Moral Law

[Strangelove]

Even in the Old Testament Justification has always been through faith.

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

So the only thing that the law can do for you, as we've seen is to CONDEMN you. It cannot justify you. Even in the Old Covenant. It is evident. You cannot be blessed by something that curses. Paul quotes Habakkuk:

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.​

So what the deuce was God thinking even GIVING the law to the Hebrews? What was the point if you cannot be justified by obeying the law?

Can anyone tell me?

 

[Strangelove]

The law is inflexible and ABSOLUTE. You either do them all perfectly to God's divine standard or you are cursed.

Leviticus 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

Living in the law means absolute obedience. There is no leway. Paul quotes Leviticus:

3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.​

If we live in faith we will be judged by faith. If we live in the law then we will be judged by the law which is to be CONDEMNED.​

So WHY was the law given to us? Why would God do such a thing, if all the law does is to condemn?​

 

[AbsolutelyDarling]

Have you ever read Lord of the Flies?

 

[Strangelove]

3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:​

Which of you OT scholars can tell me which scripture Paul is quoting from here? And what is the overall message of Gal 3:13?​

Anyone?​

 

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<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->I see the value of the Law as a tool to reveal sin within the mind of the reader. The Law reveals that all are sinners needing the salvation of Jesus. The Law sets people up to embrace the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Strangelove]

I see the value of the Law as a tool to reveal sin within the mind of the reader. The Law reveals that all are sinners needing the salvation of Jesus. The Law sets people up to embrace the Atonement of the Messiah Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Give that man a banana. Correct Adstar.

The law ELEVATES sin to the level of a transgression. Without the law there are still sins but there are no transgressions to SHOW the sin. Surely every man must know he is a sinner when he read the law. So every man knows he cannot save himself by keeping it and instead needs a saviour.

So this is what it means when Jesus says He fulfilled the law. He DID the law.....PERFECTLY. He fulfilled DIVINE righteousness, the only person ever to do so, and revealed Himself as totally righteouss and therefore divine.

So, enter the idea of a substitutionary atonement. The only sacrifice that would satisfy God was an absolutely spotless, sinless being. His own Son. Jesus was MADE A CURSE for us, to redeem us from the curse of the law.

Jesus was cursed BY GOD, made a curse for us when He hung him from the tree. Paul quotes Deuternomomy:

21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to
be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:​

21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in
any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of
God.. that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God
giveth thee for an inheritance.​

Paul takes this verse and pulls it from context to show a point. Jesus NEVER deserved to die like that. He didnt commit sin worthy of death but he was MADE SIN in our place and received the curse of God for us. So now all that believe in Him and understand what happened on the cross are saved by His shed blood by having His righteousness credited to our account and cloaking us in that sanctification in the eyes of God.

Does that mean the law is irrelevant for Christians today? God forbid! Study the law by all means. If you need to understand morality then the law is a great place to know what is an abomination in God's eyes. The law is not, however...a duty of Christians to follow. We dont need to keep the law. We are not in debt to follow the laws. None of that can save us.

If we know Jesus from the Gospels then we understand our King and are aware of what we need to do to please God. The commandments to love God and love others bears the entire weight of the moral law. This is surely enough for most people to understand what is required. If you require clarification on morality it is fine to go to the OT of course. The danger of Judaization as shown in Galatians is that Christians might feel that following Mosaic law somehow sanctifies them or justifies them in God's eyes. This is false...and is a heresy.

Understand the miracle of Jesus being able to fulfill those divine standards. Then read the NT and see how the law was given in order for Jesus to fulfill it and the wonderful saving Grace that is imputed to us through faith in Christ (Grace by faith having always been the sole vehicle for salvation from the Abrahamic covenant onwards).

Doc.

 

[Elijah674]

Give that man a banana. Correct Adstar.

The law ELEVATES sin to the level of a transgression. Without the law there are still sins but there are no transgressions to SHOW the sin. Surely every man must know he is a sinner when he read the law. So every man knows he cannot save himself by keeping it and instead needs a saviour.

