Matthew 5:17-19 and the law

[guibox]

If we are supposed to still keep the Sabbath, then why didn't Paul tell us which day it was, Guibox? Why didn't he tell us which laws to keep? :o But he didn't. Instead he told us;

Romans 14:5, "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers everyday alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." Now the Sabbath law is a commandment. So why didn't Paul care if we broke it? Maybe he forgot. Or maybe he was just too tired to tell us.

First of all, we see that Paul met on the Sabbath just like Christ "as was his custom" and we see that he spoke to ONLY Gentiles on the Sabbath as well. No where is it mentioned that there was church on Sunday for the Gentiles and that on Sabbath for the Jews. We see Paul preaching by the river as well on Sabbath.

In other words, the observance of the Sabbath was already a given. Do you really think Paul had to reinvent or reiterate what Christ's followers believed like some sort of 4th century church council?? When did Paul become the final authority of what the church should and shouldn't believe?

Second, Romans 14 has already been addressed by myself (specifically toward you which you ignored, like always) and is not talking about Sabbath, Pentacost, Passover or any other important day but about pagan observances of feast days.

Here are some more passages that you contradict:
Romans 3:20, "Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in his sight by by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

Romans 6:14, "For sin shall not be your master because you are not under law, but under grace."

Galatians 2:16, "know that a man is not justified by observing the law but through faith in Jesus Christ."

Galatians 2:21"...for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing."

No contradiction here because nowhere in the OT or the NT is keeping the law ever been endorsed to save us or make us righteous. Obedience is not legalism and keeping the law out of love is not trying to earn righteousness. This is the dead horse you and others continue to unnecessarily flog here on this forum.

Romans 10:4, Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. "

Christ is the fulfillment of the OT laws that pointed towards Him and Christ came to reveal the law through Him, yes. However, that doesn't negate the standard (whether on tables of stone or in our hearts) that convict us of sin, keep us on the straight and narrow and show our love for Christ's saving merits in our lives. The appropriate term in this verse is not 'end' but technically 'goal'. Your problem is that the ten commandments seeked to exist when Christ came. It did not as Christ promised it wouldn't and yet you still do keep the law as Aloha is smartly pointing out to you.

You speak in redundancies, Heidi.

Galatians 3:2, "Did you receive the Spirit be observing the law or by believing what you heard?"

galatians 3:10, "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written:'Cursed is everything written in the Book of the Law."

Yes. By observing the law without Christ, we are condemned because the law cannot save us. The law points out our sin and...where do we go? If Christ were not there, we would perish. This is what it means to be 'under the law', Heidi. We are 'under' the condemnation of the law thanks to Christ. Paul reiterates it "Do we then make void the law through faith? Nay we establish the law!" "There is now therefore no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus."

The law doesn't save us, but it is still there in our sanctifying walk.

Therefore, you are stuck quibbling about which day of the week you should observe because you have not accepted Christ's sacrifice for your disobedience of the law and still have to try to obey it like the Jews still do. But my interpretations contradict no scripture. Nothing. We are saved by grace, not by observing the law. And that grace breeds love which is the fulfillment of the law. I'm sorry you don't understand that. But since you don't, then explaining it to you won't make any difference.

And the love that is 'breeded'...how is it shown, Heidi? Does grace work in a vacuum? Are some hippies preaching the 'love' mantra without any concrete standards? Do we 'make void the law through faith'?

Our love will show by our actions.

You will not kill, steal, worship false Gods or commit adultery. Why? Because this IS love. The 10 commandments are the summary of love, nay, they are love shown concretely. God's law of love is the nature of His character. It can no more be abolished or done away with in the 'name of love' for love is what it is.

Again, you will be the first to admit that Christ MAGNIFIED the law by making it even MORE spiritual. The only problem you have that must be completely done away with or completely changed is the Sabbath because you do not understand the nature of God's moral law, or the necessity of the Sabbath that God created from the foundation of the earth.

Your Pauline worship is making you quibble on semantics and redundancies instead of looking at the scope of the Sabbath throughout history from it's beginnings to its future realization in the Messianic kingdom of the new earth.

