violation of the scriptures above in the paragraph above this one, and are ourselves captured by spiritual disobedience in the flesh, showing slaveship to that working therein.


The LoF is eternal, not ages of ages. Nothing and no one going into the LoF is coming out. That much is certain. But as to your speculation about people, that is technically off limits. None of us really know "the heart" of another human being, to be able to make those kinds of determinations. We are not God, as much as some like to think they are. The eternal adverse judgment seat is, in a way, a spiritual TRAP for our own wickedness, which same seeks to hide itself from adverse judgments, to justify and exonerate itself and to look upon others adversely rather than our own sorry hides. It's very very effective.



We are not saved by knowledge if this is what you are proposing. Understanding the construct of the Trinity properly saves nobody. We are not going to be standing before God with crib notes on the Trinity in hand, telling Him how He Is. That would be the height of arrogance.

In our own judgment, we will stand there with our mouths shut. Romans 3:19, guilty as rightfully charged.


There is no question to me that the LoF is a real matter, and an eternal one. If we see spiritual disobedient "beings" or "entities" for what they are, as 'the dead,' the 'dead' are headed there. Dead doesn't always mean "without activity." Matt. 8:22. I view Satan and his messengers as 'dead spirits.' The opposites and opposers of The Spirit of Life.


I think you're wasting your time if you're trying to make a case for annihilation. It doesn't make your position any better or any different. The 'dead' are 'dead.' That doesn't mean 'dead' without perceptions.


You are correct in that. If there is any "good instrument" that eternal damnation brings us, personally, it is to apply those dictates unto whom they are due, between our own two ears. 2 Cor. 12:7. I have found this practical when dealing with temptations, because I know they are not from "just me." Romans 7:17 & 20, Gal. 3:13-14, Gal. 5:17, 1 John 3:8

Very good answers, favored Theologian smaller. I just had to chuckle, a "Chopper chuckle" at this remark of yours....

I've learned to see that evil in us is meant to bring us to Gods Mercy in Christ. Which Mercy I happen to be exceptionally fond of.

Thank you for that.

 

[smaller]

Very good answers, favored Theologian smaller. I just had to chuckle, a "Chopper chuckle" at this remark of yours....
Thank you for that.

I sense that you are growing to appreciate what scriptures have taught me about "self deprecation." :drool Gal. 6:3

Yes, I'd LOVE to 'trade in' all of my own self righteousness in exchange for only His. Which I believe is the general quest of all of us, is it not? I found out I had 'nuthin.' Absolutely nuthin. And it is quite an enjoyable seat I might add. Quite the opposite place many seek. There are plenty of chairs there too!

 

[Chopper]

I sense that you are growing to appreciate what scriptures have taught me about "self deprecation." :drool Gal. 6:3

Yes, I'd LOVE to 'trade in' all of my own self righteousness in exchange for only His. Which I believe is the general quest of all of us, is it not? I found out I had 'nuthin.' Absolutely nuthin. And it is quite an enjoyable seat I might add. Quite the opposite place many seek. There are plenty of chairs there too!

O my friend, you are wonderfully correct. Personal pride in how & what I have to say to another, has always grieved the Holy Spirit of God. Having said that, I'll just occupy the seat next to yours that has my name on it, "Dirt Bag".

 

[smaller]

O my friend, you are wonderfully correct. Personal pride in how & what I have to say to another, has always grieved the Holy Spirit of God. Having said that, I'll just occupy the seat next to yours that has my name on it, "Dirt Bag".

Now Chopper, you know full well I would NEVER measure that to you. It is by our mutual sittings in the truthful chairs, that I am able to see you in HIS LIGHT of LOVE. If I need any judgments, I know where to look. In the meantime, I have the delight of measuring eternal LIFE amongst the brethren, as I know I have measured to me from Christ.

Call it an amplification if you will. The more we see ourselves in the direction of eternal life, the more that FIRE takes hold of us and it multiplies.

Do you know how pleasant it is to not have to live with that eternal damnation sledge hammer hanging by the infamous hair of Damocles above our heads? I know where it will fall. Upon that which is in my own sorry hide, and am THANKFUL that it is. Hard to understand, ain't it?

I've tried to treat this sight to others, but allow me the pleasure again, just for you.

Let's look at Paul, tough as it may be, here:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Do we see "just Paul?" Nope.

Now, let's trot Paul over to Jesus' Words here. The very Words that most believers shudder in horrors over hearing:

Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. .

Luke 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

The very FIRST thing that should occur to us is this: We all are sinners. Therefore we ALL work iniquity. Is that not completely reasonable sight? I think it's quite truthful.

Now, look at Paul. Did Paul, working through the Holy Ghost, heal the sick? check Cast out devils? check. Work miracles? check.

Do you think Paul would not stand before God in Christ and accept those words of Jesus that appear to "us" to be DIRE?

Yes, Paul would have stood there, HEARD IT, and accepted those Words unto WHOM THEY ARE FOR.

