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Speaking of mutations, I came across this recently in Darwin-watch. (http://www.darwinism-watch.com/index.php?git=makale&makale_id=2048)

It has a lot to say about the subject, and shows quite clearly that they cannot produce anything new.

I was particularly interested in their remarks about the production of antibiotic resistance.

> > The invalidity of the famous Darwinist claim that ''useful mutations do exist.''

The false idea that useful mutations exist is a classic Darwinist claim.

Although the whole scientific world knows, with absolute scientific evidence, that mutations have a destructive or fatal effect, this claim is still persistently made, out of a fear of humiliation. Because Darwinism is a theory that depends totally on mutations.

All Darwinists know that if the destructive effect were to be mentioned just once, that would spell the end of Darwinism. It is for that reason they try to give the impression, citing invalid and utterly pitiful examples, that mutations can be beneficial.

But this is a complete deception. - As we have set out many times before, mutations have a net harmful effect, with only 1% being neutral, though the latest scientific research has shown that even these can produce long-term damage in the organism.[1]

The net harmful effect of mutations is not a psychological defense mechanism, but an explicit truth revealed by science. - If Darwinists object to this, then they are directly flying in the face of science. Because this is not a matter of opinion, but an absolute scientific fact. - It is impossible for mutations to bestow any useful characteristic.

Under normal conditions, everything in a living body exhibits complete regularity, order and symmetry. In addition, these systems co-exist with the most delicate balances and exhibit a glorious complexity right down to the finest detail.

Mutations are random interventions, such as with radiation, and mean breakages, impairments and dislocations.

They INEVITABLY DAMAGE these extraordinarily complex systems, with their regularity, symmetry and order. It is illogical and a violation of science to maintain anything else. -

The results at Chernobyl, Nagasaki and Hiroshima were all the results of mutations. Under the effect of mutations, organisms with regular structures either died or suffered severe damage, and this harmful effect even manifested itself in subsequent generations.

Darwinists generally cite various examples of immunity in order to try to corroborate their claims that “beneficial mutations do exist.” But these examples all consist of a variation or impairment in bacteria or immune cells. -

Sometimes, a dislocation in a single DNA nucleotide, or base, can bestow immunity to an antibiotic on a micro-organism. But although this may be useful to the micro-organism, IT IS NOT A BENEFICIAL MUTATION.

Because the mutation in question has actually harmed the micro-organism.

The ribosome sequence belonging to the micro-organism has been impaired, and it prevents the antibiotic binding to the organism by damaging the lock and key harmony.

In other words, rather than there being any novelty in the micro-organism, we are looking at a loss of information. -

Mutations are literally like firing at a regular structure with a machine gun. Opening fire on a healthy structure will entirely do away with that structure.

The fact that one bullet has no effect or destroys an existing infection in the body changes nothing. The organism will already have been killed by the other 99 bullets hitting it. -

The example that Darwinists cite with such examples is like a bullet healing the body by destroying a single infection. The organism is devastated by mutations, but Darwinists concentrate on the one that heals this infection. -

Since the subject of mutations constitutes one of the most damaging points for Darwinists, they engage in demagoguery by depicting minor instances of variation or the effects examined above as major evidence.

The fact is, however, that the adherents of evolution, who maintain that all living things acquired their present symmetrical and complex structures by way of evolution, have to be able to cite examples of mutations that take place one after the other and are all beneficial, and that also bestow new information on the organism. -

What is more, Darwinists also have to provide evidence for the scenario of one living thing’s physiology turning into that of another life form through mutation at the macro level.

BUT THEY CANNOT EVEN CONTEMPLATE PRODUCING SUCH EVIDENCE.

Because as they know full well, mutations destroy and ruin and occasionally entirely destroy the organism concerned. -

In addition, we need to make the following point very clear: mutations can never bestow any new data on an organism that is not already in its genome. That is impossible.

