Moral Law

[jasoncran]

I'm with Strangelove. I think those that don't believe you can be righteous without the law, are putting the law first. When you know Him and choose to follow Him, whom you know, you die to the law and live in Him. That is, by becoming like Him you will live righteously without necessarily having known the law.

how. by that thinking we shouldnt even study the word!

why then did the man paul says study the word to show thyself approved by God.

God doesnt supernatural impose his word on us, yes he gain but there's this

my people perish for lack of KNOWLEDGE.

if you say that God justs informs the whole bible to persons without reading the bible then why also do we witness or why did Paul say that faith cometh by the hearing of the word and the word by the preaching of it????

 

[Strangelove]

how. by that thinking we shouldnt even study the word!

why then did the man paul says study the word to show thyself approved by God.

God doesnt supernatural impose his word on us, yes he gain but there's this

my people perish for lack of KNOWLEDGE.

if you say that God justs informs the whole bible to persons without reading the bible then why also do we witness or why did Paul say that faith cometh by the hearing of the word and the word by the preaching of it????

So by your thinking every Christian needs to read the torah cover to cover and memorize every single statute in the Mosaic levitical law otherwise they just have no idea about what is morally correct and are incapable of repenting from sin???

 

[jasoncran]

you laugh at that but yes , otherwise why read the bible or have it?

rip out the entire ot you dont like and follow on what you do like. is that why God wrote the bible? to

is it needed for salvation , no but its in the bible for a reason.

to understand what the bible says what it says.

study the bible to show thyself approved, so learning what the word says is bad to you?

THIS ISNT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION BUT SO THAT YOU CAN ANSWER THE LIES OF THE DEVIL OR ALSO THE ATTACKS AGAINST THE BIBLE.

YOU never even told me why its a sin to be in polygamist marriage
after all i could love the lord and stay married to my wives and love them all and still be right in my mind with God where is the verse in the bible that says its sin

or abortion? yes there is a verse that is close to that.

or slavery(conceptual against in nt)
or the others things that a non western person doesnt know not to do.

rape, and etc.

 

[Strangelove]

you laugh at that but yes , otherwise why read the bible or have it?

rip out the entire ot you dont like and follow on what you do like. is that why God wrote the bible? to

is it needed for salvation , no but its in the bible for a reason.

to understand what the bible says what it says.

study the bible to show thyself approved, so learning what the word says is bad to you?

THIS ISNT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION BUT SO THAT YOU CAN ANSWER THE LIES OF THE DEVIL OR ALSO THE ATTACKS AGAINST THE BIBLE.

YOU never even told me why its a sin to be in polygamist marriage
after all i could love the lord and stay married to my wives and love them all and still be right in my mind with God where is the verse in the bible that says its sin

or abortion? yes there is a verse that is close to that.

or slavery(conceptual against in nt)
or the others things that a non western person doesnt know not to do.

rape, and etc.

The entirety of the moral law either hangs on two commandments or it doesnt. Yes or no?

22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as
thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.​

After Jesus said this, no man could say anything to Him. They were dumbfounded.

Love is the fulfillment of moral law. It's divine genius.

Show me a moral law in the OT that isn't covered by love?

 

[jasoncran]

The entirety of the moral law either hangs on two commandments or it doesnt. Yes or no?

22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as
thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.​

After Jesus said this, no man could say anything to Him. They were dumbfounded.

Love is the fulfillment of moral law. It's divine genius.

Show me a moral law in the OT that isn't covered by love?

ok then i can love more then one wife after its love is it not?

ok then i can love a man like a man after all that is love

do you really see what that means

if you love god, and then your neighbor then you will want to be like God and learn his commandment and then do them as you to your neighbor

so i can take a live to save one?

that isnt murder to me but saving one life


nice,some how magically you will know that pre-marital sex is bad by that one verse?
and so on.

loving God means that you will do what he commanded to do not just read one or two commandments and do them all by knowing christ.

not all know the western rules that are BASED or influenced on christianity.ie the chinese or outlandish culture where rape is ok, or islam where women are treated as second class.

 

[Strangelove]

ok then i can love more then one wife after its love is it not?

ok then i can love a man like a man after all that is love

do you really see what that means

if you love god, and then your neighbor then you will want to be like God and learn his commandment and then do them as you to your neighbor

so i can take a live to save one?

that isnt murder to me but saving one life

How do I know that all those things are sinful having never read OT law?

nice,some how magically you will know that pre-marital sex is bad by that one verse?
and so on.

loving God means that you will do what he commanded to do not just read one or two commandments and do them all by knowing christ.

Loving God means doing what Jesus and His Apostles commanded us to do. They never told us to follow Mosaic law. The opposite in fact. We were told to cast it away.

If you were at the Jerusalem council in Acts, and the topic came up of whether to instruct the Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses....what woud 1st Serg. Jason Cran say?