So this is what it means when Jesus says He fulfilled the law. He DID the law.....PERFECTLY. He fulfilled DIVINE righteousness, the only person ever to do so, and revealed Himself as totally righteouss and therefore divine.

++++++
Elijah here: Some teach that to fulfill the Law meant that Christ did away with it. So far in this posting you seem to be coming up on past this? And have made some headway over others [as 'i' see it.]?
What 'bugs' me is anyone posting this all as truth instead of what one thinks is truth. and that being taught for truth even voids out the last couple verses of Rev. 22's WARNING?? I don't BELIEVE it can do that! And as one continues on, there will no be doubt some 'teaching' for truth a different truth than this even????
++++++

So, enter the idea of a substitutionary atonement. The only sacrifice that would satisfy God was an absolutely spotless, sinless being. His own Son. Jesus was MADE A CURSE for us, to redeem us from the curse of the law.

Jesus was cursed BY GOD, made a curse for us when He hung him from the tree. Paul quotes Deuternomomy:

21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to
be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:​

21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in
any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of
God.. that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God
giveth thee for an inheritance.​

Paul takes this verse and pulls it from context to show a point. Jesus NEVER deserved to die like that. He didnt commit sin worthy of death but he was MADE SIN in our place and received the curse of God for us. So now all that believe in Him and understand what happened on the cross are saved by His shed blood by having His righteousness credited to our account and cloaking us in that sanctification in the eyes of God.

Does that mean the law is irrelevant for Christians today? God forbid! Study the law by all means. If you need to understand morality then the law is a great place to know what is an abomination in God's eyes. The law is not, however...a duty of Christians to follow. We dont need to keep the law. We are not in debt to follow the laws. None of that can save us.

+++++++
Elijah again: The Eccl. 12:13-14 verses do not agree with 'ALL' of this above statement. I highlited the false/teaching there as I see it, that your post is teaching for truth??
We are told ... 'Let us hear the Conclusion of the [WHOLE MATTER: Fear God AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, for this is the WHOLE [[DUTY]] OF MAN].

For God [SHALL BRING EVERY WORK] (this work of ours also friend!) into Judgement, with ..'
+++++++

If we know Jesus from the Gospels then we understand our King and are aware of what we need to do to please God. The commandments to love God and love others bears the entire weight of the moral law. This is surely enough for most people to understand what is required. If you require clarification on morality it is fine to go to the OT of course. The danger of Judaization as shown in Galatians is that Christians might feel that following Mosaic law somehow sanctifies them or justifies them in God's eyes. This is false...and is a heresy.

++++++
Me again: This sounds again that you are gaining in 'your' teaching game of horseshoes. Again the highlite has your 'teaching' that Gods Eternal Law has anything much to do with the law of Moses is what you yourself have now done.. HERESY. Both laws are SEPERATE laws. One Eternal as you say, and the other from Moses 'pen' written even.. in a book & placed [in the side of the Ark] & not INSIDE WITH THE ETERNAL TEN, and you are mingling Eternal Truth with satan's error! And not only that of Moses stuff in Gal. (see Gal. 3:19) but also Acts 15 has it as does Col. Eph. +!
++++++

Understand the miracle of Jesus being able to fulfill those divine standards. Then read the NT and see how the law was given in order for Jesus to fulfill it and the wonderful saving Grace that is imputed to us through faith in Christ (Grace by faith having always been the sole vehicle for salvation from the Abrahamic covenant onwards).

Doc.

Me again:
OK: You are on PROBATION! (PAROLE) Christ is your Judge + High Priest [[STILL!]] And you are not Heb. 11 DEAD IN THE FAITH yet, and are still not JUDGED past today Yet! And now you do say that you are a sinner & that best as I can see, (?) you tell us that you are saved 'IN' Sin & not FROM SIN??? Then we see that I said this just for all to THINK! Because this was not what you said, was it??

