Misunderstood by modern Christendom.

[Scotth1960]

Dear friends, Peter E. Gillquist writes: "It is safe that no woman in history is more misunderstood by modern Christendom than the Virgin Mary.
"And it is also probable that is disagreement concerning Mary between two Christians, if their differences remain unresolved, it will be due to stubborn refusal to deal with the biblical data.
"If I have heard him say it once, I have heard Billy Graham say it at least a half dozen times over the years: "We evangelical Christians do not give Mary her proper due".
"His statement raises the crucial question about Mary. What is her proper due? Before we look to the Scriptures for some answers, let us acknowledge right up front a problem which makes our task much more difficult than it should be.
"The highly-charged emotional atmosphere which surrounds this subject serves to blunt our objectivity in facing up to Mary. Many of us were brought up to question or reject honor paid to Mary in Christian worship and art. Therefore, we often have our minds made up in advance. We have allowed our preconceptions to color our understanding even of the Scriptural passages concerning her. We have not let the facts speak for themselves.
"As we attempted to face up to Mary honestly and openly -- and it was not easy for us -- we turned first to the Bible and specifically to the New Testament. Then we went to the Old Testament. As we studied we also considered what the early Church fathers had to say on the subject. We looked at the whole of Church history to try to understand both how she had been properly honored, and how incorrect dogmas concerning her crept into the picture.
"The New Testament Record
"What is it, then, that the New Testament teaches concerning the Virgin Mary? We can find at least four crucial answers.
"Mary Is the Greatest Woman Who Ever Lived
"Whereas our Lord Jesus Christ told us there was no greater man to walk the earth than John the Baptist, both the Archangel Gabriel and the saintly Elizabeth confessed to Mary, "Blessed are you among women" (Luke 1:28, 42).
"She is the most blessed of women for several reasons, the greatest of which is that she conceived, carried, gave birth to, and nurtured the Savior of our souls. The One who today occupies the heavenly throne of David and is seated regally at the right hand of God the Father, entered the human race and became our Savior through her womb. She was chosen by the Father to bear His only-begotten SOn.
"In that role, Mary was the first person in all history to receive and accept Christ as her Savior. You and I are called to enthrone the Lord in our hearts and lives-- to follow Mary's example is doing so. Early in Christain history she is called "the first of the redeemed". ..
"Mary is also blessed because she found favor in the sight of God. Gabriel's words of encouragement to her were, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). Then he comforted her by saying, "Do not be afriad, Mary, for you have found favor with God" (Luke 1:30, emphasis added). ... [pages 107-109.].
"Mary Is the Mother of God
"Now things get a bit more touchy for some of us. Here is one of those emotional trouble spots I mentioned earlier. Whether we like to face it or not, the Bible teaches Mary is the mother of God. ..." [p. 112.].
"This title, of course, does not mean mother of the Holy Trinity, for the Holy Trinity has no mother. Neither does it mean she originated the Person who is God the Son. It refers instead to Mary being the God-bearer (Theotokos in Greek), the Mother of the Son of God, who assumed full humanity in her womb. ... [p. 113.].
"We Are to Honor Mary and Call Her Blessed
"Now comes the toughest test of all. Not only is Mary the most blessed of women, our model for the Christian life, and the Mother of God, but we are also called to honor her and bless her. How do we know? The Bible tells us so.