It's called tunnel vision.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi,

I'm afraid I still don't quite understand your viewpoint. On one hand, you say God's love leads us to obey the Ten Commandments, but on the other hand, you say that we are not to obey one of the Ten Commandments. You say that we are no longer under the law, but at the same time say that love leads us to obey the law. Why do you say that love leads us to obey the law, but when guibox obeys the law, you say that that's not led by his love of the Lord? I'm afraid I'm unclear on exactly where you stand. Should we, out of love, obey the Ten Commandments? And if love does lead us to obey the Ten Commandments, does that not include the Sabbath observance?

As I've said many, many times here, we become righteous only by the forgivness that God gives us on the cross through Christ's death. Once we receive that love and forgiveness, it spills out onto our neighbor which automatically enables us to obey the commandments. We no longer have to sacrifice animals or eat certaing foods, do zero work on the Sabbth, etc. to make us holy enough to atone for our sins. "It is finished." We are holy purely because of the sacrifice of the unblemished lamb which is Jesus Christ. Then, out of love, and thankfulness do any good deeds come. "For out of the overfolw of the heart, the mouth speaks."

Therefore, obeying the law since Christ died, takes about as much effort as thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire. There is no effort, only a response from the heart. This isn't a "should" or an "ought to", in order to get God's love, but the opposite. We are now giving love back to God for saving us. And that is why God's love is unconditional. No strings attached. But those who say we can lose our salvation unless we do what God wants, are saying that God's love is conditional, that it actually does depend on our own effort which the bible says is untrue. In addition, if there are strings attached to God's love, then how can we give him the credit for it? :o And that's why it's imperative to know that Christ's death saves us, not our wonderful selves.

Therefore, as Paul says, we are no longer under law but under grace. We can then honor one day if we like, 2 or 3, or everyday, it doesn't matter, because the Sabbath is no longer a day of the week. It's up to us, depending on how each man wants to show his love for God. I hope that helps.

 

[Heidi]

I also want to build on the analogy of being rescued from a burning fire. Would you want to harm, steal from, commit adultery against, lie to, someone who rescued you from a burning fire? Would you consult a rule book on how to show your thankfulness? Or would your love from your heart spill over onto him? This is what Christ's death on the cross breeds in his believers and is precisely why that thankfulness automatically obeys the commandments. And if you do ever become angry at your neighbor, all you have to do is confess your sin and God is faithful and just to forgive them.

And that is how love is the fulfillment of the law, not endless sacrifices and rituals which as Paul said do not work because they have to keep being repeated. Only God's love that he gives us from the Holy Spirit changes our hearts so they are filled with love instead of the desires of the flesh.

 

[guibox]

I also want to build on the analogy of being rescued from a burning fire. Would you want to harm, steal from, commit adultery against, lie to, someone who rescued you from a burning fire? Would you consult a rule book on how to show your thankfulness? Or would your love from your heart spill over onto him? This is what Christ's death on the cross breeds in his believers and is precisely why that thankfulness automatically obeys the commandments. And if you do ever become angry at your neighbor, all you have to do is confess your sin and God is faithful and just to forgive them.

And that is how love is the fulfillment of the law, not endless sacrifices and rituals which as Paul said do not work because they have to keep being repeated. Only God's love that he gives us from the Holy Spirit changes our hearts so they are filled with love instead of the desires of the flesh.

Okay so let me get this straight...

You DO follow the law out of love?

Either you are contradicting yourself or your arguments were nothing more then semantics.

Ah, but there is that Sabbath issue that falls under the exact same category that you have put forth and yet is ignored. Let me rephrase what you were saying.

"Would you want to take His name in vain, worship other gods, bow down to images or profane God's holy Sabbath who rescued you from the eternal, burning fire? Would you consult a rule book on how to show your thankfulness?"

Case closed, Heidi. The first 4 are our duty to God, the six that you put so eloquently (of which we were saying the exact same thing) are our duty to man. We will not do those things because of love and thankfulness.

HOW DOES THIS CHANGE WITH ALL OF THE FIRST 4 COMMANDMENTS INCLUDING THE SABBATH???

