Miracle Or Hoax?

[Rollo Tamasi]

I agree that this event alone isn't as good as evaluating a collection of one hundred similar events, but we have to start somewhere. We have already had some good posts from members explaining why or why not they believe this claim or why they might be undecided. Also, I'm sure this isn't the first miracle claim presented to any of our post contributors.

Hi VirginShallConceive,

I have in a previous post in a previously thread testified to you of a miracle I witnessed and you simply refuse to believe it.
Why is it so important to you to prove everyone else is wrong?
If you can somehow prove that this video is a fake, all it will do is build a bigger wall between you and the truth.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Hi, AllenWynne!

Hi VirginShallConceive,

I have in a previous post in a previously thread testified to you of a miracle I witnessed and you simply refuse to believe it.
Why is it so important to you to prove everyone else is wrong?
If you can somehow prove that this video is a fake, all it will do is build a bigger wall between you and the truth.

I will let Obadiah answer this one.

Satan uses these tricks to convince people that miraculous instantaneous healing is far more common than it really is. Now a Christian who believes them is much more susceptible to the doubts Satan creates in their minds when their own ailment isn't healed by a miracle.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi, AllenWynne!

Hi VirginShallConceive,

I have in a previous post in a previously thread testified to you of a miracle I witnessed and you simply refuse to believe it.
Why is it so important to you to prove everyone else is wrong?
If you can somehow prove that this video is a fake, all it will do is build a bigger wall between you and the truth.

I will let Obadiah answer this one.

Satan uses these tricks to convince people that miraculous instantaneous healing is far more common than it really is. Now a Christian who believes them is much more susceptible to the doubts Satan creates in their minds when their own ailment isn't healed by a miracle.

Hmm, satan cured this woman of cancer miraculously so he could fool me...

Hmm, guess what? It didn't work!

All it did was build my faith in God.

You know, that doesn't make sense.
I pray to God for healing and satan answers my prayer and heals her.
I think you really have things backwards.

 

[Guest]

Well to say that God heals is absolutely correct. I just wish you wouldn't accuse those of us who question this particular event of being faithless, especially when by your own admission you don't even know very much about it.

I apologize, and you're right.

 

[P31Woman]

Hi, AllenWynne!

Hi VirginShallConceive,

I have in a previous post in a previously thread testified to you of a miracle I witnessed and you simply refuse to believe it.
Why is it so important to you to prove everyone else is wrong?
If you can somehow prove that this video is a fake, all it will do is build a bigger wall between you and the truth.

I will let Obadiah answer this one.

Satan uses these tricks to convince people that miraculous instantaneous healing is far more common than it really is. Now a Christian who believes them is much more susceptible to the doubts Satan creates in their minds when their own ailment isn't healed by a miracle.

Hmm, satan cured this woman of cancer miraculously so he could fool me...

Hmm, guess what? It didn't work!

All it did was build my faith in God.

You know, that doesn't make sense.
I pray to God for healing and satan answers my prayer and heals her.
I think you really have things backwards.

This reminds me of something in the gospels

 

[Obadiah]

Hi, AllenWynne!

Hi VirginShallConceive,

I have in a previous post in a previously thread testified to you of a miracle I witnessed and you simply refuse to believe it.
Why is it so important to you to prove everyone else is wrong?
If you can somehow prove that this video is a fake, all it will do is build a bigger wall between you and the truth.

I will let Obadiah answer this one.

Satan uses these tricks to convince people that miraculous instantaneous healing is far more common than it really is. Now a Christian who believes them is much more susceptible to the doubts Satan creates in their minds when their own ailment isn't healed by a miracle.

Hmm, satan cured this woman of cancer miraculously so he could fool me...

Hmm, guess what? It didn't work!

All it did was build my faith in God.

You know, that doesn't make sense.
I pray to God for healing and satan answers my prayer and heals her.
I think you really have things backwards.

Did you even watch this video or read the posts about it before you disagreed? It has nothing to do with a woman being healed of cancer nor does it have anything to do with Satan healing anyone. It is about a woman's daughter purportedly being healed of a broken arm. Your response almost sounds like it is taking my statements and others about this particular incident and saying we are wrong because they don't fit some other unrelated incident that we know nothing about and haven't been discussing! You're certainly right this doesn't make sense.

 

[P31Woman]

Exposing, not tolerating, and doing what we can to stop spiritual quackery (if that's what this is) contributes to verifying the validity of scripture, therefore helping non-christians to believe more readily when we preach the gospel to them. In my opinion that is accomplishing a lot.