"During her three-month stay at Elizabeth's house, Mary offered one of the most beautiful prayers of praise to the Lord in all the Scriptures. It begins, "My soul magnifies the Lord", and it has become known as "The Magnificat".
"In that prayer, inspired by the Holy Spirit, Mary prophesied, "henceforth, all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:48). Essentially, all generations in Church history have done so; only those of the last two centuries have faltered. Our generation of American Christians is filled with those who refuse to bless her, and we must change our ways". [p. 114.].
"The Old Testament and the Virgin "We know that the Old Testament is more than just an inspired account of the history of mankind, or of Israel in particular. In its pages -- indeed central to its message -- is also the prophetic record concerning our Lord Jesus Christ. He is typified throughout. Moses was a type of Christ, in that he led the people out of bondage into the land of promise. David typified Christ as King of Israel. Adam was a type of Christ as head of the human race.
"Often overlooked, however, is the fact that the Virgin Mary is also seen in the prophetic passages of the Old Testament. Most Christians are aware that the Prophet Isaiah predicts Mary's virgin conception of Christ when he writes: "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel" (Isaiah 7:14). But there are numerous other passages which speak of Mary as well.
"Ever-Virgin "From the very early years of the Church, Mary was called not only Virgin,. but Ever-Virgin. She was seen as never having had a sexual union with Joseph, before or after the birth of Christ. Ezekiel 44:1-2 is a passage often referred to by the early fathers in this regard. It states: "Then He brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary which faces toward the east, but it was shut. And the Lord said to me, "This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter by it, because the LORD God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall b shut".
"In traditional interpretation of this passage, Mary is the temple of Christ and Christ is the Prince of Peace. The gate mentioned is seen as a picture of the door of Mary's womb through which Christ entered the world. You might not find that interpretation in some of today's commentaries, but it was held by the great majority of early Church fathers, as well as many of the Reformation leaders -- notably Martin Luther and John Calvin.
"Virgin Until "At this point, however, a very valid question can be raised. If she remained virgin, why does the Gospel of Matthew tell us that Joseph knew not his wife until after Christ was born (see Matthew 1:25)?
"From a Scriptural standpoint, the presence of the phrase "until she had brought forth her firstborn Son", does not automatically mean that Joseph must have had a sexual union with her afterward. In both Greek and Hebrew the word until or to can have several meanings. We find it in 2 Samuel 6:23: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children to) the day of her death". It is used again in Matthew 28:@0 where the risen Christ says, "Lo, I am with you always, even to (until) the end of the age". And in Deuteronomy 34:6 we read, "[Moses was buried] in a valley in the land of Moab, but no one knows his grave to (until) this day".
"Obviously the use of the word in these passages does not imply that Michal had a child after her death, that Christ will no longer be with us at the end of the world, or that Moses' burial place was discovered the day Deuteronomy 34:6 was written. But the same token, the word until in Matthew 1:25 does not mean that Joseph and Mary began a sexual unon after Christ was born. Such a teaching is found nowhere in Scripture and is contrary to the consistent voice of the entire early Church". [pp. 116-117.].
Gillquist, Peter E. (1989). BECOMING ORTHODOX: A Journey to the Ancient Christian Faith. Brentwood, TN: Wolgemuth & Hyatt, Publishers, Inc.

