Miracle Or Hoax?

[VirginShallConceive]

A young girl supposedly broke her arm. During a worship service, Jesus supposedly came down and healed her arm. The mother of the girl gives a testimony, along with showing before and after x-ray photos.

I say that it is a hoax.

What do you think?


"A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish." -Proverbs 19:9



[video=youtube;9MNF1BPDwE4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MNF1BPDwE4[/video]

 

[Claudya]

That church looks creepy. :shocked!

But it'd be awesome if the testimony is true, and I believe Jesus can do what they say He did with the girl's arm. But showing two x-ray images on a youtube video is little proof (we have no way to tell whether both images are the same arm and what time was inbetween them, also the two red circles don't seem to be in the same spot of the bone). Asking the girl for an affirmation for something her mom enthusiastically claims to be true is not proof either. That poor girl looked so frightened and shy on stage.

I wish the testimony was true, but I'm inclined to think it's a hoax. Or wishfull thinking of mommy, girl, and their church.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

That church looks creepy. :shocked!

But it'd be awesome if the testimony is true, and I believe Jesus can do what they say He did with the girl's arm. But showing two x-ray images on a youtube video is little proof (we have no way to tell whether both images are the same arm and what time was inbetween them, also the two red circles don't seem to be in the same spot of the bone). Asking the girl for an affirmation for something her mom enthusiastically claims to be true is not proof either. That poor girl looked so frightened and shy on stage.

I wish the testimony was true, but I'm inclined to think it's a hoax. Or wishfull thinking of mommy, girl, and their church.

Thank you for contributing to the discussion, Claudya. I still miss your old avatar!

 

[Guest]

It's the power of prayer, faith and healing. If you believe the healing is a hoax then, you lack faith..

Mark 2:1-12 And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house. 2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them. 3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. 4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.


6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? 8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? 9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. 12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

 

[ezra]

its is possible can the service we are seeing be a hoax? yes we have no way of knowing..but healing is still there in the name of Jesus.

 

[reba]

Broken bones heal at different rates, depending on the age of the child and the type of fracture. Certain fractures in young kids can heal as quickly as 3 weeks, while it may take as long as 6 weeks for the same kind of fracture to heal in teens. And some fractures can take as long as 10 weeks to heal.

This was a 'crack' not a "break" I believe I heard the mom say it was about 2 weeks ago.... The service is not in order . I have known folks with divine healing.

 

[Obadiah]

I too have seen divine healing where serious injuries such as a broken bone was instantly and completely healed, AND it was verified the very next day by secular doctors who stated they have no rational explanation for the healing. So yes, it CAN happen. But did it happen in this case?

Gee, I just came from a thread about skepticism, and I think this is a time for skepticism! Far too many of these showy, self glorifying "faith healers" who get rich putting on these big dramatic shows have been proven to be fakes, and those who have been healed have been exposed as fakes planted by the team of people who put on the big show. This video has all the signs of fakery. To claim that anyone who questions this only questions it because they have no faith is acting foolishly.

When Jesus lived in his physical body on earth and healed people he never did it in a huge showy way like these modern day "faith healers" do. He never purposely attracted a huge crowd in the tens of thousands and told people to bring all their sick and wounded (as well as their offering money) so that he could heal them. He never worked a crowd up into a big frenzy, playing on the emotions of people to make them believe and not question what he was doing. These kind of things are known psychological tactics to mask the deception and make people believe it's real even when it isn't.

What about the theology involved in Jesus coming down to earth to heal this girl and then returning to heaven? I don't know for sure on this, but I THINK it's the Holy Spirit that does this in our time, not Jesus returning to earth to do it Himself then returning to heaven again. Is this possibly false theology?

As Claudya and Reba pointed out there are other inconsistencies in the story as well.

When I witnessed God heal a person with a similar ailment to the little girl, it was very real and I know it because I was personally involved (yes, I was the elder who laid on hands and anointed with oil, but I take NO CREDIT for anything as I know it was only about God and nothing to do with me.) It was also verified by doctors the very next day as having no other explanation. Yet all the glory went only to God for what happened. There was no big show to glorify me or anyone else that was there. There were multiple witnesses that all new each other well, and knew the person that was healed well too, so we know the injury was not faked. There was no question that the healing was instant and complete because a person that couldn't walk suddenly stood up and was able to not only walk, but to even run as if he'd never been injured in the first place. But yet there was no big show, no money made by any of us, nothing other than the faith of the person asking to be healed and the laying on of hands with the anointing of oil as instructed in James. And, oh yeah, no one present had ever done anything like this before either.

