millenium

[NIGHTMARE]

What possible connection is there between the fig tree in the Olivet Discourses and Jeremiah 24, other than they both talk about a fig? Jesus' entire point about the fig tree was this - just like you see a fig tree budding and you know that spring is here, so you'll see these signs and know that the judgment is here.

An example of pure biblical ignorance....

YOu dont understand what happenined in the garden concerning figs so your ignorance continues too the New test......BUt one thing is clear,,,you have not followe Christ instructions....

Matthew 24:32 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; when his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"

The final generation started in 1948 when the good and bad figs returned,,,whats so hard to understand about that.....

 

[toddm]

It's not simple, and nothing in the text supports that it is some distant generation (as I have shown). Furthermore, let's think about this logically. Why would the disciples ask and Jesus tells them something that is completely irrelevant to them? It just doesn't seem right.
toddm

Christ is simple and when you get people they say its not there usally confused.....

All the prophet/men of God wondered about the end of the age,,,,its seems perfectly fine they would want to know the event of the end,,,,,,according to you and Drew this age is over.......lol

If Christ said all these things would happen in 1 generation,,,then that means all the things would have taken place well within 2,000 years.....So obvious your wrong.....

Ummm...they did. In 70 AD when the Temple and Jerusalem were utterly destroyed. All we're waiting for now is Christ's return & Final Judgment.

 

[toddm]

Dude get a clue,,,,,,I dont believe in a rapture......100% against it....

Love the grace here. haha
So, then what did you mean when you said that "we're still here" and your reference to the angels gathering the elect? Don't make ambiguous statements, and then get upset with me for not understanding you.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Dude get a clue,,,,,,I dont believe in a rapture......100% against it....

Love the grace here. haha
So, then what did you mean when you said that "we're still here" and your reference to the angels gathering the elect? Don't make ambiguous statements, and then get upset with me for not understanding you.

"were still here" you probably here so much rapture bull you taught I was refering to playing Peter pan in the clouds,,,NO sir....

What I mean is the "elects" will be gathered (not raptured) but gathered together at the return of Christ,,,we will be changed and we will be gathered with Christ to reign/teach 1000 years (one day)........

Christ is returning to earth ,,,if I get raptured I will miss Him......

If the generation Christ was refering to in Mark 13 was in 70AD we would already have been gathered changed,,,,and satan would be locked up already.......

 

[toddm]

What possible connection is there between the fig tree in the Olivet Discourses and Jeremiah 24, other than they both talk about a fig? Jesus' entire point about the fig tree was this - just like you see a fig tree budding and you know that spring is here, so you'll see these signs and know that the judgment is here.

An example of pure biblical ignorance....

YOu dont understand what happenined in the garden concerning figs so your ignorance continues too the New test......BUt one thing is clear,,,you have not followe Christ instructions....

Okay, I'm the one that's ignorant. Jeremiah 24 is referring to the Jews in exile. The remnant that returns are those after the 70 yr exile. They are completely unrelated! Jeremiah's vision of the figs is referencing 2 different people groups. Jesus' reference to the fig TREE (not good or bad figs) concerns recognition of a season.

Look at Luke's account of the same passage in Luke 21:29 - "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees." This is obviously not a reference to good & bad figs from Jer. 24 because Jesus points out not only fig trees, but all trees. Again, the point is to recognize a certain time just like budding trees are indicative of spring (a period of time), so will these other signs be indicative of Jesus' coming judgment (a period of time).

Where did you learn this? I've spoken w/ dispensationalists who haven't even heard this connection.

The final generation started in 1948 when the good and bad figs returned,,,whats so hard to understand about that.....

What's so hard to understand is that NO WHERE IN THE TEXT DOES IT SAY THAT! You're reading into the text from a theological system. You presupposing theological IDEAS into the text when those ideas are not biblically based.

 

[toddm]

What I mean is the "elects" will be gathered (not raptured) but gathered together at the return of Christ,,,we will be changed and we will be gathered with Christ to reign/teach 1000 years (one day)........