God bless you all. God bless Mary, the Ever-virgin Mother of God. Blessed be Mary, Mother of Christ (until our LORD GOD and Saviour. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Alabaster]

No one disputes the fact that Mary is the mother of the human Jesus even though she was not the “supplier†of His human soul. Nor is there any question that the man Christ Jesus was created human in body, soul and spirit. What is disputed is the extension of the title “mother†to a divine nature that eternally existed and was not created in the womb of the virgin. A mother is only the mother of what originates within her womb. The second person of the blessed trinity did not originate in Mary’s body. He is without beginning – has always existed – and has no mother.
“Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.) (Psalm 90:2) “Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.†(Psalm 93:2) “But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him,†(Psalm 103:17) “Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.†(Psalm 106:48)
That Jesus had two natures – one created and one eternal - united in a single human body is beyond question. That only one of those two natures originated in Mary’s womb also is beyond question. And why she cannot then be called the mother of God finds an exact parallel in Christ’s relationship to King David.
“He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:†(Luke 1:32) “And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?†(Matt 12:23) “And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.†(Matt 15:22) “And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.†(Matt 20:30) “And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.†(Matt 21:9)
In these Scriptures it is clearly established that the nation of Israel expected their Messiah to derive – as prophesied - from the tribe of Judah and the house of David, thereby attributing fatherhood of the Messiah to David in accordance with their method of reckoning descent. But David cannot be called the father of God because of his relationship to the man Christ Jesus. Our Lord Himself preempted any possibility of that erroneous belief.
“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.†(Matt 22:42-46) Parallel accounts of this episode are found in Mark 12: 35-37, and Luke 20:41-44.
In these Scriptures, our Lord has done what Roman Catholic apologists say may not be done. He has clearly drawn a line between the human nature and the eternal nature of Christ. He has clearly established the fact that David is NOT the father of God, because he is NOT the father of the second person of the blessed trinity. He has clearly shown this distinction of natures to be a mystery – one the Jews of His day could not comprehend any better than the Roman Catholics or Christians of the 21st century. This mystery of the two fused but separate natures manifest in Christ finds another reference in the following excerpt from the Gospel of John. When confronted by the Jews and constrained to identify himself, John the Baptist’s response included this interesting disclosure: “For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.†(John 3:34) Certainly the Holy Spirit could not have been given to the Second Person of the trinity for He is part of that trinity. So the Holy Spirit that was given without measure was given only to the man Christ Jesus.
It stands to reason, then, that like King David – to whom fatherhood ONLY of the man Christ Jesus is attributed - Mary is the Mother ONLY of the man Christ Jesus. To prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt, let us insert Mary’s name in place of King David’s in the previously cited Scriptures:
“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of MARY. He saith unto them, How then doth MARY call him Lord, saying, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. (Luke 1:46, 47) If MARY then call him Lord, how is he her son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.â€
To insist that Mary is Christotokos only and not theotokos is not to separate Jesus into a “heavenly Jesus†and an “earthly Jesus†as Roman Catholicism contends. It is merely recognizing what Jesus Himself made clear, that David was not the father of God, and by parallel reasoning, Mary was His earthly mother only, and not a Goddess or Queen of Heaven worthy of the title mother of God.
Because the Second Person of the blessed trinity is an eternal being having neither a beginning nor an ending, it was the man Christ Jesus who suffered as the second Adam on Calvary and died for the sins of the world. The Second Person of the trinity did not die, cannot die or be put to death. And it’s the man Christ Jesus – not the Second Person of the trinity - who is said Scripturally to be the one mediator between God and man. (1 Tim 2:5) He who is eternal, who could not and cannot die, could not be, and was not, born of the virgin.
Conclusion: Jesus Christ the man is the son of Mary. The Second Person of the Trinity is her God, not her son, for He did not originate in her womb.

Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God

 

[Scotth1960]

Dear Alaster, You need to keep things in context and understand what the Church means by "Mother of God." Mary is not mother of Christ's divinity.
You said, "There is no doubt the man Jesus was created human in body, soul and spirit." Not at all. Jesus Christ was not created by God. He is eternally begotten of God the Father before all ages. He is not a creature. He is begotten from eternity. He is begotten, NOT MADE. Mary did not make Jesus. But He was begotten in her womb, and since Jesus is God, Mary must be the Mother of God. To say that Mary is not the Mother of God is to deny Christ's Divinity. God the Son cannot be separated into 2 persons. He is the God-man. So in saying Mary is the Mother of God, we are saying she is the Mother of God incarnate. Her motherhood extends only to His humanity, but He is God. Do you not understand the logic of this? To deny she is the Mother of the Son of God is to deny that Jesus Christ is God. "This title, Mother of God, took on great importance in the fourth century, when a heretic named Nestorius -- a man who held high office in the Church -- claimed that the one in Mary's womb was certainly man, but that He was not God. Orthodox Christians, with one accord, said, "Wrong!" To see Jesus Christ as something less than God in the flesh is sub-Christian. For unless the one in Mary's womb was and is God, we are dead in our sins. To safeguard the full Deity of Christ, the Church has always insisted that Mary be rightly called -- as Elizabeth discerned her to be-- the Mother of God". [BECOMING ORTHODOX: p. 113., q.v..].
Do you understand this now? If Christ is God, Mary must be the Mother of God, because Mary is the Mother of Christ. In Erie Scott Harrington

 

[Alabaster]

It is merely religious thinking that likes to call Mary the Mother of God. She isn't. She was the mother of Jesus, and she needed Him as her Saviour, too.