15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which
believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to
command them to keep the law of Moses.​

a) Yes, tell them to keep the law.
b) Tell them to freely sin.
c) Don't tell them to keep the law it will be like a yoke around their necks. We'll just write some letters reminding them of the absolute basics and that together with the Gospel message will be fine.

not all know the western rules that are BASED or influenced on christianity.ie the chinese or outlandish culture where rape is ok, or islam where women are treated as second class.

:

 

[jasoncran]

uh , hello these are based on the mosiac law?

romans 1 and its listes of sins that are worthy of death.

the nt builds on the ot and it changes not the standard by which we live. but the power which we find ourselves doing

you are confused then on that. the law is the standard to which we adhere to and the lord gives us the strength.

one cant commit murder and think that he will make it to heaven.

the apostle paul never said the law was done away with only fulfilled. you say we dont need to follow the commandments

therefore i can lie, kill, rape and so forth

and get a way with as long as i love jesus.

that is what you are apearing to tell the audience.

i'm not even talking about the dietary laws at this point but the basic ten commandments

so if we only teach them the first commandment and second commandment

and my warped version of love is that i can beat and injure my wife is that Ok?

or rape her as in my country that is legal(nigeria)

for arugment sake.

and kill as in abortion as that too is legal.

 

[Strangelove]

Jason, please choose one of the following:

a) Yes, tell them to keep the law.
b) Tell them to freely sin.
c) Don't tell them to keep the law it will be like a yoke around their necks. We'll just write some letters reminding them of the absolute basics and that together with the Gospel message will be fine.
d) ?? (write your own)

 

[jasoncran]

Jason, please choose one of the following:

a) Yes, tell them to keep the law.
b) Tell them to freely sin.
c) Don't tell them to keep the law it will be like a yoke around their necks. We'll just write some letters reminding them of the absolute basics and that together with the Gospel message will be fine.
d) ?? (write your own)

lol,.the basics are the ten commandments

that is alll. we get jesus he gives us the strength we do as the lord commanded by reading the entire book. and also where did the paul get his commands they that do theses things shall not inherite the kingdom?

as listed here in galatians 5:18-2218But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery,(7th commmandment) fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry(1st commandment) witchcraft, hatred,variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings(10th here), murders(6th here), drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


interesting that at a glance i found the ten commandments in part here.

now then we should throw away the bible as a whole. no reading of the ot books of genesis and also any of the others? or what of revalation that refers to genesis.

the bible is it is it not profitable as a whole.

you will also find the entire beatitudes in the ot. interesting that moses had a deep level of relationship that he even said this circumcised the foreskin of of your heart and be no more stiff necked,

and paul echoed that

who is he that is a jew but one that is one inwardly for circumsiion is not of the flesh but of the heart, for verily the circumicision of the flesh profitethn nothing.

but alas moses what did he know.

 

[Strangelove]

lol,.the basics are the ten commandments

that is alll. we get jesus he gives us the strength we do as the lord commanded by reading the entire book. and also where did the paul get his commands they that do theses things shall not inherite the kingdom?

as listed here in galatians 5:18-2218But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery,(7th commmandment) fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry(1st commandment) witchcraft, hatred,variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings(10th here), murders(6th here), drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


interesting that at a glance i found the ten commandments in part here.

So if we just read the NT is that enough for us? Morally?

Us who with faith have the law written on our hearts?

now then we should throw away the bible as a whole. no reading of the ot books of genesis and also any of the others? or what of revalation that refers to genesis.

the bible is it is it not profitable as a whole.

you will also find the entire beatitudes in the ot. interesting that moses had a deep level of relationship that he even said this circumcised the foreskin of of your heart and be no more stiff necked,

and paul echoed that

who is he that is a jew but one that is one inwardly for circumsiion is not of the flesh but of the heart, for verily the circumicision of the flesh profitethn nothing.

but alas moses what did he know.

Reading the OT is fine budski.

Much learning to be had there I'm sure.

 

[jasoncran]

So if we just read the NT is that enough for us? Morally?

Us who with faith have the law written on our hearts?



Reading the OT is fine budski.

Much learning to be had there I'm sure.

then why are assuming that ashua and i are saying something otherwise?

and the law is written in all mens heart so that men dont have an excuse read up on romans and learn.

for the gentiles are a law unto themselves
and that law is the tendency to know that something is wrong even if its legal to do it.

the how part of sinning isnt in us when we are born, we learn to sin and what Good is.

 

[WIP]

I'm not sure you quite understand my point, Jason. Once you know Jesus, not just who he is but really know Him, you also know the law. You don't need it in writing. Ho:6:6: For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

There was reference to this verse on more than one occasion in the NT as well and by Jesus himself.