So from my point of view, yes, I feel what the video is portraying has the possibility of being real because God indeed does have the power to heal and does still do this today. But I am very skeptical that this particular case is real because of what I and some others have said above.

 

[turnorburn]

Is this the same Todd Bentley that talks to an angel name Emma? The same Todd Bentley that stated that Jesus told him preaching the gospel was old school and that we all needed to move on? The same Todd Bentley that stated that gold dust was being sent to us from heaven? The same Todd Bentley that divorced his wife to marry his secretary? Are we seriously going to give this guy another look?

tob

 

[Guest]

Well, I don't know much about what the OP story is about, but I do know that Jesus heals.

Tough crowd.

 

[Obadiah]

Is this the same Todd Bentley that talks to an angel name Emma? The same Todd Bentley that stated that Jesus told him preaching the gospel was old school and that we all needed to move on? The same Todd Bentley that stated that gold dust was being sent to us from heaven? The same Todd Bentley that divorced his wife to marry his secretary? Are we seriously going to give this guy another look?

tob

I didn't even know his name because I follow these people's dramatic shows even less than I follow Jerry Springer! But yeah if what you describe is who this guy is, thanks for verifying why I feel skeptical!

 

[Obadiah]

Well, I don't know much about what the OP story is about, but I do know that Jesus heals.

Tough crowd.

Well to say that God heals is absolutely correct. I just wish you wouldn't accuse those of us who question this particular event of being faithless, especially when by your own admission you don't even know very much about it.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Is this the same Todd Bentley that talks to an angel name Emma? The same Todd Bentley that stated that Jesus told him preaching the gospel was old school and that we all needed to move on? The same Todd Bentley that stated that gold dust was being sent to us from heaven? The same Todd Bentley that divorced his wife to marry his secretary? Are we seriously going to give this guy another look?

tob

Hi, TurnOrBurn!

I would just like to also point out that this incident with the little girl's broken arm was just as much of a hoax before we found out those things that you mentioned above. Take away all of the information that you mentioned above, and this "miracle" still possesses the same amount of foolery.

This is food for thought for the next time you witness a "miracle" performed by or claimed to have been witnessed by a preacher whose skeletons have yet to come out of the closet.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

A young girl supposedly broke her arm. During a worship service, Jesus supposedly came down and healed her arm. The mother of the girl gives a testimony, along with showing before and after x-ray photos.

I say that it is a hoax.

What do you think?


"A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish." -Proverbs 19:9



[video=youtube;9MNF1BPDwE4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MNF1BPDwE4[/video]

Doing a case study on whether or not this particular event is a miracle or a hoax doesn't accomplish much in my opinion.

1. We can't see their hearts, one simply has to either presume they are telling the truth or lying based on what they already believe.
2. Nothing in the video looks purposefully manipulated or designed to fool people, these people likely love the Lord and I doubt that they would use the injury of their daughter to fool people (noting that they would have had to get an x-ray of a healthy 6 year old arm in order to fool us). This of course assuming that we can know their intentions.. we cannot.

Again.. what does SCRIPTURE have to say..

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Hi, Doulos!

Thank you for contributing to the discussion.

Doing a case study on whether or not this particular event is a miracle or a hoax doesn't accomplish much in my opinion.

I agree that this event alone isn't as good as evaluating a collection of one hundred similar events, but we have to start somewhere. We have already had some good posts from members explaining why or why not they believe this claim or why they might be undecided. Also, I'm sure this isn't the first miracle claim presented to any of our post contributors.

1. We can't see their hearts, one simply has to either presume they are telling the truth or lying based on what they already believe.

I'm not so sure about this. We have already had at least two posters say that they have witnessed miracles, but they are skeptical of this particular claim.

2. Nothing in the video looks purposefully manipulated or designed to fool people, these people likely love the Lord and I doubt that they would use the injury of their daughter to fool people (noting that they would have had to get an x-ray of a healthy 6 year old arm in order to fool us). This of course assuming that we can know their intentions.. we cannot.