Christ is returning to earth ,,,if I get raptured I will miss Him......

If the generation Christ was refering to in Mark 13 was in 70AD we would already have been gathered changed,,,,and satan would be locked up already.......

Just to help me better understand your viewpoint, what millennial view and eschatological framework do you hold to?

Does the "gathering of elects" happen before or after a tribulation? Do you believe in a 7-yr Great Tribulation?

 

[Drew]

All the prophet/men of God wondered about the end of the age,,,,its seems perfectly fine they would want to know the event of the end,,,,,,according to you and Drew this age is over.......lol

If Christ said all these things would happen in 1 generation,,,then that means all the things would have taken place well within 2,000 years.....So obvious your wrong.....

All that stuff did happen, when it is properly understood by honouring the Biblical tradition and not thinking that people 2000 plus years ago were simply incapable of the use of literary devices.

Let's stop playing games. We all know that this apocalyptic language - earthquakes, coming on the clouds, etc. appears in the Old Testament in places where it is inarguably being used metaphorically.

That is not really debatable, I suggest.

The interesting question then becomes this: Precisely how do you and so many others live with the obvious contradiction of taking this imagery literally when it is clear that the Biblical precedent demands a metaphorical reading.

A modern analogy: We all that the phrase "shake a leg" is an instruction to hurry. What kind of person, given the well-established metaphorical use, would read the phrase and think someone is being instructed to stand in place and shake one leg?

It literally (pun intended) boggles the mind....

 

[NIGHTMARE]

All the prophet/men of God wondered about the end of the age,,,,its seems perfectly fine they would want to know the event of the end,,,,,,according to you and Drew this age is over.......lol

If Christ said all these things would happen in 1 generation,,,then that means all the things would have taken place well within 2,000 years.....So obvious your wrong.....

All that stuff did happen, when it is properly understood by honouring the Biblical tradition and not thinking that people 2000 plus years ago were simply incapable of the use of literary devices.

Let's stop playing games. We all know that this apocalyptic language - earthquakes, coming on the clouds, etc. appears in the Old Testament in places where it is inarguably being used metaphorically.

That is not really debatable, I suggest.

The interesting question then becomes this: Precisely how do you and so many others live with the obvious contradiction of taking this imagery literally when it is clear that the Biblical precedent demands a metaphorical reading.

A modern analogy: We all that the phrase "shake a leg" is an instruction to hurry. What kind of person, given the well-established metaphorical use, would read the phrase and think someone is being instructed to stand in place and shake one leg?

It literally (pun intended) boggles the mind....

Please show what I have taken literal,,,that not ought be.....

I cant wait to get off work and go kick my feet up,,,,,No todd I will not be kicking me feet at all...
and after I think I might go paint the town red,,,,no Im not bringing red paint....

Indeed I understand figures of speech.....

 

[MMarc]

Yes, you are correct. What kind of peole will be passing the millenial reign of Christ? Are they the survivors of the Armagedon? Are they bearing the mark of the beast? Where did they came from?

The children of the resurrection, the firstfruits unto God and His lamb. Like the firstfruits of the spring harvest when Jesus died and resurrected, the OT saints also resurrected with Jesus. these are the firstfruits of the endtime harvest, the fall harvest if you will.

They are sealed when Jesus fulfills Trumpets and Atonement and are revealed with Christ at Tabernacles.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

All the prophet/men of God wondered about the end of the age,,,,its seems perfectly fine they would want to know the event of the end,,,,,,according to you and Drew this age is over.......lol

If Christ said all these things would happen in 1 generation,,,then that means all the things would have taken place well within 2,000 years.....So obvious your wrong.....

All that stuff did happen, when it is properly understood by honouring the Biblical tradition and not thinking that people 2000 plus years ago were simply incapable of the use of literary devices.

Let's stop playing games. We all know that this apocalyptic language - earthquakes, coming on the clouds, etc. appears in the Old Testament in places where it is inarguably being used metaphorically.

That is not really debatable, I suggest.

The interesting question then becomes this: Precisely how do you and so many others live with the obvious contradiction of taking this imagery literally when it is clear that the Biblical precedent demands a metaphorical reading.