 

[Scotth1960]

It is merely religious thinking that likes to call Mary the Mother of God. She isn't.

Dear Alabaster, Your source defends Nestorius. Nestorius taught there were 2 persons in Christ, one human, one divine. Nestorius denied that Mary was the Mother of God. To follow this logic is to succumb to the influence of Nestorius, who was a false teacher. Nestorius continues on today in those who deny Mary is THEOTOKOS. Unless Christ is God, we cannot be saved. Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God, because Christ is God. To deny this would be to separate Christ into 2 separate persons, one God, the other man. Mary is the Mother of God. We should follow Church tradition, and not the example of proven false teachers like Nestorios. Your source that denies Mary is the Mother of God gives inadequate use of the Scriptures. Nestorios is not a sound thinker. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

It is merely religious thinking that likes to call Mary the Mother of God. She isn't. She was the mother of Jesus, and she needed Him as her Saviour, too.

Dear Alabaster, Of course Mary needs Christ as her Saviour. She said, "My soul rejoices in God my Savior." Mary is called blessed among women because she is the very first soul that Jesus Christ saved. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Pizzaguy]

It is merely religious thinking that likes to call Mary the Mother of God. She isn't. She was the mother of Jesus, and she needed Him as her Saviour, too.

 

[Bick]

To me, the Matthew 1:25 verse couldn't be any clearer, "And he knew her not until she had brought forth a son, and he called his name Jesus."

Mary was not a perpetual virgin.

Mark 6:3 further clarifies it: "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not his sisters here with us?"

Yes, I agree that Mary should be praised even more.

She was highly favored by God (Luke 1:28, 30). Out of many young virgins, she was the one to conceive and bring forth Jesus--Immanuel, the Saviour of the world.

She was humbly obedient, calling herself "the handmaid of the Lord" (Luke 1:38), willing to do what the Lord directed.
Elizabeth, her cousin, when she saw her cried out, "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb!" (Luke 1:42).
Elizabeth knew Mary was the mother of the Lord (Luke 1:43).

Mary believed the words of the angel and praised the Lord rejoicing in her God and Saviour, proclaiming that all generations from henceforth would call her blessed (Luke 1:47, 48).

I can believe that in the Messianic Kingdom (the millennium) when Mary is resurrected after Christ's return to the earth in power and great glory, that, indeed, all generations will call her "Blessed."

 

[Alabaster]

To me, the Matthew 1:25 verse couldn't be any clearer, "And he knew her not until she had brought forth a son, and he called his name Jesus."

Mary was not a perpetual virgin.

Mark 6:3 further clarifies it: "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not his sisters here with us?"

Yes, I agree that Mary should be praised even more.

She was highly favored by God (Luke 1:28, 30). Out of many young virgins, she was the one to conceive and bring forth Jesus--Immanuel, the Saviour of the world.

She was humbly obedient, calling herself "the handmaid of the Lord" (Luke 1:38), willing to do what the Lord directed.
Elizabeth, her cousin, when she saw her cried out, "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb!" (Luke 1:42).
Elizabeth knew Mary was the mother of the Lord (Luke 1:43).

Mary believed the words of the angel and praised the Lord rejoicing in her God and Saviour, proclaiming that all generations from henceforth would call her blessed (Luke 1:47, 48).

I can believe that in the Messianic Kingdom (the millennium) when Mary is resurrected after Christ's return to the earth in power and great glory, that, indeed, all generations will call her "Blessed."

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Re: Misunderstood by "Orthodox/Catholic" Tradition

"Mary Is the Greatest Woman Who Ever Lived"

This is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION".
"Mary was the first person in all history to receive and accept Christ as her Savior."

There's Biblical evidence to the contrary, so This is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION".

"Mary is also blessed because she found favor in the sight of God."

This, at least, is a true statement based on Scripture.