There is a reason why the Sabbath was included in the moral law and NOT the burdensom rituals of sacrifice and symbolism. Everything you just said ALSO applies to the Sabbath. It is all part of the same package, Heidi.

Do you not see your contradicting words here?? Even Aloha (who I think doesn't agree with the Sabbath) is pointing out your redundant thinking.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sorry Sputnik, I've had a lot of things on my mind today and am very much on edge. I apologize for blowing up at you.

Think nothing of it, my friend. We all have our days. :smt014

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I believe that Christ fulfilled the whole law - he fullfilled all righteousness. Why? Because we were unable to do it. And because he has done it - and I am IN CHRIST his righteous fulfillment imputes into me. That then makes me righteous - just for being in Christ. When God looks upon me, instead of seeing my pitiful attempt at keeping the law and my pitiful works of righteousness he sees the perfection of Jesus Christ.

It's no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me. Christ's works are enough for my salvation - I don't need to add anything more to it. I trust in his righteousness

 

[Heidi]

I believe that Christ fulfilled the whole law - he fullfilled all righteousness. Why? Because we were unable to do it. And because he has done it - and I am IN CHRIST his righteous fulfillment imputes into me. That then makes me righteous - just for being in Christ. When God looks upon me, instead of seeing my pitiful attempt at keeping the law and my pitiful works of righteousness he sees the perfection of Jesus Christ.

It's no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me. Christ's works are enough for my salvation - I don't need to add anything more to it. I trust in his righteousness

Amen! :D

 

[Aloha Joe]

Heidi,

I'm afraid I still don't quite understand your viewpoint. On one hand, you say God's love leads us to obey the Ten Commandments, but on the other hand, you say that we are not to obey one of the Ten Commandments. You say that we are no longer under the law, but at the same time say that love leads us to obey the law. Why do you say that love leads us to obey the law, but when guibox obeys the law, you say that that's not led by his love of the Lord? I'm afraid I'm unclear on exactly where you stand. Should we, out of love, obey the Ten Commandments? And if love does lead us to obey the Ten Commandments, does that not include the Sabbath observance?

As I've said many, many times here, we become righteous only by the forgivness that God gives us on the cross through Christ's death. Once we receive that love and forgiveness, it spills out onto our neighbor which automatically enables us to obey the commandments. We no longer have to sacrifice animals or eat certaing foods, do zero work on the Sabbth, etc. to make us holy enough to atone for our sins. "It is finished." We are holy purely because of the sacrifice of the unblemished lamb which is Jesus Christ. Then, out of love, and thankfulness do any good deeds come. "For out of the overfolw of the heart, the mouth speaks."

Therefore, obeying the law since Christ died, takes about as much effort as thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire. There is no effort, only a response from the heart. This isn't a "should" or an "ought to", in order to get God's love, but the opposite. We are now giving love back to God for saving us. And that is why God's love is unconditional. No strings attached. But those who say we can lose our salvation unless we do what God wants, are saying that God's love is conditional, that it actually does depend on our own effort which the bible says is untrue. In addition, if there are strings attached to God's love, then how can we give him the credit for it? :o And that's why it's imperative to know that Christ's death saves us, not our wonderful selves.

Therefore, as Paul says, we are no longer under law but under grace. We can then honor one day if we like, 2 or 3, or everyday, it doesn't matter, because the Sabbath is no longer a day of the week. It's up to us, depending on how each man wants to show his love for God. I hope that helps.

But guibox never said that observing the Sabbath is done to win God's favor, or to earn righteousness. He's confessed that that comes through grace. He says that his obedience of the Sabbath commandment is motivated by the same thing that motivates his obedience to every other commandment: his grateful love of the Lord for His saving grace. I'm not speaking of what we have to do to earn God's favor, as that comes from grace alone. I'm asking about an apparent inconstency in your points. You say that we are no longer to obey the Sabbath commandment. We agree on this. But then you say that love leads us to obey the Ten Commandments, of which the Sabbath commandment is one. How is it that you say that love does not lead us to obey the Sabbath commandment, and yet say that love leads us to obey the Ten Commandments, if the Sabbath commandment is on of them? Does grateful love lead us to obey the Ten Commandments, or not? If yes, then is not the Sabbath commandment one of them? And if we are not to obey the Sabbath commandment (I'm not speaking out of a desire to win God's approval, but out of grateful love for His grace), then aren't we not then obeying the Ten Commandments, as you said love would lead us to do?