Or based on what they (we) see with our own eyes and can discern with our common sense and knowledge. We are commanded in scripture to "Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Testing all things and holding fast to what is good necessarily involves discerning and rejecting what is bad!



Actually, if you were aware of the tactics that have been developed and used by modern day false prophets (including false healers) you would see much in this video that is the same as those tactics that are purposely manipulated and designed to fool people. These tactics have been well exposed and documented.

...these people likely love the Lord and I doubt that they would use the injury of their daughter to fool people...

It is a well verified and exposed trick to plant actors (many times with props) in these "healing" events to make the healer look valid and lead people astray from the truth of God. Why? Because they make a lot of money and they enjoy the feeling of fame and power it gives them. Satan uses these tricks to convince people that miraculous instantaneous healing is far more common than it really is. Now a Christian who believes them is much more susceptible to the doubts Satan creates in their minds when their own ailment isn't healed by a miracle.

...these people likely love the Lord and I doubt that they would use the injury of their daughter to fool people (noting that they would have had to get an x-ray of a healthy 6 year old arm in order to fool us).

Do you know them personally? How can you determine they "love the Lord" if you are not in a place to know them personally and see if they demonstrate any of the "fruit of the spirit" by which we are told we will know Christians? Based on the video clip how can you even know if the girl was ever injured in the first place, or if she is even really their daughter? How can you determine they are not paid actors hired by the big money making organizations that put on these shows? (This is only one of many tactics used that have been exposed and that you are apparently unaware of.)

As for the x-rays, why is it so unbelievable that the organizers of these events could provide x-rays as props? Haven't you ever seen a fictional TV show with actors and props such as this? As one person pointed out already, the two x-rays don't even indicate the same place on the bones! Not to mention that there is absolutely no indication other than the word of the mother (actress, perhaps?) that either x-ray is even of the girl in question. This isn't even very good fakery!

...Again.. what does SCRIPTURE have to say..

Again.. SCRIPTURE says: "Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

In light of all you said, we simply don't know if the little girls and her mother are telling the truth.


She and her mother are giving Jesus the credit for healing her not this man.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi, AllenWynne!



I will let Obadiah answer this one.

Hmm, satan cured this woman of cancer miraculously so he could fool me...

Hmm, guess what? It didn't work!

All it did was build my faith in God.

You know, that doesn't make sense.
I pray to God for healing and satan answers my prayer and heals her.
I think you really have things backwards.

Did you even watch this video or read the posts about it before you disagreed? It has nothing to do with a woman being healed of cancer nor does it have anything to do with Satan healing anyone. It is about a woman's daughter purportedly being healed of a broken arm. Your response almost sounds like it is taking my statements and others about this particular incident and saying we are wrong because they don't fit some other unrelated incident that we know nothing about and haven't been discussing! You're certainly right this doesn't make sense.

We got sidetracked.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

In light of all you said, we simply don't know if the little girls and her mother are telling the truth.

Well, I know.

She and her mother are giving Jesus the credit for healing her not this man.

Dragging Jesus into the mix is even worse than giving credit to the man. If they only drag the man into it, at least he was asking for it.

 

[P31Woman]

In light of all you said, we simply don't know if the little girls and her mother are telling the truth.

Well, I know.

She and her mother are giving Jesus the credit for healing her not this man.

Dragging Jesus into the mix is even worse than giving credit to the man. If they only drag the man into it, at least he was asking for it.

I think you are playing a dangerous game.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I think you are playing a dangerous game.

Nah, I think Obadiah thoroughly explained what the dangerous game here is.

Satan uses these tricks to convince people that miraculous instantaneous healing is far more common than it really is. Now a Christian who believes them is much more susceptible to the doubts Satan creates in their minds when their own ailment isn't healed by a miracle.

 

[P31Woman]

Is this the same Todd Bentley that talks to an angel name Emma? The same Todd Bentley that stated that Jesus told him preaching the gospel was old school and that we all needed to move on? The same Todd Bentley that stated that gold dust was being sent to us from heaven? The same Todd Bentley that divorced his wife to marry his secretary? Are we seriously going to give this guy another look?

tob

This thread is not about Bently rather the focus is on this particular mother and child and their claim.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Exposing, not tolerating, and doing what we can to stop spiritual quackery (if that's what this is) contributes to verifying the validity of scripture, therefore helping non-christians to believe more readily when we preach the gospel to them. In my opinion that is accomplishing a lot.