A modern analogy: We all that the phrase "shake a leg" is an instruction to hurry. What kind of person, given the well-established metaphorical use, would read the phrase and think someone is being instructed to stand in place and shake one leg?

It literally (pun intended) boggles the mind....

All that stuff did happen huh?????

Please prove the gathering of the elect has occured already.....

Please prove that the elect have been brung before satan/antichrist giving a testomony against Him...

and theres much more.....

 

[Drew]

I suggest that Matthew 24 does not deal with the second coming but rather with the events of 70 AD – the fall of Jerusalem. There is a long tradition of Matthew 24 (and its parallels) being read as prophecies about the second coming. However, there is every reason to challenge such an assertion. Consider the opening text of Matthew 24:

Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down." As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

In verse 2, Jesus makes a clear allusion to a coming destruction of the temple. Which temple? A future temple thousands of years in the future? Of course not. The disciples point to the temple they are asking about – it is the one they (and Jesus) are looking at. The disciples then ask about the timing of this. What is Jesus’ answer?:

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

It should be obvious that the reading that I am advancing allows us to take Jesus at his word – 70 AD is one generation away. The 2nd coming hypothesis is forced to awkwardly rework the meaning of this statement. What is the justification for such a rework? Has Jesus given the listener any reason at all to think that He is talking about another generation? No, He has not.

What about this statement? Doesn’t this statement tell us that Jesus is talking about the end times and not 70 AD?

But immediately after the (AI)tribulation of those days (AJ)THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND (AK)THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Well, Jesus is here quoting Isaiah 13, where this exact same language is used. And what is the prophetic material in Isaiah 13 all about? The end of the world? No. It is about the defeat of Babylon, something we know has already happened. Conclusion: “end of the world†language is not to be taken literally. So this statement by Jesus in Matthew 24 does not requires us to think that the discourse is about events in our future.

One needs to remember the context. Jesus has come to Jerusalem with His followers. What are the followers thinking? They are thinking that Jesus will be installed as King. Despite repeated attempts on the part of Jesus to indicate that He is going there to die, the disciples simply do not seem able to take that on board. Given the inability of the disciples to understand that Jesus has to die, it is hardly likely that they can even get their minds around the matter of a 2nd coming – they have not come to terms with the need for Jesus to die and leave them in the first place. Perhaps some will dispute my claim that the disciples did not understand that Jesus needs to die. Fair enough, but my argument does not depend on this point in order to succeed.

There is still the matter of the “parousia†– the coming of Jesus. An objector to my assertion will no doubt argue that the Matthew 24 material cannot be about the events of 70 AD since we all know that Jesus did not “come to us†in 70 AD. Well, one needs to understand that “parousia†means “presence†– the word in and of itself does not necessitate a reading where Jesus descends to us from the heavens. And the word is often used in relation to the visit of a royal person. The important point for present purposes is that “parousia†can legitimately be seen to denote enthronement, and need not connote literal travel from point A to point B.

Remember now what the disciples are waiting for. It is that Jesus be enthroned at King. Remember also what has recently happened in the Temple. Jesus has gone in and upset the tables of the vendors. Most people see this as a protest against “commercialization†of the holy temple. Although I will not argue the point here, I believe that Jesus is pronouncing symbolic judgement on the temple, enacting its imminent destruction through the agency of Rome.

Either way, Jesus’ action in the temple would have clear Messianic interpretations for any Jew familiar with the Old Testament and with recent Jewish history. It is specifically the King who is the one who has authority over the temple (think of David ordering the building of the temple and Solomon completing, not to mention other similar figures in the Jewish tradition, such as Simon Ben Kosibar). So when Jesus does His thing in the temple, his disciples will see this as a claim of kingship.

