miracles

[goliwog man]

just for those who dont believe miracles happen today .. look at this site i dug up .. http://www.anythingspossible.tk what do you think? do miracles still happen today ?

 

[supernac]

Of course they do!!!! I belive God will work through man first though, so
lets say you have cancer, go to the doctor, get cured. It's a miracle!!!

 

[Quath]

I would think a miracle should have something more behind it than "I went to the doctor and lived, therefore it was a miracle." That is like saying "I turgned the key in my car and it started it. It is a miracle."

She me a leg or an eye that has grown back. Also, don't show me something that was used to prove snake oil as a miracle cure. Many illnesses follow the patters: Wait 2 to 6 weeks and you either die or get better. So if you sniff baby powder and wait 4 weeks and are cured of something, don't claim baby powder is the cure.

So far, all studies I have seen have shown that prayer does not change the odds of a favorable outcome except through the placebo effect. (So prayers are as good as fake medicine.)

Quath

 

[supernac]

God made the men who came up with the treatments, made
the doctors who performed them. This is why I belive that
miracle's happen every day.

 

[goliwog man]

I would think a miracle should have something more behind it than "I went to the doctor and lived, therefore it was a miracle." That is like saying "I turgned the key in my car and it started it. It is a miracle."

She me a leg or an eye that has grown back. Also, don't show me something that was used to prove snake oil as a miracle cure. Many illnesses follow the patters: Wait 2 to 6 weeks and you either die or get better. So if you sniff baby powder and wait 4 weeks and are cured of something, don't claim baby powder is the cure.

So far, all studies I have seen have shown that prayer does not change the odds of a favorable outcome except through the placebo effect. (So prayers are as good as fake medicine.)

have you recorded any unbiased data to show any form of statisticss about prayers being answred. I believe all prayers are answered .. just some are answered no .... :D

 

[Quath]

have you recorded any unbiased data to show any form of statisticss about prayers being answred. I believe all prayers are answered .. just some are answered no .... :D

So if you accept the answers "yes", "no" and "not now" as valid answers to prayer, then praying to God is indistinguishable from praying to the Sun or to Elvis.

The Mayo clinic did a study on prayer back in 1999. The studies I have seen that support the healing power of prayer have usually found to be fraudulent or using bad statistics.

God made the men who came up with the treatments, made the doctors who performed them. This is why I belive that miracle's happen every day.

Then do you accept the reverse? God made cancer, SIDS, AIDS, flesh eating bacteria, mud slides, murderers, assassins, pedophiles, etc? In other words, if God gets credit for the good stuff like making doctors, does He also get the same credit for making mass murderers?

Quath

 

[supernac]

Man makes his own decisions, not God. So no, God is not responsible for
murders and such.

 

[Quath]

Man makes his own decisions, not God. So no, God is not responsible for murders and such.

So then is God responsible for a person deciding to be come a doctor and cure people? Is God responsible for the doctors decidion on where to cut and how much medicine to give?

I don't see how God gets credit for doctors but not for mass murderers?

Quath

 

[supernac]

God does not lead people to be murders. He will though give people
their personality, this is what would lead someone to be a doctor.

 

[Quath]

God does not lead people to be murders. He will though give people their personality, this is what would lead someone to be a doctor.

It sounds like you just want to assert "all good things that people do are accredited to God and all bad things are not." However, if God gives out personalities, does He not also give out personalities to mass murderers?

Quath

 

[Rick W]

It's not their fault because God made them that way?
Heard that one before.
It's a good dodge for accountability and people have been using excuses for years. Heck, I used excuse as a kid as far back as I can remember. Actually, we can become very good at it.

 

[Quath]

It's not their fault because God made them that way?
Heard that one before.
It's a good dodge for accountability and people have been using excuses for years. Heck, I used excuse as a kid as far back as I can remember. Actually, we can become very good at it.

Well, if doctors are doctors because God gave them personalities, why didn't God give doctor personalities to mass murderers also?

Basically, if God is in control of everything, He also has to be in control of the bad. If God has no control of human affairs, then God can not get credit for humans doing good (or evil).