There is no exposure here, perhaps highlighting a ministry that we know for a fact are doing this kind of behavior is more appropriate, this simply amounts to uneducated (I mean that in regards to this particular instance) gossiping about the people involved.. who are strangers and alleged Christians.

Or based on what they (we) see with our own eyes and can discern with our common sense and knowledge. We are commanded in scripture to "Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Testing all things and holding fast to what is good necessarily involves discerning and rejecting what is bad!

Indeed, should I then go perusing youtube videos making judgements as I see fit, yes we should hold fast to what is good, not highlight necessarily that which is wrong. Perhaps we can toss aside some of the bravado and showmenship and realize that God may in fact have healed this girl.

Really though, who knows in this instance.. which makes it kind of a lame argument to have..

Actually, if you were aware of the tactics that have been developed and used by modern day false prophets (including false healers) you would see much in this video that is the same as those tactics that are purposely manipulated and designed to fool people. These tactics have been well exposed and documented.

Let's suppose for a minute this was a court, and you were attempting to convict this man of the crime in which he deliberately was faking miracles for money, do you think this video would be conclusive evidence to support your prosecution?

If not, then why do you argue negatively against it?

It is a well verified and exposed trick to plant actors (many times with props) in these "healing" events to make the healer look valid and lead people astray from the truth of God. Why? Because they make a lot of money and they enjoy the feeling of fame and power it gives them. Satan uses these tricks to convince people that miraculous instantaneous healing is far more common than it really is. Now a Christian who believes them is much more susceptible to the doubts Satan creates in their minds when their own ailment isn't healed by a miracle.

That therefore concludes that this child and mother are likely actors in this scenario as well? I'm not denying that some phony faith healers use this tactic, I'm just looking for the basis for you arguing this being possibly the case.

Where did you hear that Satan is behind it? Scripture? Did he tell you?

Do you know them personally? How can you determine they "love the Lord" if you are not in a place to know them personally and see if they demonstrate any of the "fruit of the spirit" by which we are told we will know Christians?

You know.. you and I just met.. how do I know YOU know the Lord and love the Lord? Simply because beneath your Avatar it says yes to Christian is not conclusive is it?

Are we not to regard anyone as a brother until they produce the fruit of the Spirit, are we to be valiant fruit inspectors ready to strike if we see something irregular?

Imagine if Paul said this, "Love is skeptical of all things." This would describe much of our post enlightenment culture, even among Christians.

Based on the video clip how can you even know if the girl was ever injured in the first place, or if she is even really their daughter? How can you determine they are not paid actors hired by the big money making organizations that put on these shows? (This is only one of many tactics used that have been exposed and that you are apparently unaware of.)

I can't determine with certainty that they aren't paid actors and that the X-rays are 100% legitimate. How can you then determine the contrary?

As for the x-rays, why is it so unbelievable that the organizers of these events could provide x-rays as props? Haven't you ever seen a fictional TV show with actors and props such as this? As one person pointed out already, the two x-rays don't even indicate the same place on the bones! Not to mention that there is absolutely no indication other than the word of the mother (actress, perhaps?) that either x-ray is even of the girl in question. This isn't even very good fakery!

I will have to take another look at the x-rays (though I am no doctor but I know the difference between the radius and ulna) if that were to be proven evident then I would have to agree with you that it's fake. However, just from what I saw I don't see much of a good reason to be so vehemently convinced that it's fake.

Again.. SCRIPTURE says: "Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

I was referring to whether or not the miraculous gifts are for today, though this is a very applicable Scripture as in the direct context it is referring to the gift of prophecy.

 

[P31Woman]

Originally Posted by Obadiah


Satan uses these tricks to convince people that miraculous
instantaneous healing is far more common than it really is. Now a Christian who
believes them is much more susceptible to the doubts Satan creates in their
minds when their own ailment isn't healed by a miracle.

I did not see any biblical support for this belief that Satan does what he claims or that an individuals who believes Jesus can and does heal is going be more suscepitable to doubts than a Christian who does not.

I believe God heals us more times than we realize and we are not giving him the credit rather we thank the medical community or simply think we "got over it" when we should be giving God honor and glory.

 

[Obadiah]

In light of all you said, we simply don't know if the little girls and her mother are telling the truth.

The little girl refuses to say anything at all in the video (even though she's certainly old enough to be able to). The mother is willingly associating herself with a false prophet.

How much do we need in order to seriously call someone into question then?

http://defendingcontending.com/2009/05/10/todd-bentley-exposed-as-fraud/

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/todd_bentley.html

And there us much more evidence as well.