"Mary Is the Mother of God"

No, she's NOT. God is eternal and the Word who was incernated as "Jesus" is also eternal. there IS NO "Mother" of record for God.

Mary is the mother of God's SON, and anything beyond that is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION".

"We Are to Honor Mary and Call Her Blessed"

TRUE! - and Christians do just that without resorting to the "Fantasies" Traditionally expounded by the "Orthodox", and the INCREDIBLE Blasphemies of the "Romanists".

"Ever-Virgin "From the very early years of the Church, Mary was called not only Virgin,. but Ever-Virgin. She was seen as never having had a sexual union with Joseph, before or after the birth of Christ."

This is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION". It demonstrates how EARLY in the game, pagan inclusions had wormed their way in to the Church. Naturally the Bible indicates the OPPOSITE of this foolishness, and indicates that Mary was in many ways a typical Jewish housewife with children which were the result of sexual union with her husband - AFTER the miraculous birth of Jesus.

THERE IS NO REASON WHATSOEVER to take the foolish "Orthodox" OR "Romanist" teachings about her seriously. Only Protestants properly relate to Mary as she really was.

 

[Alabaster]

Re: Misunderstood by "Orthodox/Catholic" Tradition

"Mary Is the Greatest Woman Who Ever Lived"

This is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION".
"Mary was the first person in all history to receive and accept Christ as her Savior."

There's Biblical evidence to the contrary, so This is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION".

"Mary is also blessed because she found favor in the sight of God."

This, at least, is a true statement based on Scripture.

"Mary Is the Mother of God"

No, she's NOT. God is eternal and the Word who was incernated as "Jesus" is also eternal. there IS NO "Mother" of record for God.

Mary is the mother of God's SON, and anything beyond that is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION".

"We Are to Honor Mary and Call Her Blessed"

TRUE! - and Christians do just that without resorting to the "Fantasies" Traditionally expounded by the "Orthodox", and the INCREDIBLE Blasphemies of the "Romanists".

"Ever-Virgin "From the very early years of the Church, Mary was called not only Virgin,. but Ever-Virgin. She was seen as never having had a sexual union with Joseph, before or after the birth of Christ."

This is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION". It demonstrates how EARLY in the game, pagan inclusions had wormed their way in to the Church. Naturally the Bible indicates the OPPOSITE of this foolishness, and indicates that Mary was in many ways a typical Jewish housewife with children which were the result of sexual union with her husband - AFTER the miraculous birth of Jesus.

THERE IS NO REASON WHATSOEVER to take the foolish "Orthodox" OR "Romanist" teachings about her seriously. Only Protestants properly relate to Mary as she really was.

Two thumbs up!

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Misunderstood by "Orthodox/Catholic" Tradition

"Mary Is the Greatest Woman Who Ever Lived"

This is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION".
"Mary was the first person in all history to receive and accept Christ as her Savior."

There's Biblical evidence to the contrary, so This is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION".

"Mary is also blessed because she found favor in the sight of God."

This, at least, is a true statement based on Scripture.

"Mary Is the Mother of God"

No, she's NOT. God is eternal and the Word who was incernated as "Jesus" is also eternal. there IS NO "Mother" of record for God.

Mary is the mother of God's SON, and anything beyond that is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION".

"We Are to Honor Mary and Call Her Blessed"

TRUE! - and Christians do just that without resorting to the "Fantasies" Traditionally expounded by the "Orthodox", and the INCREDIBLE Blasphemies of the "Romanists".

"Ever-Virgin "From the very early years of the Church, Mary was called not only Virgin,. but Ever-Virgin. She was seen as never having had a sexual union with Joseph, before or after the birth of Christ."

This is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION". It demonstrates how EARLY in the game, pagan inclusions had wormed their way in to the Church. Naturally the Bible indicates the OPPOSITE of this foolishness, and indicates that Mary was in many ways a typical Jewish housewife with children which were the result of sexual union with her husband - AFTER the miraculous birth of Jesus.