The examples alleged to have “added new information” are all misleading. No new genetic information is ever added. All that happens is that information already existing in a living thing’s genes starts to be used by becoming more visible as a result of variations. -

Breaks and dislocations in the bases that make up DNA CAN NEVER PRODUCE NEW INFORMATION. They do not equate to information that did not already exist being bestowed on a living thing.

Darwinists are without doubt well aware of this. But they insist on depicting dislocations in genetic bases as new data. This is an example of Darwinist demagoguery.
 
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Barbarian

I have to ask you a question here, since you have thrown me completely by your statements 1. that you are a Christian, and 2. believe in God (as per your previous post).

Dawkins can see as well as anyone that those positions and belief in evolution are incompatible, and in fact pours scorn on such people.

How do you square the two things, given the fact that the logical conclusion of a belief in evolution is atheism?
 
Asyncriticus:

How about: Gene duplication and then the mutation of that duplicated gene. How does that not introduce new information into a genome?
 
I have to ask you a question here, since you have thrown me completely by your statements 1. that you are a Christian, and 2. believe in God (as per your previous post).

Dawkins can see as well as anyone that those positions and belief in evolution are incompatible,

Being a Christian, I'm aware that Dawkins shares the need of some creationists to make reality and Christianity incompatible. Not accepting either belief, it makes no difference to me.

How do you square the two things, given the fact that the logical conclusion of a belief in evolution is atheism?

In that regard at least, atheism and creationism are compatible. There can be no incompatibility between God and His creation.
 
I didn't know there were still creationists who doubted that favorable mutations exist. There are quite a number of those having been directly observed. Want to learn about some of them?
 
How about: Gene duplication and then the mutation of that duplicated gene. How does that not introduce new information into a genome?

Actually, any new mutation produces new information into the population. I can show you the numbers if you like.
 
Barbarian

I have to ask you a question here, since you have thrown me completely by your statements 1. that you are a Christian, and 2. believe in God (as per your previous post).

Dawkins can see as well as anyone that those positions and belief in evolution are incompatible, and in fact pours scorn on such people.

How do you square the two things, given the fact that the logical conclusion of a belief in evolution is atheism?
This is incorrect. It is a common argument by both atheists and theists but is quite wrong and misleading. Evolution and Christianity are not mutually exclusive.
 

In that regard at least, atheism and creationism are compatible.
There can be no incompatibility between God and His creation.

You need to explain this a bit further, as I'm not clear about what you mean.
 
Actually, any new mutation produces new information into the population. I can show you the numbers if you like.

Sure. Let's see some.

But remember, we are really looking for the mutations to produce new species, genera and higher taxons.

If you can do that, you're a better man than Dawkins.
 
No.



Doesn't happen by chance. Natural selection is the antithesis of chance.



It's easy to show that evolutionary processes lead to higher fitness. Would you like to see?
i am far more familiar with evolution since our first debate

the problem for you is this.

you would agree that God is being of order

and has set forth laws of nature that can be violated,

so why would god then use something so gradual that violates said laws?

ie

occams razor
laws of parsimony

one mutation in the genes that are related to brain we get down syndrome. and thats not counting other mutations that are often either neutral or deadly or inbetween.


next you make God sound like a cruel being in that he purposed death so that man could be perfect in the flesh.

i wouldnt buy a car that when i bought it i would be told i better watch the tires then tend to come loose.

God didnt intend for life for man to suffer. sin has consequences. so if jesus didnt die on the cross my question for you would he being the god/man would get sick?

did he get sick? remember he a hungered, he a thirsted.
 
You need to explain this a bit further, as I'm not clear about what you mean.

Ideologically, creationists and atheists tend to want to make God and evolution mutually exclusive. Not all of them, of course. But a lot of them.
 
Asyncriticus:

How about: Gene duplication and then the mutation of that duplicated gene. How does that not introduce new information into a genome?

If it is genuinely gene 'DUPLICATION' then there is no new information being introduced - merely a duplicate of existng material.

If a mutation follows, which as agreed is 99% destructive, then no new information can be introduced.