 

[Heidi]

The difference is, Aloha, that Guibox still sees the Sabbath as a day of the week like the Jews still do and not as Hebrews 4:1-9,"Entering God's rest."

If you read the OT and see the Phrase "Entering God's rest" it always refers to the messiah.

In addition, since Christ died, the bible never refers to the Sabbath as a day of the week. Never, never, never, but instead, as coming to Christ for rest. And that is why Paul said that it's okay for ome man honors one day as special or everyday as special because those are not the Sabbath or he would have said to honor the seventh day.

But he didn't because Hebrews tells us that the seventh day is Jesus Christ our Lord. But Guibox doesn't understand this and that is where we disagree. And Guibox has blasted me for agreeing with the bible, which I'm getting tired of. It isn't my fault that after Christ died, the bible never refers to the Sabbath as a day of the week, yet Guibox blasts me for it.

And infact, that whole passage is talking about those whose faith is weak as opposed to those whose faith is strong. Those whose faith is strong don't have to avoid unclean foods or honor one day as special. But Paul tells us not to put a stumbling block in those whose faith is weak and let them do what they want to. if they want to avoid unclean foods, let them. If they want to honor certain days, let them, but they don't have to because Christ fulfilled the law for us. And I have said they are free to do so but that the bible never says that the Sabbath is a day of the week since Christ fulfilled the law with his death.

So again, I am sick and tired of being blasted for believing the bible. There's no excuse for it. Again, it's not my fault that after Christ's death the NT explains the Sabbath as different than how the Jews used to perceieve it. If it were not, then why was it written about in Hebrews? :o Everybody would have just assumed that the Sabbath was a day of the week like it has always been thought of. So I have biblical justification for my beliefs but Guibox does not. So attacking me for that is absurd.

 

[Aloha Joe]

Heidi--

Gotcha. So essentially, the command to "observe" the Sabbath remains, it's just that the Sabbath has been translated into the daily rest found in Christ. The New Covenant Sabbath is the "Today" Sabbath of Hebrews 4. Is that it?

I agree for the most part, except that I don't think that we're under obedience to the Ten Commandments. While the Ten Commandments were reflective of the truth of God's Word and will, we are no longer to obey them, in and of themselves. Those were commandments of the Old Covenant, and we dwell in the New Covenant. Certainly, we are not to murder or commit adultery--but for us, that's a result of New Covenant obedience, not Decalogue obedience.

 

[Heidi]

Yes! I agree 100%! I too do not think we are under law for the Ten Commandments, but when coming to Christ for rest, we automatically obey the ten Commandments because of our thankfulness for what God did for us because this breeds love in us which is the fullfillment of the Ten Commandments!

So that's why Jesus fulfilled the law for us because he could do a far better job of it than we ever could! He forgave us so that we can then forgive and love our brother which automatically keeps us from lying to him, stealing from him, murdering him, etc. and thus enables us to keep the commandments. And that is how "love is the fulfillment of the law." Once our hearts are filled with forgiveness, that forgiveness spills onto our neighbor. Our cups are now cleaned from the inside which will make out outsides clean as well, because as jesus says; "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks."

So I do not worry about not keeping the commandments because if I have the love for God in me, I will autmatically keep them.

So all we need is Christ!!!! Amen. :D

 

[PHIL121]

Yes! I agree 100%! I too do not think we are under law for the Ten Commandments, but when coming to Christ for rest, we automatically obey the ten Commandments because of our thankfulness for what God did for us because this breeds love in us which is the fullfillment of the Ten Commandments!

No we don't...EVERYONE has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

No Believer (other than Jesus) is filled with Holy Spirit 100% of the time. Therefore even Believers sin.

And I've caught many Believer's lying, although it one of the Commandments I seem to have the EASIST time keeping (except when I get intimidated by a Court drunk on the blood of martyrs!)

 

[Imagican]

It's really more simple than you guys have tried to make it.