 

[jasoncran]

I'm not sure you quite understand my point, Jason. Once you know Jesus, not just who he is but really know Him, you also know the law. You don't need it in writing. Ho:6:6: For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

There was reference to this verse on more than one occasion in the NT as well and by Jesus himself.

lol, you referenced the ot and also why then quote the bible?

after all its already in us.

that is your position.

i as an former occultist i dont trust my tendency to listen to voices or instincts as the word is the bases.

the word is what keeps you, we need to read it.

yes we will be found doing the law but what is the about of teaching the bible if its in us totally?
btw no man in christianity told me a sin i was in was sin, i know from reading the bible and the hs telling me such and a friend confronted me lead by the h.s.

but it all was still found in reference written down as a thing i ought not to be in.

 

[Ashua]

Doc....

I do not believe we are REQUIRED to keep the Law of Moses as an whole in order to be saved.

The earliest Christians under the wing of Paul were not told that they must be scholars of the Tanahk. Far be it from me to not learn from the example set by Paul. What came to the gentiles first? The Holy Spirit, or faith? Did circumcision come before the Holy Spirit? If they have the Holy Spirit, will circumcision perfect upon perfection? So it is evident that I am not saying that keeping or even understanding the written Law of Moses is a REQUIREMENT for salvation.

The Word of God says that if you keep the whole Law and yet offend in the least of them, you are guilty of all. Again, it says, if a man keeps the Law, he is a debtor to the WHOLE Law, to do them. I find an enigma in this. If we keep the Law of "love the LORD thy God" with all of thine heart soul and might; and the LAW to "Love one another as I have loved you," then aren't we debtors to do so much more; chiefly to the honor of God and deeds to the benediction of our brothers? Again, you have said by the words of Jeremiah, the Law will be put in our hearts and Paul speaking by the Spirit says: when gentiles having not the Law do by nature the things contained in the Law... that we Christians do in a sense keep the Law as a part of our natural operations. Not that we consciencely strive to keep the Law, only that we do without even thinking about it.

Wherefore shall we then be stagnant in our faith? Because we have complacency with the basic requirements of salvation; confessing our sins and trusting in Christ? No, mature Christians ween themselves from milk and take on meatier matters. You have said we do not even have to HEAR the Law/Old Testament. Well, as I said for salvation, no we do not. But the Scriptures time and time again compel us to. The verses which Paul and James say "Not the hearers (only) but the doers of the Law shall be justified." --These are clear commands to read them for yourself. To GROW in your understanding. To edify your soul and to enhance your worship.

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." -John 5:39 Positive command.

There is so much to be learned from the Old Testament. Symbolically, Morally, Spiritually, Historically, Escatologically... Oh, and then there is the FACT that a MASSIVE percentage of the New Testament is direct referencing of the Old Testament. Have fun with refuting that. Stripped of Old Testament quotation, "narratives" (And Jesus went to... And They threw stones at Paul and Barnabus..), salutations/farewells: "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Yeshua the Messiah, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; )And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Yeshua the Messiah,", commentary on previously cited OT scripture (Such as Paul's elaboration on the "bond women" or Jesus arguing that "The LORD said unto my Lord sit thou down at my right hand until I make thy enemies thine footstool" is not talking about David, and the Revelation which is EXTREMELY similar to the Book of Ezekiel.

Remove those parts from the New testament and tell me how much of it is left.

 

[Elijah674]

The entirety of the moral law either hangs on two commandments or it doesnt. Yes or no?

22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as
thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.​

After Jesus said this, no man could say anything to Him. They were dumbfounded.

Love is the fulfillment of moral law. It's divine genius.

Show me a moral law in the OT that isn't covered by love?

Amen, but you are going nowhere with these guy's until moses law is ditched (Gal. 3:19) and the moral law that God wrote is understood. Deut. 31:9 + verse 24-26. Inside of the Ark are the two tables of stone. The First four are the ones that require Love to God, and the second 6 are the ones that require our duty to mankind. Moses sacrifical law was put [in the side of the Ark] and was finished at the cross. See Eccl. 12:13-14's WHOLE Duty.

 

[Lewis]

What is all this fuss about the OT in some of these posts' if it were not for the OT there would be no NT, period. And is the Moral law of the OT binding today, yes it is. Jesus went to the cross and did away with the sacrificial laws, but not knocking your neighbor in the head with a hammer still holds today, or if a person works for you, you are to pay him his proper wages still holds today, loving God with all your being still holds today. So what's all the fuss ?

 

[Strangelove]

then why are assuming that ashua and i are saying something otherwise?