All this works together to help us see that when they ask Jesus about his “coming†(parousia), they are really asking about the time when He will be installed as King – they are not asking Him when He will return to earth in a 2nd coming (they have no concept of a second coming to begin with) And lest there be any misunderstanding, it is clear from the New Testament that Jesus is not waiting to be enthroned at a second coming – He has already been installed 2000 years ago as a sitting King. So my hypothesis about the meaning of the material in Matthew 24 is entirely consistent with the disciples’ question about the parousia – Jesus comes into His Kingship as the old age of the temple passes away.

Much more should be said. Another key argument in support of my hypothesis is the reference to the “son of man coming on the cloud†reference later in the chapter. This is an image drawn from Daniel 7 which does not refer to a downward descent from heaven to earth (as the 2nd coming hypothesis would require). It is instead an upward movement from earth to heaven followed by enthronement. As should be clear, this is entirely what my hypothesis demands – the son of man coming on the clouds is a reference to enthronement, not a 2nd coming.

 

[toddm]

All that stuff did happen huh?????

edited

Please prove that the abomination of the desolator as occureed already....

Please prove the gathering of the elect has occured already.....

Please prove that the elect have been brung before satan/antichrist giving a testomony against Him...

and theres much more.....

edited

First of all, Nightmare, as a follower of Christ, may I suggest some more grace in your posts? I don't think there's any reason to talk down to people and treat them like they're intellectually inferior. We're just having a conversation. Neither myself nor Drew have said that YOUR ideas are dumb, but we have challenged you w/ legitimate texts in the Scripture - to which you have offered no rebuttal. You haven't offered any explanation for the word "generation", the obvious figurative language that Jesus uses in quoting from the OT, or considered the Olivet Discourse in a historical context. Drew and I are not trying to lie to you (as you seem to be suggesting), we're merely trying to get you to think outside of the view that you've been spoonfed. I'm actually offended that you think I'm trying to somehow lead you astray w/ my "bold face lies".

What is your understanding of the "abomination that causes desolation"? Are you going to insert the antichrist here where there is absolutely no hermeneutical warrant for it? The "abomination" was a reference to Antiochus Epiphanes (Daniel 9) who came in and desecrated the temple by destroying it and sacrificing swine on the altar (an utter abomination). He set himself up in the temple and pronounced himself to be "god". This historical context was something the Jews of Jesus' day were familiar with.

So, what is the abomination that causes desolation that Jesus speaks of? Well, there are a couple of ideas, but they all happened in the 1st century and would've obviously conjured up memories of Antichus Epiphanes for the 1st century Jew.

1) General Titus acted in very similar to Epiphanes when he destroyed the temple in 70 AD and proclaimed himself to be "god". This is a likely abomination that causes desolation.

2) The next view is a bit more complex and involves looking at some Scripture in context. As Jesus leaves the temple at the end of Matt. 23, he states in vs. 38 "YOUR house is left to you desolate". Jesus is referring to the temple, but he doesn't refer to it as MY house, but YOUR (the Jews) house. Well, why is the Jew's house being left desolate? Because they refuse to accept the Messiah. Why was Epiphanes' sacrifice of swine an abomination to the Temple? Because everyone knows that pigs are about the most unclean animal for a Jew and by sacrificing it it desecrated the altar. Now, what could be more offensive than that?!? Well, the Jews, by offering continued sacrifices after Jesus already made the ultimate sacrifice, would have been desecrating the altar (and God) to the utmost abomination. They are now not only rejecting Jesus as the Messiah by their words, but also w/ their actions. It's a slap in the face to God. It's an abomination that causes God to leave the Temple desolate and a worthless act of continued sacrifice. It has now become like what Isaiah says in Is. 66:3 - He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man; he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck; he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers pig's blood; he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol. These have chosen their ways, and their soul delights in their abominations.

I used to lean toward view #1, but I find myself leaning more toward view #2 these days.

Have the elect already been gathered? The Church is still here isn't it? After 70 AD, Christians were no longer viewed as an "off-shoot" of Judaism by the Romans.

Have the elect been brought before the "antichrist" to suffer? Well, all 12 Apostles were brutally martyred except for John who was exiled to Patmos. The greatest persecution of Christians in the 1st century happened during Nero's reign (mid 60s AD). Did the early Christians go through a "great tribulation"? Absolutely.