You do imply that you are on a type of PROBATION, & that all is well. And that when you sin knowingly such as you teaching for truth, false stuff, then you are still on probation?? And that is not truth without any confession & FORSAKING of the sin that you had broken. And even with the [SIN] not being put away after confession, in time you will be so sin riddled that the Holy Spirit cannot even move you. (and I say you meaning anyone forwards & backwards) Psalms 19:13 + James 1:15 + 1 John 5:16-17

 

[Strangelove]

Me again:
OK: You are on PROBATION! (PAROLE) Christ is your Judge + High Priest [[STILL!]] And you are not Heb. 11 DEAD IN THE FAITH yet, and are still not JUDGED past today Yet! And now you do say that you are a sinner & that best as I can see, (?) you tell us that you are saved 'IN' Sin & not FROM SIN??? Then we see that I said this just for all to THINK! Because this was not what you said, was it??

You do imply that you are on a type of PROBATION, & that all is well. And that when you sin knowingly such as you teaching for truth, false stuff, then you are still on probation?? And that is not truth without any confession & FORSAKING of the sin that you had broken. And even with the [SIN] not being put away after confession, in time you will be so sin riddled that the Holy Spirit cannot even move you. (and I say you meaning anyone forwards & backwards) Psalms 19:13 + James 1:15 + 1 John 5:16-17

14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

 

[Adstar]

The OT Law and all laws of this world have 2 parts.

The actual Law. Example:
You shall not commit adultry.


And the penalty of the Law:
‘The man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.


So is the curse of the Law the Law itself?
Or is the curse of the Law the penalty for breaking it?

Something for you all to ponder in your hearts.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Oats]

A good summary of what morality is

"The evolution of morality refers to the emergence of human moral behavior over the course of human evolution. Morality can be defined as a system of ideas about right and wrong conduct. In everyday life, morality is typically associated with human behavior and not much thought is given to the social conducts of other creatures. The emerging fields of evolutionary biology and in particular sociobiology have demonstrated that, though human social behaviors are complex, the precursors of human morality can be traced to the behaviors of many other social animals. Sociobiological explanations of human behavior are still controversial. The traditional view of social scientists has been that morality is a construct, and is thus culturally relative, although others argue that there is a science of morality."
Source

The Moral Law tells us the tune we have to play, our instincts are merely the keys.- C.S. Lewis

The thing that tells you which note needs to be played on the piano cannot itself be that note.- C.S. Lewis -Mere Christianity-

?

 

[Strangelove]

The OT Law and all laws of this world have 2 parts.

The actual Law. Example:
You shall not commit adultry.


And the penalty of the Law:
‘The man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.


So is the curse of the Law the Law itself?
Or is the curse of the Law the penalty for breaking it?

Something for you all to ponder in your hearts.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

If you are 'of the works of the law' means living in the law. Making it your duty to KEEP the law. If you do that you are under a curse. And the reason is because NO ONE can keep the law. We are all sinners and anyone who doesnt keep the law PERFECTLY is cursed. So being bound to the law is a curse. You are cursing yourself by attempting to keep it for righteousness sake (justification).

3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for
it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things
which are written in the book of the law to do them.​

So to answer your question, the law itself is not evil but it is a curse to those who try to keep it to gain sanctification. Becasue they set themselves an impossible task.

 

[Elijah674]

If you are 'of the works of the law' means living in the law. Making it your duty to KEEP the law. If you do that you are under a curse. And the reason is because NO ONE can keep the law. We are all sinners and anyone who doesnt keep the law PERFECTLY is cursed. So being bound to the law is a curse. You are cursing yourself by attempting to keep it for righteousness sake (justification).

3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for
it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things
which are written in the book of the law to do them.​

So to answer your question, the law itself is not evil but it is a curse to those who try to keep it to gain sanctification. Becasue they set themselves an impossible task.

You say.. 'So to answer your question, the law itself is not evil but it is a curse...'

First: You best re/read Rev. last couple verses of WARNING!

Christ said it differently! Matt.23:3
ALL THEREFORE....Observe & DO! [BUT DO NOT AFTER THEIR WORKS], for THEY SAY, [AND DO NOT!].