Well, I can.

Again.. what does SCRIPTURE have to say..

If we could use scripture to decipher if someone is lying or not, we would never be successfully lied to again.


Nevertheless, once again, here is some scripture:

"A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish." -Proverbs 19:9

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hi, Doulos!

Thank you for contributing to the discussion.

No problem!

I agree that this event alone isn't as good as evaluating a collection of one hundred similar events, but we have to start somewhere. We have already had some good posts from members explaining why or why not they believe this claim or why they might be undecided. Also, I'm sure this isn't the first miracle claim presented to any of our post contributors.

Question for you.. let's make it a hypothetical question.

If God promised and explicitly said this, "For all time, if men have faith of a mustard seed they can fly where ever they please." Yet, no one since had flown would you either a) Doubt God's Word, or b) Doubt that anyone actually believed the promise?

I'm not so sure about this. We have already had at least two posters say that they have witnessed miracles, but they are skeptical of this particular claim.

I have witnessed miracles too, but I don't go around assuming people are liars especially when they call Jesus Lord.

Well, I can.

You can know their inner intentions? So you do believe in the miraculous gifts! lol

If we could use scripture to decipher if someone is lying or not, we would never be successfully lied to again.


Nevertheless, once again, here is some scripture:

"A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish." -Proverbs 19:9

I am asking what Scripture actually says on the matter of the Spiritual gifts, you however have affirmed that all the Scripture in the world couldn't convince you.

Sad...

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Question for you.. let's make it a hypothetical question.

If God promised and explicitly said this, "For all time, if men have faith of a mustard seed they can fly where ever they please." Yet, no one since had flown would you either a) Doubt God's Word, or b) Doubt that anyone actually believed the promise?

Well . . . more likely c) Doubt that it was God's Word, and more likely attribute it to some vandal in the century or three after the original scripture was comprised, or d) Leave open the possibility that it is God's Word, and I just haven't yet "cracked the code" of its meaning.

I have witnessed miracles too, but I don't go around assuming people are liars especially when they call Jesus Lord.

Keep in mind that the words "Jesus" or "Lord" aren't magical truth detectors. It's not like a liar, when trying to utter the words "Jesus" or "Lord", is unable to do so because he/she is lying, and those words have a force-field around them that make them unable to be spoken by liars.

Well, I can.

You can know their inner intentions? So you do believe in the miraculous gifts! lol

LOL!

If we could use scripture to decipher if someone is lying or not, we would never be successfully lied to again.


Nevertheless, once again, here is some scripture:

"A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish." -Proverbs 19:9

I am asking what Scripture actually says on the matter of the Spiritual gifts, you however have affirmed that all the Scripture in the world couldn't convince you.

Sad...

Sad indeed.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Well . . . more likely c) Doubt that it was God's Word, and more likely attribute it to some vandal in the century or three after the original scripture was comprised, or d) Leave open the possibility that it is God's Word, and I just haven't yet "cracked the code" of its meaning.

Fair enough, that's sufficient for me.

Keep in mind that the words "Jesus" or "Lord" aren't magical truth detectors. It's not like a liar, when trying to utter the words "Jesus" or "Lord", is unable to do so because he/she is lying, and those words have a force-field around them that make them unable to be spoken by liars.

Let me offer an example to explain what I am meaning.

Let's say for the sake of this example that you are married (don't know if you are or aren't), generally you love the person you are married to. Correct? When you encounter someone you love do you come with a skeptical mind and doubt their intentions, if indeed they are telling the truth. No, love always trusts (believes all things) and indeed to be in a love relationship founded on doubt and suspicion is no love at all really.

In the same way, we are to love those who are brothers, who claim Jesus as Lord and proclaim his gospel, how then can we love them if at every turn we doubt and come with a presumption of suspicion. While, a hermenutic of suspicion might be popular in this post enlightenment world, it must be tempered with love of the Biblical sort.

LOL!

Gotcha!

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Keep in mind that the words "Jesus" or "Lord" aren't magical truth detectors. It's not like a liar, when trying to utter the words "Jesus" or "Lord", is unable to do so because he/she is lying, and those words have a force-field around them that make them unable to be spoken by liars.

Let me offer an example to explain what I am meaning.