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23)

 

[P31Woman]

In light of all you said, we simply don't know if the little girls and her mother are telling the truth.

The little girl refuses to say anything at all in the video (even though she's certainly old enough to be able to). The mother is willingly associating herself with a false prophet.

How much do we need in order to seriously call someone into question then?

http://defendingcontending.com/2009/05/10/todd-bentley-exposed-as-fraud/

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/todd_bentley.html

And there us much more evidence as well.

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23)

Again, this thread is not about Bently or false teachers, it's about the little girl and her mother and the claim they are making.

Here is the OP

A young girl supposedly broke her arm. During a worship service, Jesus supposedly came down and healed her arm. The mother of the girl gives a testimony, along with showing before and after x-ray photos.

I say that it is a hoax.

What do you think?


"A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish." -Proverbs 19:9
______________________end copy

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[Obadiah]

Again, this thread is not about Bently or false teachers

Really? Let's ask the OP then. VirginShallConceive, what is this thread about?

As for the rest of the arguments here, some of which are pretty ignorant I might add, I've stated my case as well as stated some of my background and qualifications to discuss the points I've tried to make. That's all.

 

[P31Woman]

Again, this thread is not about Bently or false teachers

Really? Let's ask the OP then. VirginShallConceive, what is this thread about?

As for the rest of the arguments here, some of which are pretty ignorant I might add, I've stated my case as well as stated some of my background and qualifications to discuss the points I've tried to make. That's all.

We don't need to ask. We need only look at the op.

Here is the OP

A young girl supposedly broke her arm. During a worship service, Jesus supposedly came down and healed her arm. The mother of the girl gives a testimony, along with showing before and after x-ray photos.

I say that it is a hoax.

What do you think?


"A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish." -Proverbs 19:9

 

[P31Woman]

Hi, AllenWynne!



I will let Obadiah answer this one.

Hmm, satan cured this woman of cancer miraculously so he could fool me...

Hmm, guess what? It didn't work!

All it did was build my faith in God.

You know, that doesn't make sense.
I pray to God for healing and satan answers my prayer and heals her.
I think you really have things backwards.

Did you even watch this video or read the posts about it before you disagreed? It has nothing to do with a woman being healed of cancer nor does it have anything to do with Satan healing anyone. It is about a woman's daughter purportedly being healed of a broken arm. Your response almost sounds like it is taking my statements and others about this particular incident and saying we are wrong because they don't fit some other unrelated incident that we know nothing about and haven't been discussing! You're certainly right this doesn't make sense.

Read his post number 21 that came a post or two before this one. I believe that is what he is talking about. He too realizes this thread is about healing/miracles and not false prophets.

 

[gr8grace]

my take on this one is, hoax. I do not deny the reality of tongues and healings and prophecy done by other PEOPLE. I question the SOURCE.

Religion is a part of Satan's strategy; it is the creation of Satan's genius to counterfeit the plan of God. It is man seeking to use his own merits, his own works to gain the approbation of God. Satan's counterfeits of the plan of God in religion include a counterfeit: 1. Gospel, 2 CO 4:3-4. 2. Ministers, 2 CO 11:13-15. 3. Doctrine, 2 TI 4:1. 4. Communion table, 1 CO 10:19-21. 5. Spirituality, Gal 3:2-3. 6. Righteousness, MAT 19:16-28. 7. Self-righteousness, MAT 23:13-36. 8. Power and dynamics (miracles, healing, tongues) 2 TH 2:8-10. 9. System of gods, 2 TH 2:3-4.

The true Gospel is FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST, one can NEVER lose salvation. If healers and tongues people preached this message I would flip flop RIGHT NOW and believe in signs and wonders from other PEOPLE.

Tongues were used as a spoken LANGUAGE to evangelize to the Jews who were under the 5th cycle of discipline, as a client nation to God.(they were about to lose their client nation status)...Isaiah 28:11 was so important that it was quoted in the tongues passage in 1 CO 14:21‑22 by Paul.

Isaiah 28:11~~Indeed, He will speak to this people Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,

1 Cor 14:21-22~~21 In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord. 22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy [is for a sign], not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

If prophecy was for us today, we would be saying that the Bible is not complete, we as creatures can add some more revelation to Gods word.

Healing was to establish the Gospel message, Faith Alone in Christ alone, for eternity. How many healers today preach "Faith alone in Christ Alone and you can never lose that salvation?"

If a tongues person or A healer or a prophecy speaking person preached Faith alone in Christ alone and one can never lose his salvation, I would seriously consider changing my view.