And He was not talking about any 'books' of the law! Isa. 28:10 first part! What get's me is your mentioned 'CURSE WORDS!' You say out of one side of your post
that the Lords law IS A CURSE???? And then you talk of LOVE IN OTHER POSTS! Which way is it?? And you talk about me being confused?????? Read Psalms 19!

You are telling us that God puts into the Born Again ones heart & mind a Eternal Law that is NOT GOOD, but IS A CURSE?? Deut. 4:12-14 finds BOTH! But they are not ALL the writting of God!

And NO, your POSTING PROBLEMS ARE NOT KNOWING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ETERNAL LAW, and the Gal. 3:19 added laws of Moses!

--Elijan

 

[Strangelove]

You say.. 'So to answer your question, the law itself is not evil but it is a curse...'

First: You best re/read Rev. last couple verses of WARNING!

Christ said it differently! Matt.23:3
ALL THEREFORE....Observe & DO! [BUT DO NOT AFTER THEIR WORKS], for THEY SAY, [AND DO NOT!].

And He was not talking about any 'books' of the law! Isa. 28:10 first part! What get's me is your mentioned 'CURSE WORDS!' You say out of one side of your post
that the Lords law IS A CURSE???? And then you talk of LOVE IN OTHER POSTS! Which way is it?? And you talk about me being confused?????? Read Psalms 19!

You are telling us that God puts into the Born Again ones heart & mind a Eternal Law that is NOT GOOD, but IS A CURSE?? Deut. 4:12-14 finds BOTH! But they are not ALL the writting of God!

And NO, your POSTING PROBLEMS ARE NOT KNOWING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ETERNAL LAW, and the Gal. 3:19 added laws of Moses!

--Elijan

If you are of the works of the law then you are under a curse. It is scripture that says this not I.

By all means give us your interpretation of this verse, as plainly as you possibly can would be preferable.

If you want to cherry pick scripture about Jesus making a point about the Pharisees to the JEWS and about how they shouldn't be doing stuff that goes against scripture BEFORE HE WENT TO THE CROSS and then try to apply that scripture to us Christians who live by the LAW OF LIBERTY ONLY which is love, then you are the YOKEMEISTER.

If you want to yoke yourself in bondage to the law then you can curse yourself all you want.

 

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If you are 'of the works of the law' means living in the law. Making it your duty to KEEP the law. If you do that you are under a curse. And the reason is because NO ONE can keep the law. We are all sinners and anyone who doesnt keep the law PERFECTLY is cursed. So being bound to the law is a curse. You are cursing yourself by attempting to keep it for righteousness sake (justification).

3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for
it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things
which are written in the book of the law to do them.

So to answer your question, the law itself is not evil but it is a curse to those who try to keep it to gain sanctification. Becasue they set themselves an impossible task.

I agree. I am not a justification through law keeping believer.

But we got to make a distinction when we give that message. Because if we are not careful we can come across as saying that the law itself is something evil. That it is ok to steal, kill and commit adultery. That’s the kind of accusation that some laid on Paul.

If we just say the Law is a Curse and just leave it at that, then many people who naturally feel the law is good will automatically switch off to any other message you have to give and resist you all the way to the end.

What i am trying to do with these questions and words is trying to bridge the gap in understanding that seems to exist between those contributing to these type of discussions.

I hope i am helping in that area.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Strangelove]

I agree. I am not a justification through law keeping believer.

But we got to make a distinction when we give that message. Because if we are not careful we can come across as saying that the law itself is something evil. That it is ok to steal, kill and commit adultery. That’s the kind of accusation that some laid on Paul.

If we just say the Law is a Curse and just leave it at that, then many people who naturally feel the law is good will automatically switch off to any other message you have to give and resist you all the way to the end.

What i am trying to do with these questions and words is trying to bridge the gap in understanding that seems to exist between those contributing to these type of discussions.

I hope i am helping in that area.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Exaclty. Balance is critical. Antimonianism is not my game.

 

[Adstar]

Thats the first time i heard it had a name "Antimonianism". I knew that doctrine existed but i never knew it had a name, i learn something new today

thanks Strangelove.