So, Nightmare, instead of just shooting down what I've said, how about you engage the issues at hand? How about you try reading some of these passages without your futurist "glasses" on and see if the text is really saying what YOU THINK it says? And how about keeping it civil and mature? We're all big boys here who love Christ and want to have a better understanding of His Word, so let's play nice, ok? :D

 

[toddm]

Your false doctrine is going to fall apart real soon maybe when you are actually watching satan take away the daily oblation you will understand that Matthew 24 is directed to this generation...

And what if that doesn't happen and it's not directed toward this generation?

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Christ said the temple would be destroyed in the same generation that the abomination of desloation(desolator) takes place....SO you r saying this abomination happen years ago correct...

So from 70AD uintil know only covers one generation?????? Ridiculous.....

Christ also said that the generation would see the son of Man (Christ) SO according you you Christ Advent happen in the generation of 70AD......Please believe what you will,,,,if your brain isnt capable of seeing this GIANT error then its not much we can discuss.....

I know that most christians will not believe this garbage so im really not trippin,,,but I could simply ask a serious of questions that would present your err to everyone.....

 

[toddm]

Dude, seriously. Do you read ANYTHING that I've posted?? How old are you?? Your immaturity w/ the belittling of my intelligence is staggering! I'm the supposed idiot, but you haven't offered a SINGLE rebuttal for what I've put forth! You refuse to ask for clarity and make wild assumptions about things you don't understand, and rely on treating me like I'm some sort of moron who hasn't studied this topic at all. Real mature.

Christ said the temple would be destroyed in the same generation that the abomination of desloation(desolator) takes place....SO you r saying this abomination happen years ago correct...

So from 70AD uintil know only covers one generation?????? Ridiculous.....

I have no idea what you're talking about here. The temple and the "abomination that causes desolation" BOTH occurred in 70 AD. Re-read my post! I never said anything about from 70 AD until now being only one generation. Where do you get this stuff from??

Christ also said that the generation would see the son of Man (Christ) SO according you you Christ Advent happen in the generation of 70AD......Please believe what you will,,,,if your brain isnt capable of seeing this GIANT error then its not much we can discuss.....

Exactly. Christ said to the Pharisees of the 1st century that THEY (not a future group) would see the son of Man coming on the clouds. Again, if you had any understanding of OT language and literary usage then you would understand that this is not a literal coming in on clouds, but it is the Son's coming in the sense of judgment (this is not THE 2nd coming, it is a second coming, but not the ultimate "2nd coming" that leads to Final Judgment).

Jesus also tells the Jewish leaders in Matt. 26:64 that THEY (that generation, 1st century) would see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God and coming on the clouds of heaven. Did he mean that a future generation would see this? Or that they would literally see the Son sitting in heaven? Your inserting an absurd use for grammar here. If I told my kids "they are going to Disney World" in November, then they would know that I was talking to them, not some future generation.

I know that most christians will not believe this garbage so im really not trippin,,,but I could simply ask a serious of questions that would present your err to everyone.....

Most Christians don't believe this "garbage"??? Ummm...some of the greatest Christian theologians of ALL time believed this "garbage" including John Calvin and St. Augustine. And by all means, ask a "serious question" that will expose my error to everyone! I'd love for you to do that since so far you've done absolutely NOTHING but ridicule me and avoid my questions. So, please (pretty please) engage the issues I've brought up, since I've answered EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR QUESTIONS.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Dude, seriously. Do you read ANYTHING that I've posted?? How old are you?? Your immaturity w/ the belittling of my intelligence is staggering! I'm the supposed idiot, but you haven't offered a SINGLE rebuttal for what I've put forth! You refuse to ask for clarity and make wild assumptions about things you don't understand, and rely on treating me like I'm some sort of moron who hasn't studied this topic at all. Real mature.

Christ said the temple would be destroyed in the same generation that the abomination of desloation(desolator) takes place....SO you r saying this abomination happen years ago correct...

So from 70AD uintil know only covers one generation?????? Ridiculous.....