The further problem which you have to consider, is that a single mutation, if indeed it were possible to introduce a new characteristic of any significance, would require countless other consequential changes in the structure, and physiology of the organism.

For example, a normal twining plant, to become a parasitic plant such as Cuscuta would require enormous alterations in its physiology and anatomy.

A single mutation couldn't do it, and I'm fairly sure a thousand wouldn't either.
 
I fail to see how that 1% change, that is not destructive, cannot result in new information.

As above shown the so-called 'beneficial' mutations have never resulted in new species or any higher taxa.

If you have information to the contrary, please let us hear it.
 
Ideologically, creationists and atheists tend to want to make God and evolution mutually exclusive. Not all of them, of course. But a lot of them.

http://www.gospelway.com/creation/evolution_consequences.php

Huxley: "It is clear that the doctrine of Evolution is directly antagonistic to that of creation, ... Evolution if consistently applied, makes it impossible to believe the Bible."

Charles Smith, former president of the American Association for the Advancement of Atheism, said: "Evolution is atheism." (Evolution: Science False So-Called, 16th Ed., p. 87).

Woolsey Teller, also of AAAA, said: "The God idea cannot be reconciled with our knowledge of evolution." (Evolution: Science False So-Called, 16th Ed., p. 87).

G. M. Price said: "It is thus very evident that there is no similarity between the idea of Evolution and that of Creation; it is all contrast. The two terms are antonyms; they are mutually exclusive; no mind can entertain a belief in both at the same time; when one notion is believed, the other is thereby denied and repudiated." (HRQ, p. 63)

Higley said: "Theistic evolution, then, is a contradiction of terms. To maintain that evolution can be theistic is as inconsistent as to claim that falsehood can be true."

After reading Darwin and Spencer, Andrew Carnegie said: "I remember that light came as in a flood and all was clear. Not only had I got rid of theology and the supernatural, but I had found the truth of evolution." (Davidheiser, p. 350f)

In his biography of Joseph Stalin published by the Russian communists, Yaroslavsky says that, at an early age, Stalin "began to read Darwin and became an atheist."

Later Stalin told a friend: "'I'll lend you a book to read; it will show you that ... all this talk about God is sheer nonsense'... 'What book is that?' I inquired. 'Darwin. You must read it,' Joseph impressed on me." (Davidheiser, p. 353)

A Russian communist newspaper once explained that they did not need to teach atheism directly in their schools. The could accomplish the same purpose by teaching "the foundations of Darwinism." (HRQ, p. 63)

These quotes clearly show that evolution is a fundamental tenet of unbelief, and that evolution has led many people to become unbelievers. Furthermore, atheists themselves agree that you cannot truly believe in evolution and in the Bible at the same time.

I suggest you've got some serious thinking to do here, Barbarian.
 
http://www.gospelway.com/creation/evolution_consequences.php

Huxley: "It is clear that the doctrine of Evolution is directly antagonistic to that of creation, ... Evolution if consistently applied, makes it impossible to believe the Bible."

Charles Smith, former president of the American Association for the Advancement of Atheism, said: "Evolution is atheism." (Evolution: Science False So-Called, 16th Ed., p. 87).

Woolsey Teller, also of AAAA, said: "The God idea cannot be reconciled with our knowledge of evolution." (Evolution: Science False So-Called, 16th Ed., p. 87).

G. M. Price said: "It is thus very evident that there is no similarity between the idea of Evolution and that of Creation; it is all contrast. The two terms are antonyms; they are mutually exclusive; no mind can entertain a belief in both at the same time; when one notion is believed, the other is thereby denied and repudiated." (HRQ, p. 63)

Higley said: "Theistic evolution, then, is a contradiction of terms. To maintain that evolution can be theistic is as inconsistent as to claim that falsehood can be true."