THERE IS NO REASON WHATSOEVER to take the foolish "Orthodox" OR "Romanist" teachings about her seriously. Only Protestants properly relate to Mary as she really was.

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it...

 

[Pizzaguy]

Re: Misunderstood by "Orthodox/Catholic" Tradition

She was seen as never having had a sexual union with Joseph, before or after the birth of Christ."

By who and based on WHAT was she "seen as" a virgin forever?

How can this statement be defended? Did Jesus not have siblings that were the result of Mary and Joesph's ... ahh... you know, marital relationship?

 

[Alabaster]

Re: Misunderstood by "Orthodox/Catholic" Tradition

By who and based on WHAT was she "seen as" a virgin forever?

On nothing by fabulists.

How can this statement be defended?

They try, but it can't be.

Did Jesus not have siblings that were the result of Mary and Joesph's ... ahh... you know, marital relationship?

Yes, he surely did.

 

[Scotth1960]

To me, the Matthew 1:25 verse couldn't be any clearer, "And he knew her not until she had brought forth a son, and he called his name Jesus."

Mary was not a perpetual virgin.

Mark 6:3 further clarifies it: "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not his sisters here with us?"

Yes, I agree that Mary should be praised even more.

She was highly favored by God (Luke 1:28, 30). Out of many young virgins, she was the one to conceive and bring forth Jesus--Immanuel, the Saviour of the world.

She was humbly obedient, calling herself "the handmaid of the Lord" (Luke 1:38), willing to do what the Lord directed.
Elizabeth, her cousin, when she saw her cried out, "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb!" (Luke 1:42).
Elizabeth knew Mary was the mother of the Lord (Luke 1:43).

Mary believed the words of the angel and praised the Lord rejoicing in her God and Saviour, proclaiming that all generations from henceforth would call her blessed (Luke 1:47, 48).

I can believe that in the Messianic Kingdom (the millennium) when Mary is resurrected after Christ's return to the earth in power and great glory, that, indeed, all generations will call her "Blessed."

Dear friend, So are you just choosing to ignore what Fr. Gillquist said about the biblical meaning and uses of the word "until" ("to") in the Scriptures. If you had paid attention to this truth, you would know from a careful, historic reading of this passage Mat. 1:25, "until"/"to" has a meaning in the context of all the Scriptures that does not make it mandatory to believe that Mary had relations with Joseph. You again have not found one Scripture that says, "The children of Mary and Joseph". Certainly, God would not have left this matter un-revealed, and if He had intended us to believe Mary had children with Joseph, He would have revealed it plainly. God does not hide the Gospel from His sheep.
Certainly, people who insist Mary and Joseph knew each other in the flesh fail to produce a sane answer as to why St. John was asked by Jesus Christ the Lord, our Lord, to take care of His mother, if the virgin Mary had other children with Joseph, who certainly would have been the ones who would have been asked by Christ to take care of Mary, if there were any such children. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
:nod

 

[Scotth1960]

Re: Misunderstood by "Orthodox/Catholic" Tradition

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it...

"Only Protestants relate to Mary as she really was". Not at all. Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, all Protestants, believed that Mary is ever-virgin. Why call yourself Protestant if you don't believe what these Protestants believed?
Your interpretation is your own, not that of the Holy Spirit, of the historic Church.
I have no interpretation or opinion of my own. I want to believe only what all Christians of all times and places have always believed (cf. St. Vincent of Lerins, Commonitories). It is easy to try to rush into Scripture and take it out of context, and interpret it in ways no first and second century AD Christian ever thought of interpreting it. In Erie Scott

 

[Alabaster]

Re: Misunderstood by "Orthodox/Catholic" Tradition

"Only Protestants relate to Mary as she really was". Not at all.

Yes they do.

Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, all Protestants, believed that Mary is ever-virgin. Why call yourself Protestant if you don't believe what these Protestants believed?

They were very wrong.

Your interpretation is your own, not that of the Holy Spirit, of the historic Church.

The interpretation comes from the reading of the word of God with the assistance of the Holy Spirit who teaches all things.

I have no interpretation or opinion of my own.

