millenium

[toddm]

How long is a generation ???????????

30-40 years. Christ's ministry was somewhere around 30 AD, so that puts his prophecy exactly in the timeline for 70 AD.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

How long is a generation ???????????

30-40 years. Christ's ministry was somewhere around 30 AD, so that puts his prophecy exactly in the timeline for 70 AD.

Christ said the generation of the fig tree would see all of those things spoken in Matthew 24 and mark 13 come to pass.....Including seeing the son of Man (Christ) return......

SO If this Generation started in 30Ad and a generation is 40 years,,,that mean Christ would had returned in 70Ad or before 30AD+40=70AD......

I also see you guys are avoiding revelation.....

You cant say all these things happened in 70Ad then turn around and say Christ hasnt returned yet,,,,,,this generation will see all these things come to pass then see the son of MAn....

24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

YOu mangled the book of revelation,,,,because you dont understand that the seals are linked to the word Christ spoke,,,,,please go read and learn the seals,,,,,,,,,If we turn to rev you will be lost confused and it will not go with what you are saying.....

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Satan has been on earth since it's creation. The fact that he was in the garden should be enough evidence that he couldn't be in heaven and in the garden of Eden at the same time.

O really,,,thats funny because I remember satan presenting Hisdelf before God after the garden of Eden....

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them

So where was God when this happen???????? If you say on earth,,,,im just going to laugh and be like your biblically ignorant......If you say God was in heaven then you have debunked your own silly argument.....

SO where was God when this happen??????? Remember you said Satan is a already kicked out,,,so whats he doing presenting himself before God,,,,,this should be good........

I'm very familiar with the book. You do understand it's chiastic nature right?

I am familiar with the whole book and ready to release at anytime....you?????

Does it say anything about these so called bodies ascending to heaven anywhere in Revelation?

Your making this to easy!! Behold

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Yes my friend it says something about there bodys going to heaven,,,but at least you asked,,,,instead of concluding.

 

[toddm]

Do you understand what the seals of revelation are????? DO you understand that Christ named these seals in Mark 13??????? SO by saying Mark 13 has taken place you are saying the seals of revelation has taken place....Which makes me believe you havent studied revelation or you simply dont understand...

I do understand that. I think it's rather arrogant of you to assume that I haven't studied simply because I don't agree with YOUR viewpoint. It's quite prideful to say "my view is right and everyone else's is idiotic". I would say that the 7 seals mentioned in Matt. 24 & Mark 13 are expanded on in Rev. 6 and that they were events preceding and leading up to 70 AD. It's quite interesting that Josephus (not sure if you've ever read any of his stuff) lists a lot of what Jesus describes in Matt. 24 as occurring in in the 1st century. Let's look at the seals...

1st seal (Rev. 6:2) - A white horse who's rider came out to conquer (sounds an aweful lot like Jesus in Rev. 19:11-16). This is the proclamation of judgment on the nation of Israel for rejecting their Messiah (Matt. 23)

2nd seal (Rev. 6:4) - Red typically symbolizes blood or war and we see that this rider is given a great sword to take away peace. Did we someone or something do that in the 1st century? Yes. Rome. The 60s AD brought about increasing animosity between the Jews and Romans (Matt. 24:6), hence the Jewish-Roman war that began in the mid-60s and culminated in 70 AD w/ Jerusalem's destruction.

3rd seal (Rev. 6:5-6) - A black horse that indicates a famine (Matt. 24:7). Josephus records in his "Antiquities of the Jews" that the first tactic of the Roman empire in besieging Jerusalem was cutting off their roads and therefore cutting off their food supply. In fact, the famine became so bad that Josephus records a mother who took her baby and cut it in half, roasted one half and saved the other to eat at a later time (Matt. 24:19 perhaps?)

4th seal (Rev. 6:7-8) - The 4th seal is death that comes about by the sword and famine. This is a logical next phase following a famine caused by the Romans and animosity continues to increase. We still see this being a very likely possibility for occurring in the 1st century.