After reading Darwin and Spencer, Andrew Carnegie said: "I remember that light came as in a flood and all was clear. Not only had I got rid of theology and the supernatural, but I had found the truth of evolution." (Davidheiser, p. 350f)


In his biography of Joseph Stalin published by the Russian communists, Yaroslavsky says that, at an early age, Stalin "began to read Darwin and became an atheist."



Later Stalin told a friend: "'I'll lend you a book to read; it will show you that ... all this talk about God is sheer nonsense'... 'What book is that?' I inquired. 'Darwin. You must read it,' Joseph impressed on me." (Davidheiser, p. 353)


A Russian communist newspaper once explained that they did not need to teach atheism directly in their schools. The could accomplish the same purpose by teaching "the foundations of Darwinism." (HRQ, p. 63)


These quotes clearly show that evolution is a fundamental tenet of unbelief, and that evolution has led many people to become unbelievers. Furthermore, atheists themselves agree that you cannot truly believe in evolution and in the Bible at the same time.


I suggest you've got some serious thinking to do here, Barbarian.
On the contrary, such quotes only show what some believe to be the case but what is not necessarily the case. You are proposing a false dichotomy, which I have mentioned to you several times. It is a popular dichotomy, as you have just shown, but false nonetheless.
 
Barbarian observes:
Ideologically, creationists and atheists tend to want to make God and evolution mutually exclusive. Not all of them, of course. But a lot of them.

(Asyncritus gives numerous examples, supporting Barbarian's observation)

I suggest you've got some serious thinking to do here, Barbarian.

Don't you meant that you've got some serious thinking to do? If you're lining up with all these atheists, isn't that a tip-off in itself?
 
(Barbarian offers to demonstrate how new mutations produce new information in a population)

Sure. Let's see some.

Let's take a simple example. Suppose in a population, there is a gene with two different alleles. That means that the total information of that gene is:

a2f05485301595188046d986c8cdd705.png


Or about 0.30. I'm assuming that two alleles are equally distributed, but if you like, I can show that it works if they are not. Now, suppose that another mutation occurs, and soon there are three equally-distributed alleles. The information is now about 0.48. An increase.

Another example:

Nat Genet. 2002 Apr;30(4):411-5. Epub 2002 Mar 4.
Adaptive evolution of a duplicated pancreatic ribonuclease gene in a leaf-eating monkey.
Here we use both computational and experimental approaches to address these questions in a study of the pancreatic ribonuclease gene (RNASE1) and its duplicate gene (RNASE1B) in a leaf-eating colobine monkey, douc langur. We show that RNASE1B has evolved rapidly under positive selection for enhanced ribonucleolytic activity in an altered microenvironment, a response to increased demands for the enzyme for digesting bacterial RNA. At the same time, the ability to degrade double-stranded RNA, a non-digestive activity characteristic of primate RNASE1, has been lost in RNASE1B, indicating functional specialization and relaxation of purifying selection. Our findings demonstrate the contribution of gene duplication to organismal adaptation and show the power of combining sequence analysis and functional assays in delineating the molecular basis of adaptive evolution.


But remember, we are really looking for the mutations to produce new species, genera and higher taxons.

First one I know having been directly observed was O. gigas from O. lamarkania, following a polyploidy mutation.

There are also gradual ones, the first of those being observed back in the 30s, in fruit flies.

DROSOPHILA MIRANDA, A NEW SPECIES
TH. DOBZHANSKY
California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, California
Received January 30, 1935

http://www.genetics.org/content/20/4/377.full.pdf

Higher taxa tend to take longer than a human lifetime to observe, but note that the Institute for Creation Research says that new species, genera, and families evolve. (per John Woodmorrap's "Noah's Ark; A Feasibility Study")
 
On the contrary, such quotes only show what some believe to be the case but what is not necessarily the case. You are proposing a false dichotomy, which I have mentioned to you several times. It is a popular dichotomy, as you have just shown, but false nonetheless.

Sure - but you are also proposing that I accept Barbarian's statement, aren't you?

Now these guys like Stalin, seem to have the wrong idea, do they? You got any proof?
 

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