There is not a single person on this planet that is capable of living by the ten commandments and all the rest of the law.

To think so is to contradict all that Christ taught and died for.

As Christ grows in us, our ability to follow God grows in us. Not becuase we make a conscious effort to, but because Christ begins to change us from the inside out.

That is the fulfillment of the Law!!! Knowing that we are incapable of obeying the law, Christ died so we don't have to.

As this ability grows, our inability to follow, through love, disipates and we become more like Christ.

If you believe this and allow it to be your focus, you will surely have accepted the gift that Christ offered so freely.

When the 'body' is mentioned, it is in direct reference to the body of Christ. Get it? As we grow deeper and deeper in the body, we become more and more Christ-like, for in essence we are allowing Him to LIVE IN US.

Eventually guys, we will not war with the flesh as we do now. When we are able to shed our need for self, we will live for God and our neighbor through love without the need for ANY LAW.

Summary of this entire concept:

Love God with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself and you have fulfilled ALL THE LAW. No more need to write down a list of individual laws or to EVEN TRY TO LIVE BY THEM. DO these two things and YOU HAVE FULFILLED ALL THE LAW. And really it's not two things, but ONE= LOVE.

So, in essence there is REALLY only ONE LAW= LOVE!!!

And no matter how you try to live up to the commandments, your effort is for naught if it is not done out of love. Once you learn this love you will no longer struggle with the law.

 

[Heidi]

Yes! I agree 100%! I too do not think we are under law for the Ten Commandments, but when coming to Christ for rest, we automatically obey the ten Commandments because of our thankfulness for what God did for us because this breeds love in us which is the fullfillment of the Ten Commandments!

No we don't...EVERYONE has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

No Believer (other than Jesus) is filled with Holy Spirit 100% of the time. Therefore even Believers sin.

And I've caught many Believer's lying, although it one of the Commandments I seem to have the EASIST time keeping (except when I get intimidated by a Court drunk on the blood of martyrs!)

I think you misunderstood what I said. I didn't say we never sin, I said coming to Christ for forgiveness is how we keep them, not through our own effort. Therefore, if we find outselves coveting, for example, we ask Christ for forgiveness for it & that forgiveness replaces our coveting.

 

[PHIL121]

Using the word "automatically" and putting it in bold, is what threw me off.

No one, not even a Believer "automatically" follows the Law, not even lawyers or judges. :roll:

And Galatians 3 is very clear on how Christ is more important that the law...

"Oh, fooolish Galatians! What magician has hypnotized you and cast an evil speelon you? For you used tosee themeaning of Christ's death as clearly as I waved a placard before you with a picture of Christ dying on the cross. Let me ask you one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by trying to keep the Jewish laws? Of course not, forthe Holy Spirit came upon you only after you heard about Christ and trusted Him to save you. Then have you gone completely crazy? For if trying to obey the Jewish laws never gave you spiritual life in the first place, why do you think that trying to obey them now will make you stronger Christians?"

...The Living Bible

 

[Heidi]

Using the word "automatically" and putting it in bold, is what threw me off.

No one, not even a Believer "automatically" follows the Law, not even lawyers or judges. :roll:

And Galatians 3 is very clear on how Christ is more important that the law...

"Oh, fooolish Galatians! What magician has hypnotized you and cast an evil speelon you? For you used tosee themeaning of Christ's death as clearly as I waved a placard before you with a picture of Christ dying on the cross. Let me ask you one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by trying to keep the Jewish laws? Of course not, forthe Holy Spirit came upon you only after you heard about Christ and trusted Him to save you. Then have you gone completely crazy? For if trying to obey the Jewish laws never gave you spiritual life in the first place, why do you think that trying to obey them now will make you stronger Christians?"

...The Living Bible

Do you not agree with Christ when he said; "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks"? Do you agree with him when he said; "First clean the inside of the vup and the outside will become clean as well."

You are right when you say we cannot obey the law through our own effort. But once the inside of our cups are cleaned with Christ's blood, then "out of the overflow of the hearts the mouth speaks."