5th seal (Rev. 6:9) - persecution of the saints. All the Apostles, save John, were martyred prior to 70 AD. Nero was one of the most brutal persecutor of Christians in the 60s and this is well-documented and known. Still, we see good possibilities for this referring to the 1st century.

6th seal (Rev. 6:12) - now we see the "cosmic" language coming into play that Jesus uses in Matt. 24:29 where he says after this tribulation (1st 5 seals). Remember that this is figurative language to describe God's judgment in Isaiah 13:5-6 and Joel 2:10. Earthquakes are also used figuratively to describe God's judgment in Joel 2:10.

7th seal (Rev. 8:1-5) - The number 7 is often symbolic in Scripture for completion or perfection (ie, 7th day of creation). Therefore, the 7th seal symbolizes a completion of Israel's judgment.

Now, you may or may not agree w/ those views, but I've at least provided very good reasons as to why I see the fulfillment of these passages in the 1st century. I've given not only internal reasoning from Scripture, but also external reasons from the historical context.

When satan arrives on the earth,,,,he will play the role of Christ (antichrist) ,,,,He will stand in Jerusalem claiming to be Christ/God taking away the daily oblation.....

What passage does it say Satan will do this and that he is the antichrist?? I'd like to know where you're coming from in Scripture so I can engage what the text actually says instead of an "idea" of what the text means.

SO your saying satan has been kicked out of heaven to the earth already,,,,which means the antichrist and the mark of the beast is all over with......

Well of course Satan has been kicked out of heaven, that happened before Adam & Eve. We even see in Job 1 that Satan is roaming the earth. What is the "mark of the beast"? Is it a literal mark? Exodus 13:9 and Deuteronomy 6:8 were not literal marks, but they were symbolic as to where their allegiance was. There are good reasons to believe that the beast from the sea and the beast from the land (Rev. 13) are Rome and the Jews. We can get into that if you want, but I've already given you lots to think about (if you choose to do so).

Again, if you let me know what end times framework and viewpoint you're coming from, then that may add some clarity to your posts as I'm a bit familiar w/ what each eschatological view is. I am a partial preterist and an optimistic amillennialist (or postmillennialist that views we're already in the millennium), just so you know where I'm coming from. I'm sure you're familiar w/ my views since you've obviously spent a great deal of time studying eschatology.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

RND go back and incorporate revelation into your study.....

YOu dont understand the witnesses and the candlesticks......

Shall we go back and take a long look at revelation 11?????????? and decide wheter this has taken place or not........

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Do you understand what the seals of revelation are????? DO you understand that Christ named these seals in Mark 13??????? SO by saying Mark 13 has taken place you are saying the seals of revelation has taken place....Which makes me believe you havent studied revelation or you simply dont understand...

I do understand that. I think it's rather arrogant of you to assume that I haven't studied simply because I don't agree with YOUR viewpoint. It's quite prideful to say "my view is right and everyone else's is idiotic". I would say that the 7 seals mentioned in Matt. 24 & Mark 13 are expanded on in Rev. 6 and that they were events preceding and leading up to 70 AD. It's quite interesting that Josephus (not sure if you've ever read any of his stuff) lists a lot of what Jesus describes in Matt. 24 as occurring in in the 1st century. Let's look at the seals...

1st seal (Rev. 6:2) - A white horse who's rider came out to conquer (sounds an aweful lot like Jesus in Rev. 19:11-16). This is the proclamation of judgment on the nation of Israel for rejecting their Messiah (Matt. 23)

2nd seal (Rev. 6:4) - Red typically symbolizes blood or war and we see that this rider is given a great sword to take away peace. Did we someone or something do that in the 1st century? Yes. Rome. The 60s AD brought about increasing animosity between the Jews and Romans (Matt. 24:6), hence the Jewish-Roman war that began in the mid-60s and culminated in 70 AD w/ Jerusalem's destruction.

3rd seal (Rev. 6:5-6) - A black horse that indicates a famine (Matt. 24:7). Josephus records in his "Antiquities of the Jews" that the first tactic of the Roman empire in besieging Jerusalem was cutting off their roads and therefore cutting off their food supply. In fact, the famine became so bad that Josephus records a mother who took her baby and cut it in half, roasted one half and saved the other to eat at a later time (Matt. 24:19 perhaps?)