You have embraced the opinion of the institution of your choice.

I want to believe only what all Christians of all times and places have always believed (cf. St. Vincent of Lerins, Commonitories). It is easy to try to rush into Scripture and take it out of context, and interpret it in ways no first and second century AD Christian ever thought of interpreting it. In Erie Scott

You have been deceived. Do you not 'WANT TO BELIEVE' the truth, or the holy Scriptures? What was good enough for the disciples is great for me.

 

[Scotth1960]

Re: Misunderstood by "Orthodox/Catholic" Tradition

Dear Alabaster, You haven't shown where the Holy Spirit teaches us about ducks in the Bible. :nod:waving
Scott In Erie PA

[

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Misunderstood by "Orthodox/Catholic" Tradition

"Only Protestants relate to Mary as she really was". Not at all. Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, all Protestants, believed that Mary is ever-virgin. Why call yourself Protestant if you don't believe what these Protestants believed?
Your interpretation is your own, not that of the Holy Spirit, of the historic Church.
I have no interpretation or opinion of my own. I want to believe only what all Christians of all times and places have always believed (cf. St. Vincent of Lerins, Commonitories). It is easy to try to rush into Scripture and take it out of context, and interpret it in ways no first and second century AD Christian ever thought of interpreting it. In Erie Scott

Scott,

You are preaching to the choir.
Maybe you meant to post this to someone else...

Regards

 

[Scotth1960]

Re: Misunderstood by "Orthodox/Catholic" Tradition

"Mary Is the Greatest Woman Who Ever Lived"

This is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION".
"Mary was the first person in all history to receive and accept Christ as her Savior."

There's Biblical evidence to the contrary, so This is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION".

"Mary is also blessed because she found favor in the sight of God."

This, at least, is a true statement based on Scripture.

"Mary Is the Mother of God"

No, she's NOT. God is eternal and the Word who was incernated as "Jesus" is also eternal. there IS NO "Mother" of record for God.

Mary is the mother of God's SON, and anything beyond that is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION".

"We Are to Honor Mary and Call Her Blessed"

TRUE! - and Christians do just that without resorting to the "Fantasies" Traditionally expounded by the "Orthodox", and the INCREDIBLE Blasphemies of the "Romanists".

"Ever-Virgin "From the very early years of the Church, Mary was called not only Virgin,. but Ever-Virgin. She was seen as never having had a sexual union with Joseph, before or after the birth of Christ."

This is an assumption based on NOTHING other than religious "TRADITION". It demonstrates how EARLY in the game, pagan inclusions had wormed their way in to the Church. Naturally the Bible indicates the OPPOSITE of this foolishness, and indicates that Mary was in many ways a typical Jewish housewife with children which were the result of sexual union with her husband - AFTER the miraculous birth of Jesus.

THERE IS NO REASON WHATSOEVER to take the foolish "Orthodox" OR "Romanist" teachings about her seriously. Only Protestants properly relate to Mary as she really was.

Friends, "Only Protestants properly relate to Mary as she really was". That is just bigotry and pride against the billions of other Christians who blessed the Ever-Virgin Mary Theotokos and Mother of God. Protestants fail to understand Mary and make her into a modern, sexually-liberated woman, and little more than a object for St. Joseph. His role is her betrothed and the father of Jesus Christ, not as someone who needed to have relations with his wife. It contributes nothing to the Christian Gospel to include a fleshly relationship in this context. This is out of context. Marriage is honorable in all and the bed undefiled. But it is going too far to call Mary abnormal if she did not have relations with Joseph. It fails to take into account Matthew 19 and 1 Corinthians 6, 1 Corinthians 7. The unmarried state is also a covenant with God. Mary kept that kind of covenant.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS The other children of Mary and Joseph is a modern tradition of men and will not stand the test of time and the testimony of the early Christian Church. They knew what they were talking about. Often we here in America think we know what we are talking about, and we wish to escape suffering and fall for pretribulation rapture teachings. So I was once in great ERROR about that!
I have learned from my mistakes.