 

[PHIL121]

What I beleive is too many Christians are overly obessed with obeying the law, they fail to obey the Holy Spirit.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Using the word "automatically" and putting it in bold, is what threw me off.

No one, not even a Believer "automatically" follows the Law, not even lawyers or judges. :roll:

And Galatians 3 is very clear on how Christ is more important that the law...

"Oh, fooolish Galatians! What magician has hypnotized you and cast an evil speelon you? For you used tosee themeaning of Christ's death as clearly as I waved a placard before you with a picture of Christ dying on the cross. Let me ask you one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by trying to keep the Jewish laws? Of course not, forthe Holy Spirit came upon you only after you heard about Christ and trusted Him to save you. Then have you gone completely crazy? For if trying to obey the Jewish laws never gave you spiritual life in the first place, why do you think that trying to obey them now will make you stronger Christians?"

And you HONESTLY believe that Paul was calling the Galations 'foolish' because they were being obedient to the Ten Commandments? This is where so many of you folks are coming unstuck on this issue. You seem to have no idea what Jewish laws Paul was talking about. There is NO WAY that Paul would call anyone foolish ...

for NOT having any other gods
for NOT making any graven images
for NOT taking the name of God in vain
for KEEPING the Sabbath
for HONORING their father and their mother
for NOT killing
for NOT committing adultery
for NOT stealing
for NOT bearing false witness
for NOT coveting

To suggest that THESE were the Jewish laws that Paul was admonishing the Galations for keeping is Ludicrous with a capital 'L'. Come on guys, don't YOU be the 'foolish' ones here. Consider the Jewish laws that Paul was talking about. They were sure NOT those quoted above. Surely, you must know that. God gave you common sense reasoning skills. What say you take advantage of this gift.

 

[SputnikBoy]

What I beleive is too many Christians are overly obessed with obeying the law, they fail to obey the Holy Spirit.


But there are so MANY MORE Christians these days who are obsessed with promoting DISobedience to God's Law. Furthermore, they do it in the name of the Holy Spirit!

If one is NOT being obedient to God's commands then they are being DISOBEDIENT to God's commands. One can't have it both ways. And it ain't rocket science either. Oh, by the way ..."If you love me, keep my commandments." How much clearer can this be? If the spirit is leading one contrary to this scripture then they need to QUESTION the spirit!

 

[Klee shay]

But there are so MANY MORE Christians these days who are obsessed with promoting DISobedience to God's Law. Furthermore, they do it in the name of the Holy Spirit!

How can promoting the Lord's forgiveness be promoting disobedience to God's commands. It was God's desire that we believe in his son. He sent him to die for us so we could be forgiven. So I ask again, how is it that promoting forgiveness in Christ by acknowledging our disobedience to God in the first place, is promoting further disobedience?

The fact that we possess the holy spirit makes us righteous. It's the actions of every man that is unrighteous. How can the obedient law-obiding Christian be more obedient than the grace-obiding Christian? Is it not the same principal that we all sin and we all need to ask for forgiveness; whether some manage to understand and obey the legalism more than others.

What some forget is that many Christians weren't born Christian. They became Christian. After leading a life in the world they suddenly see the light and "choose" to follow Christ. That doesn't make all their wounds suddenly disappear and all the old demons of the world go away. That requires a time walking with the Lord in faith; just as the Apostles did. A time for failing and a time for forgiveness.

If the spirit is leading one contrary to this scripture then they need to QUESTION the spirit!

This is the exact same mentality the Pharisees used to make their people affraid of Christ, and to ultimately reject him. Their scriptures were the LAWS OF MOSES...and rightly so as it was commanded by God. When Christ appeared however, they could not see him because their hearts and minds were on obeying the LAWS and not the Son of God who clearly stood before them.

One should never question the holy spirit. One should question their own understanding of it and what purpose God has for them...but to encourage people to doubt the holy spirit simply because it does not always lead them in the ways some interpret the scritpure, is foolishness unto man. God does not always work to man's understanding.

The scriptures in the bible will have far more meaning than any man can ever interpret over the many generations of mankind thus far. So what authority do we have to say the holy spirit is acting contrary to that of the scriptures? Only God knows. Do not question the holy spirit. Question your faith.