4th seal (Rev. 6:7-8) - The 4th seal is death that comes about by the sword and famine. This is a logical next phase following a famine caused by the Romans and animosity continues to increase. We still see this being a very likely possibility for occurring in the 1st century.

5th seal (Rev. 6:9) - persecution of the saints. All the Apostles, save John, were martyred prior to 70 AD. Nero was one of the most brutal persecutor of Christians in the 60s and this is well-documented and known. Still, we see good possibilities for this referring to the 1st century.

6th seal (Rev. 6:12) - now we see the "cosmic" language coming into play that Jesus uses in Matt. 24:29 where he says after this tribulation (1st 5 seals). Remember that this is figurative language to describe God's judgment in Isaiah 13:5-6 and Joel 2:10. Earthquakes are also used figuratively to describe God's judgment in Joel 2:10.

7th seal (Rev. 8:1-5) - The number 7 is often symbolic in Scripture for completion or perfection (ie, 7th day of creation). Therefore, the 7th seal symbolizes a completion of Israel's judgment.

Now, you may or may not agree w/ those views, but I've at least provided very good reasons as to why I see the fulfillment of these passages in the 1st century. I've given not only internal reasoning from Scripture, but also external reasons from the historical context.

When satan arrives on the earth,,,,he will play the role of Christ (antichrist) ,,,,He will stand in Jerusalem claiming to be Christ/God taking away the daily oblation.....

What passage does it say Satan will do this and that he is the antichrist?? I'd like to know where you're coming from in Scripture so I can engage what the text actually says instead of an "idea" of what the text means.

[quote:3ntb0wr6]SO your saying satan has been kicked out of heaven to the earth already,,,,which means the antichrist and the mark of the beast is all over with......

Well of course Satan has been kicked out of heaven, that happened before Adam & Eve. We even see in Job 1 that Satan is roaming the earth. What is the "mark of the beast"? Is it a literal mark? Exodus 13:9 and Deuteronomy 6:8 were not literal marks, but they were symbolic as to where their allegiance was. There are good reasons to believe that the beast from the sea and the beast from the land (Rev. 13) are Rome and the Jews. We can get into that if you want, but I've already given you lots to think about (if you choose to do so).

Again, if you let me know what end times framework and viewpoint you're coming from, then that may add some clarity to your posts as I'm a bit familiar w/ what each eschatological view is. I am a partial preterist and an optimistic amillennialist (or postmillennialist that views we're already in the millennium), just so you know where I'm coming from. I'm sure you're familiar w/ my views since you've obviously spent a great deal of time studying eschatology.[/quote:3ntb0wr6]

WOW this is trully amazing bro,,,,,ok step by step here,,,,,

Ok lets crank up the knowledge a little bit.............

1st seal (Rev. 6:2) - A white horse who's rider came out to conquer (sounds an aweful lot like Jesus in Rev. 19:11-16).

Ok this is just sick,,,,,,

Lets evaluate,,,,,THe rider of the white horse as a "bow" but hes missing arrows,,,,what good is a bow without arrow???????? its useless,,,,,,see this rider has authority but no real strenght.....

"bow" - 5115 toxon (tox'-on); from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric): KJV-- bow.

Cheap,,,simple,,,this is not Christ,,,it is satan/antichrist pretending to be Christ and from the looks of it he already has you fooled......

Lets add to this,,,,

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

So when you say satan/antchrist looks alike like my Lord,,,,,exspect me to get :mad

 

[Caroline H]

You know, if people would learn how to discuss things in a Christian manner, maybe threads wouldn't get locked all the time :bicker. Some of you spend so much time studying Revelation and end-time prophecy, which is all good and well. But I wonder if you spent a fraction of as much time studying the rest of Scripture you might come across some teachings about LOVE that would better edify you and build up the body of Christ, rather than tearing each other down and filling your hearts with bitterness and strife.

:2cents

 

[Vic C.]

I couldn't agree more, Caroline! End Times can be addicting and therefore, one must be careful to balance out their studies.