I have no idea what you're talking about here. The temple and the "abomination that causes desolation" BOTH occurred in 70 AD. Re-read my post! I never said anything about from 70 AD until now being only one generation. Where do you get this stuff from??

[quote:35dc0e8r]Christ also said that the generation would see the son of Man (Christ) SO according you you Christ Advent happen in the generation of 70AD......Please believe what you will,,,,if your brain isnt capable of seeing this GIANT error then its not much we can discuss.....

Exactly. Christ said to the Pharisees of the 1st century that THEY (not a future group) would see the son of Man coming on the clouds. Again, if you had any understanding of OT language and literary usage then you would understand that this is not a literal coming in on clouds, but it is the Son's coming in the sense of judgment (this is not THE 2nd coming, it is a second coming, but not the ultimate "2nd coming" that leads to Final Judgment).

Jesus also tells the Jewish leaders in Matt. 26:64 that THEY (that generation, 1st century) would see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God and coming on the clouds of heaven. Did he mean that a future generation would see this? Or that they would literally see the Son sitting in heaven? Your inserting an absurd use for grammar here. If I told my kids "they are going to Disney World" in November, then they would know that I was talking to them, not some future generation.

I know that most christians will not believe this garbage so im really not trippin,,,but I could simply ask a serious of questions that would present your err to everyone.....

Most Christians don't believe this "garbage"??? Ummm...some of the greatest Christian theologians of ALL time believed this "garbage" including John Calvin and St. Augustine. And by all means, ask a "serious question" that will expose my error to everyone! I'd love for you to do that since so far you've done absolutely NOTHING but ridicule me and avoid my questions. So, please (pretty please) engage the issues I've brought up, since I've answered EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR QUESTIONS.[/quote:35dc0e8r]

Its because you say things like this

The temple and the "abomination that causes desolation" BOTH occurred in 70 AD.

How long is a generation ???????????

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Dude, seriously. Do you read ANYTHING that I've posted?? How old are you?? Your immaturity w/ the belittling of my intelligence is staggering! I'm the supposed idiot, but you haven't offered a SINGLE rebuttal for what I've put forth! You refuse to ask for clarity and make wild assumptions about things you don't understand, and rely on treating me like I'm some sort of moron who hasn't studied this topic at all. Real mature.

Christ said the temple would be destroyed in the same generation that the abomination of desloation(desolator) takes place....SO you r saying this abomination happen years ago correct...

So from 70AD uintil know only covers one generation?????? Ridiculous.....

I have no idea what you're talking about here. The temple and the "abomination that causes desolation" BOTH occurred in 70 AD. Re-read my post! I never said anything about from 70 AD until now being only one generation. Where do you get this stuff from??

[quote:307ufziq]Christ also said that the generation would see the son of Man (Christ) SO according you you Christ Advent happen in the generation of 70AD......Please believe what you will,,,,if your brain isnt capable of seeing this GIANT error then its not much we can discuss.....

Exactly. Christ said to the Pharisees of the 1st century that THEY (not a future group) would see the son of Man coming on the clouds. Again, if you had any understanding of OT language and literary usage then you would understand that this is not a literal coming in on clouds, but it is the Son's coming in the sense of judgment (this is not THE 2nd coming, it is a second coming, but not the ultimate "2nd coming" that leads to Final Judgment).

Jesus also tells the Jewish leaders in Matt. 26:64 that THEY (that generation, 1st century) would see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God and coming on the clouds of heaven. Did he mean that a future generation would see this? Or that they would literally see the Son sitting in heaven? Your inserting an absurd use for grammar here. If I told my kids "they are going to Disney World" in November, then they would know that I was talking to them, not some future generation.

[quote:307ufziq]I know that most christians will not believe this garbage so im really not trippin,,,but I could simply ask a serious of questions that would present your err to everyone.....