Quath

 

[Rick W]

Depends on who you want to claim as sovereign. God or yourself. If one believes there is no God then your argument stands. If one believes God then the argument doesn't hold water.
Some view this argument with the idea God gave no freewill but made man as puppets. This view is used by mormon doctrine to show why it wasn't Adam's fault for what he did in the garden, making Adam a good guy, an Adam-god, arguing that without Adam doing what he did there would be no reason for Christ. So Adam did a good thing in taking the apple he was tempted with.
This is like saying the Jews did a good thing in killing Jesus. But their motivation was anything but good. It was Christ that did the devine act, not the Jews.
No, you have freewill to believe or not. That's up to the individual, between them and God. You can choose between yourself or God, totally up to you and nobody else. If you choose to be without God then He'll not make you do in eternity something you didn't want to do in life. It's that simple.

 

[Quath]

For this thread, I assume God is sovereign. Here is how I see it break down:

Does God determine people's personalities?
If He does, then He determines the personality of a mass murderer.
If He doesn't then, He does not determine the personality of a doctor.

Quath

 

[Orthodox Christian]

In order for something to be considered a miracle, it must, by definition, be without logical causation, or logically caused with an illogical outcome.

However: just because something happens without an apparent logical causation does not mean that it is a miracle. (enter Ockham)

Nor does the illogical result imply a miracle- it may be that there are mitigating, hidden factors.

There is also this tendency among people to turn pure coincidence into something far more.

In a parallel vein, we have the phenomena that Jung referred to as Synchronicity. There are some odd parallels in life- it may be that we are witnessing a structure within our experience that exists at the micro and macro levels.

After all, Aspect's experiment with photons leads many to believe that consciousness, rather than matter, is the fundamental underpining of the universe we experience.
http://twm.co.nz/goswam1.htm

So, point being, there is an awful lot of levels of investigation o go through before arriving at the conclusion "miracle." One must submit miracle claims to empirical scrutiny, for the term miracle implies a suspension of 'natural laws.' Ergo, the claim miracle is an empirical one.

I have experienced things that defy explanation, coincidences so grand as to defy all odds. I am hesitant to refer to these things as miracles, for I do not even know what material reality was involved, and besides- they were individual, personal experiences. Paul (allegedly) saw Christ on the road to Damascus, yet scripture states that those with him did not hear the voice. Was that a 'miracle,' or a vision? Is a vision a miracle? I don't happen to believe so.

Here is my weakest conjecture:
Perhaps there is even a physical explanation to visions. Maybe the visionaries are not mentally ill or tumored, but actually are gifted with perceptive abilities beyond those of their fellow humans? Not everybody can discern the difference between red and green. Maybe the Natives who see Spirit Guides and the Catholics who see Mary are seeing something beyond explanation that their minds interpret into familiar archetypes/symbols.

I believe in miracles, I believe in visions, I believe that matter is NOT the fundamental reality of this universe. I believe that Plato was right about forms, I believe "in Him we live and move and have our being." I am not satisfied with the answers that random processes provide to ontological questions.

 

[Rick W]

.. double post

 

[Rick W]

For this thread, I assume God is sovereign. Here is how I see it break down:

Does God determine people's personalities?
If He does, then He determines the personality of a mass murderer.
If He doesn't then, He does not determine the personality of a doctor.

Quath

He created me of that I'm sure. And I am created with the freewill to choose to do something or not. If I follow my urges simply because they are there is that ok? Of course not. I have the responsibilty to be accountable for my actions. I have the choice of action.
Do you resist urges to do wrong? Of course you do. Why? Because you can make that choice through freewill.

 

[Quath]

He created me of that I'm sure. And I am created with the freewill to choose to do something or not. If I follow my urges simply because they are there is that ok? Of course not. I have the responsibilty to be accountable for my actions. I have the choice of action.
Do you resist urges to do wrong? Of course you do. Why? Because you can make that choice through freewill.

So if you make a good decision through your freewill like saving a man's life on the operating table, was it a miracle from God?

Quath

 

[Vic C.]

Very simply, a miracle is an action or event that can only be achieved through Supernatural powers. Parting a Sea, or bringing someone back from the dead, or instantly turning water into wine, or healing someone simply by touching, etc., is a miracle. Narrowly avoiding an accident or performing a life-saving operation, etc. is not a miracle per say.

 

[supernac]

God can and does work miracle's in everyday life. We don't need some huge
complicated theological formula to decide if it's a miracle.

Lets say a person loses his job. Lets say he prays for another.
The next day he gets one. I consider this a "miracle" in the
sense that God had a direct hand in it.

"Ask and you shall receive"