I will clean up this thread in a little while and take the necessary measures needed to make sure that this horrible tone and smarter than thou attitude ceases. Please put away your egos, people. You are supposed to be mature Christians. Act as such. Learn how to respectfully disagree with another member and not insist your belief is the end of all beliefs. Good Lord, this is far from even being a salvific issue!

:gah

Thank you.

 

[toddm]

Cheap,,,simple,,,this is not Christ,,,it is satan/antichrist pretending to be Christ and from the looks of it he already has you fooled......

Where does it say it's Satan or the anti-christ? Where do you see Satan or the anti-christ riding a white horse in order to have a proper base for your hermeneutic? You can't just attach a text to another text that has no warrant for being connected. Again, you're reading into the text something that is not there.

I would admit that this rider MAY be symbolic for a hostile military power (the Parthians, enemies of Rome, were armed w/ a bow), and me be symbolic of the primary mobilization or an army for war.

Furthermore, the text doesn't say he only had a bow. It just mentions that he had a bow, so your bow w/o arrows argument doesn't really hold much weight.

 

[Elf]

YOu dont understand the witnesses and the candlesticks......

Shall we go back and take a long look at revelation 11?????????? and decide wheter this has taken place or not........

Here is my understanding of Rev 11.

Though this chapter contains many obscure things that have not been revealed yet, some things are revealed with some study.

For example, Vs:1 The measure is God's doctrine, The Temple signifies all the faithful, who are His temple.
The alter is Christ, who is offered for us. The court signifies antichrist's followers, who by their ceremonies and and superstitions, boast themselves to be Christ's temple.

By this he means God's true servants, and the foundation on which they rest, must be measured by the rule of God's Word. And also by this same word distinguishes (exposes) impostors (the counterfeit), that is, antichristians from among them.

Vs:2 Those who are signified by the court, antichrist and those who are his, will tread down the faithful people, who are meant by the holy City.

Vs:3 "two witnesses" this signifies the small number of witnesses, compared to the vessels of antichrist.

Vs:4 Two olive trees signify the most excellent graces of them who bear witness to God's truth.

It makes pretty good sense to me.

 

[RND]

YOu dont understand the witnesses and the candlesticks......

You know, it's easy to say to someone, "you don't know this" or "you know know that" but it's a lot harder to use scripture to back up your disagreement with another statement.

I've yet to see you use scripture to show me where I'm wrong. For example, you claim the "two witnesses" are human beings that die and I suppose (in your theological bent) lay dead in the street for 3 1/2 days. Where is this notion ever advanced in scripture that I can confirm it to be true?

Shall we go back and take a long look at revelation 11?????????? and decide wheter this has taken place or not........

You are free to if you'd like.

 

[RND]

My props to the Admins responsible for cleaning up this thread somewhat. The caustic and rude nature of some posters is becoming unbearable.

 

[Elf]

I've yet to see you use scripture to show me where I'm wrong. For example, you claim the "two witnesses" are human beings that die and I suppose (in your theological bent) lay dead in the street for 3 1/2 days. Where is this notion ever advanced in scripture that I can confirm it to be true?

RND, don't hold your breath while your waiting, there is no scripture support.

 

[RND]

I've yet to see you use scripture to show me where I'm wrong. For example, you claim the "two witnesses" are human beings that die and I suppose (in your theological bent) lay dead in the street for 3 1/2 days. Where is this notion ever advanced in scripture that I can confirm it to be true?

RND, don't hold your breath while your waiting, there is no scripture support.

:D I've learned in these forums never to "hold my breath" waiting for anything! As I'm sure you would, I would certainly like to see the acerbic nature of some of these threads end however.

 

[Elf]

I've yet to see you use scripture to show me where I'm wrong. For example, you claim the "two witnesses" are human beings that die and I suppose (in your theological bent) lay dead in the street for 3 1/2 days. Where is this notion ever advanced in scripture that I can confirm it to be true?

RND, don't hold your breath while your waiting, there is no scripture support.

:D I've learned in these forums never to "hold my breath" waiting for anything! As I'm sure you would, I would certainly like to see the acerbic nature of some of these threads end however.