I hope that from time to time, some may hear Every Word of God, and find LIFE therein, even in the bad Words that we FEAR to hear. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

Treat of the day, if for no one else, me.

 

[Chopper]

Over the years of attending "Pastor's Conferences" and fellowship meetings, the one thing that stuck in my mind was the pride and arrogance of many of the Pastor's. Some would strut around boasting of their new converts. Others would boast about the number of baptisms. Not that that is terribly sinful in and of itself, but their fault was, there wasn't any credit given to Christ Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

Because I didn't join in on that kind of parade, I wasn't considered in their "hall of fame". The Lord Jesus was so kind to me in the work that He called me to, He and His Spirit was always a step before me setting up the next sinner for me to speak to for Salvation. All praise to Jesus, the greatest Evangelist the world has ever known.

Like the Mark said....Mark 16:20 "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

Like Chopper said....Chopper 16:20 "And Chopper went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with him, and confirming the Word with many saved and baptized.

 

[smaller]

Over the years of attending "Pastor's Conferences" and fellowship meetings, the one thing that stuck in my mind was the pride and arrogance of many of the Pastor's. Some would strut around boasting of their new converts. Others would boast about the number of baptisms. Not that that is terribly sinful in and of itself, but their fault was, there wasn't any credit given to Christ Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

Because I didn't join in on that kind of parade, I wasn't considered in their "hall of fame". The Lord Jesus was so kind to me in the work that He called me to, He and His Spirit was always a step before me setting up the next sinner for me to speak to for Salvation. All praise to Jesus, the greatest Evangelist the world has ever known.

Like the Mark said....Mark 16:20 "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

Like Chopper said....Chopper 16:20 "And Chopper went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with him, and confirming the Word with many saved and baptized.

How many people would refuse the Gospel, if we simply advised them that Jesus Loves them? This is not a difficult Gospel to share! It is in fact a complete delight!

I have yet to find ONE PERSON who disagrees. How else are we to plant? By threat? By force? By sectarianism?

No. No person in their right mind refuses the Love of God, period. I don't even provide that as an option when I witness to anyone.

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

 

[Jim Parker]

I believe that by using Scripture and reason I can show there is no good reason to believe the God of Scripture is a twisted sadistic monster which many including some here, would want us to believe in and worship…

What do you mean by, "a twisted sadistic monster."

It is also now widely taught and believed that according to atheistic or secular science, the universe itself started over 13 billion years ago, and that it was also formed through a purely natural process without any need to include a creator God in the equation.

Science is the study of creation, not of the creator. Science is the discipline of examining God's creation to understand how it works , essentially, by taking measurements of the part of creation that is being examined.
Science is not the study of God because God cannot be measured, examined, tested by experimentation, etc.
Science does not comment on what God does because it has no means of examining what God does.
That the universe began about 13 billion years ago has been determined by taking measurements and repeating them to make sure a mistake wasn't made. The cause of the "big bang" is not known to scientists because they have not been able to figure out how it happened.
But, "How God did that" is beyond the ability of science to discover.
There are scientists who are atheists and scientists who are devout Christians but, science, itself, is no more atheist nor religious than a tape measure or a scale.

Anyone born to live and die that way and then face the judgement cannot be justly held responsible for offending what they never understood or believed existed.

Consider: Rom 1:20-21 (RSV) Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened.
Consider: Rom 2:12 (RSV)All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
Consider: Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Neither then can it mean “everlasting torment”.

Jesus said those who are sent to hell, which was made for the devil and his angels, not for man, (Mat 25:41) will experience everlasting punishment. (Mat 25:46)

I don't think you have any need to fear that end since you are in pursuit of holiness, but, that is what Jesus said and that is what the words mean: unending punishment. And Jesus didn't take a vote to see if we all liked it.

Here's one man's description of hell: "This is hell: the negation of love; the return of hate for love; bitterness at seeing innocent joy; to be surrounded by love and to have hate in one's heart. This is the eternal condition of all the damned. They are all dearly loved. They are all invited to the joyous banquet. They are all living in God's Kingdom, in the New Earth and the New Heavens. No one expels them. Even if they wanted to go away they could not flee from God's New Creation, nor hide from God's tenderly loving omnipresence. Their only alternative would be, perhaps, to go away from their brothers and search for a bitter isolation from them, but they could never depart from God and His love. And what is more terrible is that in this eternal life, in this New Creation, God is everything to His creatures. As Saint Gregory of Nyssa says, 'In the present life the things we have relations with are numerous, for instance: time, air, locality, food and drink, clothing, sunlight, lamplight, and other necessities of life, none of which, many though they be, are God; that blessed state which we hope for is in need of none of these things, but the Divine Being will become all, and in the stead of all to us, distributing Himself proportionately to every need of that existence. It is plain, too, from the Holy Scriptures that God becomes to those who deserve it, locality and home and clothing and food and drink and light and riches and kingdom, and everything that can be thought of and named that goes to make our life happy.' ("On the Soul and the Resurrection").
"In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!"
From: "THE RIVER OF FIRE" by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS


iakov the fool


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