Let's say for the sake of this example that you are married (don't know if you are or aren't), generally you love the person you are married to. Correct? When you encounter someone you love do you come with a skeptical mind and doubt their intentions, if indeed they are telling the truth. No, love always trusts (believes all things) and indeed to be in a love relationship founded on doubt and suspicion is no love at all really.

In the same way, we are to love those who are brothers, who claim Jesus as Lord and proclaim his gospel, how then can we love them if at every turn we doubt and come with a presumption of suspicion. While, a hermenutic of suspicion might be popular in this post enlightenment world, it must be tempered with love of the Biblical sort.

Well, for me, that's not the way it is. The way I approach any person depends on my experience in dealing with different individuals as well as my experience with that particular individual. If every married person in the world took your "across-the-board" advice, and applied it to the one they love, many of them would certainly find your advice to be terribly flawed. In actuality, if their spouse is cheating on them, or planning on murdering them for insurance money, your advice could actually prolong their ignorance of what's really going on.


Me, I am married and do trust my wife with serious matters. I just have to keep on her about not spending money on things that we don't need. :toofunny

I guess that's where the hypocrisy seeps in because she sometimes has to do the same with me. :toofunny

It's actually a lot like ChristianForums.net. When she catches me not practicing what I preach, I have to concede the point to at least retain some integrity. :toofunny




But seriously, I've been around long enough to see a surprising end to some long relationships. Perhaps you have been surprised as well.

Under the same token, if you want to trust every "brother" who claims that Jesus is Lord, be my guest. I just hope that you can understand why I don't.

 

[Obadiah]

Doing a case study on whether or not this particular event is a miracle or a hoax doesn't accomplish much in my opinion.

Exposing, not tolerating, and doing what we can to stop spiritual quackery (if that's what this is) contributes to verifying the validity of scripture, therefore helping non-christians to believe more readily when we preach the gospel to them. In my opinion that is accomplishing a lot.

1. We can't see their hearts, one simply has to either presume they are telling the truth or lying based on what they already believe.

Or based on what they (we) see with our own eyes and can discern with our common sense and knowledge. We are commanded in scripture to "Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Testing all things and holding fast to what is good necessarily involves discerning and rejecting what is bad!

2. Nothing in the video looks purposefully manipulated or designed to fool people...

Actually, if you were aware of the tactics that have been developed and used by modern day false prophets (including false healers) you would see much in this video that is the same as those tactics that are purposely manipulated and designed to fool people. These tactics have been well exposed and documented.

...these people likely love the Lord and I doubt that they would use the injury of their daughter to fool people...

It is a well verified and exposed trick to plant actors (many times with props) in these "healing" events to make the healer look valid and lead people astray from the truth of God. Why? Because they make a lot of money and they enjoy the feeling of fame and power it gives them. Satan uses these tricks to convince people that miraculous instantaneous healing is far more common than it really is. Now a Christian who believes them is much more susceptible to the doubts Satan creates in their minds when their own ailment isn't healed by a miracle.

...these people likely love the Lord and I doubt that they would use the injury of their daughter to fool people (noting that they would have had to get an x-ray of a healthy 6 year old arm in order to fool us).

Do you know them personally? How can you determine they "love the Lord" if you are not in a place to know them personally and see if they demonstrate any of the "fruit of the spirit" by which we are told we will know Christians? Based on the video clip how can you even know if the girl was ever injured in the first place, or if she is even really their daughter? How can you determine they are not paid actors hired by the big money making organizations that put on these shows? (This is only one of many tactics used that have been exposed and that you are apparently unaware of.)

As for the x-rays, why is it so unbelievable that the organizers of these events could provide x-rays as props? Haven't you ever seen a fictional TV show with actors and props such as this? As one person pointed out already, the two x-rays don't even indicate the same place on the bones! Not to mention that there is absolutely no indication other than the word of the mother (actress, perhaps?) that either x-ray is even of the girl in question. This isn't even very good fakery!

...Again.. what does SCRIPTURE have to say..

Again.. SCRIPTURE says: "Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Satan uses these tricks to convince people that miraculous instantaneous healing is far more common than it really is. Now a Christian who believes them is much more susceptible to the doubts Satan creates in their minds when their own ailment isn't healed by a miracle.