Most Christians don't believe this "garbage"??? Ummm...some of the greatest Christian theologians of ALL time believed this "garbage" including John Calvin and St. Augustine. And by all means, ask a "serious question" that will expose my error to everyone! I'd love for you to do that since so far you've done absolutely NOTHING but ridicule me and avoid my questions. So, please (pretty please) engage the issues I've brought up, since I've answered EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR QUESTIONS.[/quote:307ufziq][/quote:307ufziq]

Do you understand what the seals of revelation are????? DO you understand that Christ named these seals in Mark 13??????? SO by saying Mark 13 has taken place you are saying the seals of revelation has taken place....Which makes me believe you havent studied revelation or you simply dont understand...

When satan arrives on the earth,,,,he will play the role of Christ (antichrist) ,,,,He will stand in Jerusalem claiming to be Christ/God taking away the daily oblation.....

SO your saying satan has been kicked out of heaven to the earth already,,,,which means the antichrist and the mark of the beast is all over with......

You are also saying that the 2 witnesses have arrived and given there testomony and been killed already......

 

[RND]

May I?

When satan arrives on the earth,,,,he will play the role of Christ (antichrist) ,,,,He will stand in Jerusalem claiming to be Christ/God taking away the daily oblation.....

Rome has already done this by claiming that the Pope is God on earth.

"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".

“...We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty..." Pope Leo XIII, in Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae (The Reunion of Christendom), Encyclical promulgated on June 20, 1894.

The above quotes amount to great blasphemy against God and His Kingdom because there is nothing on earth that replaces the word of God, none stand in His stead.

SO your saying satan has been kicked out of heaven to the earth already,,,,which means the antichrist and the mark of the beast is all over with......

Question: If Satan was in the Garden of Eden tempting Adam and Eve wouldn't it be logical to conclude that he had already been kicked out of heaven?

You are also saying that the 2 witnesses have arrived and given there testomony and been killed already......

I suppose that depends on who or what one believes the "two witnesses" happen to be. I think clearly the "two witnesses" are the word of God, the old and new testaments and that during the Dark Ages they were essentially killed off.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Jeeez man the AOD is not about someone claiming anything,,,,,,,Its about satan standing in Jerusalem saying he is Jesus Christ.....Im no Catholic but lets not just slander people here,,,,,the pope has never stood up infront of the world and said he is Jesus Christ and we know longer need to take communion in remeberance of Christ,,,because he has retuned..... I would be more then happy to go back to Daniel and show you what the AOD is.....

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

SO are you going to say this has already taken place......a short time huh,,,I guess you figure 2000 years to be short.....


Again Im thinking your not to familiar with revelation.....

SO I guess the witnesses dead bodys have ascended back into heaven in front of the whole world,,,,well please tell me who these witnesses were,,,,if they have already came an gone who were they...

 

[RND]

Jeeez man the AOD is not about someone claiming anything,,,,,,,Its about satan standing in Jerusalem saying he is Jesus Christ.....Im no Catholic but lets not just slander people here,,,,,

No slander. The RCC proudly states that the Pope is "God on earth." Those aren't my words they belong to the RCC. It claims to sit in the seat of God. Clearly it does not.

the pope has never stood up infront of the world and said he is Jesus Christ and we know longer need to take communion in remeberance of Christ,,,because he has retuned.....

The RCC claims, as you can see from the quotes I offered that the Pope is God on earth.

I would be more then happy to go back to Daniel and show you what the AOD is.....

The AOD is no doubt the spirit of antichrist.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

SO are you going to say this has already taken place......a short time huh,,,I guess you figure 2000 years to be short.....

Satan has been on earth since it's creation. The fact that he was in the garden should be enough evidence that he couldn't be in heaven and in the garden of Eden at the same time.

BTW, since God is outside of the concept of time 2,000 years is a drop in the ocean of time.

Again Im thinking your not to familiar with revelation.....

I'm very familiar with the book. You do understand it's chiastic nature right?

SO I guess the witnesses dead bodys have ascended back into heaven in front of the whole world

Does it say anything about these so called bodies ascending to heaven anywhere in Revelation?

,,,,well please tell me who these witnesses were,,,,if they have already came an gone who were they...

I already did. They are the Old and New Testaments.