Yes I agree, we have to agree to disagree.

 

[MMarc]

Well, I for one know for a fact the millenium has started, Satan was taken out of the way in Heaven in spring of 2004.

I was attacked by Satan back in 2000 so when I saw him again in 2004, he was sealed for a thousand years.

People can argue till the cow comes home, but spiritual discernment is hard to argue.

Now Jesus the Christ who fulfilled the law of Moises on earth upon His flesh had to fulfill Atonement in Heaven (rev 5). As the Lamb who was slain, this is the lamb of atonement.

So argue away but Toddm has it correctly. When we are changed it is a spiritual change. (inside out)

Jesus reconcilled us to God on earth because of Passover, now that Jesus fulfills Atonement, it triggers the resurrection and after the resurrection we are reconciled with God in Heaven.

So not only our Spirit returns to God who gave it but our souls return to God.

 

[veteran]

Spiritual discernment MUST always agree with what's written in God's Word. And per God's Word, Christ is to return physically to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, with His saints (Acts 1; Zechariah 14).

But what you're saying, is that Christ's Milennium can begin without His return to this earth. That's the doctrine of Preterism. Revelation 20 shows Christ and His elect reigning on earth when Satan is bound in the pit for a thousand years. So where is our Lord Jesus here on earth today, ruling with His elect priests and kings? That event has not happenned yet, which is also a sign that Christ's Milennium reign has not begun yet either.

 

[MMarc]

Spiritual discernment MUST always agree with what's written in God's Word. And per God's Word, Christ is to return physically to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, with His saints (Acts 1; Zechariah 14).

But what you're saying, is that Christ's Milennium can begin without His return to this earth. That's the doctrine of Preterism. Revelation 20 shows Christ and His elect reigning on earth when Satan is bound in the pit for a thousand years. So where is our Lord Jesus here on earth today, ruling with His elect priests and kings? That event has not happenned yet, which is also a sign that Christ's Milennium reign has not begun yet either.

Who says Jesus hasn't returned yet, Jesus was on earth when He saw Satan come down from Heaven like lightning, Satan wasn't tied down at that time.

Many have already seen Jesus, the mountain in Zachariah is a spiritual mountain.

Rev 14 speaks of the same mountain.

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

As to where Jesus is, Jesus said to not go when someone says look here or look there.
So Jesus will be revealed to all eyes, all spiritual eyes.

I'm not the only one who saw Jesus walk the earth already, don't worry He will be revealed soon enough by the Father, just have faith.

What most seem to miss is that Jesus has to fulfill the fall feasts, He does so in darkness, then He will be revealed.

 

[(THE)]

Well, I for one know for a fact the millenium has started, Satan was taken out of the way in Heaven in spring of 2004.

I was attacked by Satan back in 2000 so when I saw him again in 2004, he was sealed for a thousand years.

People can argue till the cow comes home, but spiritual discernment is hard to argue.

Now Jesus the Christ who fulfilled the law of Moises on earth upon His flesh had to fulfill Atonement in Heaven (rev 5). As the Lamb who was slain, this is the lamb of atonement.

So argue away but Toddm has it correctly. When we are changed it is a spiritual change. (inside out)

Jesus reconcilled us to God on earth because of Passover, now that Jesus fulfills Atonement, it triggers the resurrection and after the resurrection we are reconciled with God in Heaven.

So not only our Spirit returns to God who gave it but our souls return to God.

YOu do understand that the millenium happens when Christ returns right????? YOu are actually contradicting yourself by reading this very post.......As long as we are in flesh bodys the 7th trump has not sounded thus the millenium has not begun.....

 

[MMarc]

"The one whom you seek shall suddenly come into His temple."

Jesus returns from Heaven, ie as a spirit, and He must have a temple to come into, a human vessel.

I have already been changed in a blink of an eye when I received the Kingdom, I was forever changed.
You don't have to be physically in heaven to rule with Christ in Heaven, as He has given us authority in Jesus. The idea is "your Kingdom comes on earth as it is in heave."

You can look at it with physical eyes and ears or spiritual eyes and ears.