Matthew 5:17-19 and the law

[SputnikBoy]

Klee shay, while not wanting to get off-track here, every 'tongue-speaking', slaying in the spirit, rolling on the floor with uncontrollable laughter, snorting like a pig and other barnyard animal Pentecostal will tell you that they do these things through an infilling of the Holy Spirit. I'm not for one second implying that ALL Pentecostals do this, by the way. But many Pentecostals perform at least some of the above activities by nature of the culture of the church which REQUIRES an infilling of the HS to 'prove' one's Christianity.

Of course one must test the spirits to see if they are of God. This is known as the discerning of spirits ((1 Corinthians 12:10) We also read about spirits that seduce (1 Timothy 4:1). Do you not believe that Satan is capable of conjuring up counterfeit spirits? Satan, especially these days, is a roaring adversary ready to devour whomever he can. As someone else said recently (Jay T, I think), Satan's biggest ploy would be to get rid of God's commandments. Only then will he gain control.

Why does one need to be painted with a 'Pharisee brush' simply because they choose not to murder, steal, covet, commit adultery, honor their parents? This kind of logic defies reason. And, while you don't know me, Klee shay, I'm one of the few Christians I know who actually promotes forgiveness for ALL sinners. This is why I get so uptight with the questionable views of some on certain other threads. What on earth does 'forgiveness' have to do with one's being obedient to God anyway?

I remain with my previous post ...if one is NOT obedient to God then one is DISOBEDIENT to God. You're the one who is putting the Pharisaical slant on this, Klee shay, and I have no idea why. You almost seem to be taking it personally. The facts are - and no one can deny this unless they deny the scriptures - If you LOVE me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). The Bible is full of similar passages and none of them apply a Pharisaical slant. Christians may well be obedient to God's commands BECAUSE they have an infilling of the Holy Spirit. Have you never considered that possibility?

 

[Klee shay]

Do you not believe that Satan is capable of conjuring up counterfeit spirits?

He cannot conjure up the holy spirit. If one tests this with faith, one cannot be led astray.

As someone else said recently (Jay T, I think), Satan's biggest ploy would be to get rid of God's commandments. Only then will he gain control.

The Lord is counting on this very strategy by the enemy for his second coming to eventuate. I do not see it as a thing to fear but more that it is the will of God. Satan can never control. It is God who is in control. Do you not believe the very words or your Saviour in Matthew 4:10 "Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Why does one need to be painted with a 'Pharisee brush' simply because they choose not to murder, steal, covet, commit adultery, honor their parents?

I only use this term when the obedience to the law seems to stand in the way of seeing the Lord's grace. We all know his stance on what we should be doing according to the scriptures. What then of the man who falls short? Do we tell him he isn't good enough for God's grace to be picked up again and carried by the Lord? No, we remind him of the Lord's walk on the earth to do his father's will. That he ate with the publicans, prostitutes and the tax collectors. He healed the mame. He came to obey once and for all, the commandments his father made for mankind, in love and with a joyful heart.

Once his blood was shed it became about the convernant with Christ and our Father in heaven. It is through him we obey the law, not because we can but because we love him and he loved us enough to die for sin. The Lord sees those that love him and so should we. Not through their sins but through their devotion to pursue him.

What on earth does 'forgiveness' have to do with one's being obedient to God anyway?

Because when the Lord said; "if you LOVE me, keep my commands (John 14:15) he was referring to more than just the law. For it was Christ's command that we also love each other just as he loved us. So in effect he was saying, if you LOVE me love each other as I have loved you - not just the commands pertaining to law.

We should love them regardless of their sin. Have hope for their salvation as Christ did when he took the cross. Forgivness has to do with obeying that which Christ commanded. For our salvaton began when he first forgave us - through our Father in heaven - despite our filthy rags.

You're the one who is putting the Pharisaical slant on this, Klee shay, and I have no idea why. You almost seem to be taking it personally.

I apologise if you feel I am attacking anyone and taking it personally. I put the Pharisaical slant on this because that is what I see. I am only being honest to my perceptions. I am not labelling anyone who is not taking a Pharisaical slant on this situation. If you do not fall into that category, then God will show you the truth and give you the words to enlighten me. Simply saying that I am in error without the Lord's words of truth to justify however, will only cause more gnashing of teeth from everyone.

Christians may well be obedient to God's commands BECAUSE they have an infilling of the Holy Spirit. Have you never considered that possibility?

Oh absolutely, for that is the only way we can obey the commands. I am not against obedience to the scriptures, so long as they're not used as a measuring stick to out-do the other half of the scriptures which also talk about forgiveness as equal billing to the Lord's commands.

A hardened heart will speak hardened words. It was Christ who said the first and greatest command was to love God with all our hearts, mind and spirit, the second commandment akin to the first; to love thy neighbour as thyself. If Christ put these two issues before the law which God himself commanded Moses, why do God fear Christians today, tack it onto the end of obedience as lip service only?

We all say we want to forgive - but how many of us actually do when it comes to discerning the scriptures with other Christains? It is not the lies we must discern when we are living in the body of Christ, for there is nothing new under the sun. It is the truths. Christ is not only present in the obedient Christian to the law, but he is also present in the obedient Christain to faith and grace. We do not know how to discern these matters as our Lord does, so we tend to lump everyone in the same category and label them as not being spirit filled. How cheap we value the sacrifice of our Lord.

I say God will fill them with the spirit more assuredly, when they are being persecuted in his name. That is what happened with the Jews and the Gentiles. God will offer his spirit to the sinful man in need of a saviour; so long as he is willing, for that is the only reason God willingly spilled the blood of his own son. It was for the sinful man. There were no righteous among us.

Why do we believe that we are righteous even now, when it is only the blood of Christ which is saving us. How can I lay claim to that blood if I do not obey those two commandments Christ called higher than them all?

Those who love Christ will obey his commands in the order that he set them.