Because when the question of righteousness comes up you shouldn't be pointing to Mosaic law which is dominated by a curse. The danger is that Christians will try to earn their justification by following the law and put themselved under the curse that Christ redeemed us from. We are justified by faith alone just like Abraham. You should be pointing to faith in Christ. Sola Fide. Faith = rebirth in the spirit = regeneration = repentance. Even if all you know is Christ and Him Crucified.

and the law is written in all mens heart so that men dont have an excuse read up on romans and learn.

for the gentiles are a law unto themselves
and that law is the tendency to know that something is wrong even if its legal to do it.

the how part of sinning isnt in us when we are born, we learn to sin and what Good is.

It's in us when we are born AGAIN.

 

[Strangelove]

Doc....

I do not believe we are REQUIRED to keep the Law of Moses as an whole in order to be saved.

The earliest Christians under the wing of Paul were not told that they must be scholars of the Tanahk. Far be it from me to not learn from the example set by Paul. What came to the gentiles first? The Holy Spirit, or faith? Did circumcision come before the Holy Spirit? If they have the Holy Spirit, will circumcision perfect upon perfection? So it is evident that I am not saying that keeping or even understanding the written Law of Moses is a REQUIREMENT for salvation.

The Word of God says that if you keep the whole Law and yet offend in the least of them, you are guilty of all. Again, it says, if a man keeps the Law, he is a debtor to the WHOLE Law, to do them. I find an enigma in this. If we keep the Law of "love the LORD thy God" with all of thine heart soul and might; and the LAW to "Love one another as I have loved you," then aren't we debtors to do so much more; chiefly to the honor of God and deeds to the benediction of our brothers?

Ok heres where your slipping up. You are binding yourself to the whole law by assuming that the simple Christian command of "love the LORD thy God" is PART of the LAW UNIT. It's not part of any set of laws for us. It's a commandment from our Sovereign King. Jesus didn't lay down the law for us. He fulfilled the law (which is what it was made for) and redeemed us from it.

You dont need to shackle that commandment of Jesus to the rest of the law and make yourslef a DEBTOR to it. The whole book of Galatians is about this very subject. Judaizers (which is a heresy) were coming in and saying that Christians can't be Christians without first being Jews and following the law. They were muddying the pure Gospel message of Justification through faith alone.

Again the story of the bondwoman and the cildren of the free explains all this perfectly. The children of the bondwoman are debtors to the law and we are told to cast that out. Why do you still want to be in debt?

Again, you have said by the words of Jeremiah, the Law will be put in our hearts and Paul speaking by the Spirit says: when gentiles having not the Law do by nature the things contained in the Law... that we Christians do in a sense keep the Law as a part of our natural operations. Not that we consciencely strive to keep the Law, only that we do without even thinking about it.

Correct. You keep flip flopping. :

Wherefore shall we then be stagnant in our faith? Because we have complacency with the basic requirements of salvation; confessing our sins and trusting in Christ? No, mature Christians ween themselves from milk and take on meatier matters. You have said we do not even have to HEAR the Law/Old Testament. Well, as I said for salvation, no we do not. But the Scriptures time and time again compel us to. The verses which Paul and James say "Not the hearers (only) but the doers of the Law shall be justified." --These are clear commands to read them for yourself. To GROW in your understanding. To edify your soul and to enhance your worship.

No your wrong. These are not commands to read Mosaic law. If Paul wanted to say that he would have said it clearly. He wanted to keep new Christians AWAY from the law. He coudn't have stated that very issue more clearly. It's the running theme of his letters. He goes overboard to stress that Mosaic law has nothing to do with Christian life.

3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is
evident: for, The just shall live by faith.​

Thats how we live and continue in all things. By FAITH. Taking the meat has nothing to do with studying and following the Mosaic law.

What do you mean by 'enhance your worship'? Are you saying that following the law somehow makes you more Holy or righteouss? This is called works based salvation and its a different Gospel.

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." -John 5:39 Positive command.

Oh dear. You think that Jesus is saying (in the positive) to search the scriptures to obtain eternal life? No my friend. He is saying YOU THINK you can obtain eternal life by searching anxiously the scriptures you silly scribes and Pharisees. But you are wrong because all those scriptures point to ME and the covenant of Grace. It is a scathing rebuke to be read in the indicative. As testified by the next few verses:

5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and
they are they which testify of me.
5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
5:41 I receive not honor from men.
5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.​

The rest of your post I dont need to address as it's the usual about how I wanna throw out the entire OT coz its worthless toilet paper. Which, of course, is just blatant misrepresentation. It's a Cranulation. ​

 

[Strangelove]

The Mosaic law ITSELF is a curse. Any man who puts himself under that law or in debt to that law is under that curse:

DEUT 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.​

The law requires PERFECT obediance. Any man who upholds the law and yet doesnt do the law perfectly is CURSED. The curse is part of the law. And Paul quotes from Deuteronomy:

GAL 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The law utterly CONDEMNS and curses anyone who lives under it.

In stark contrast to anyone who lives by faith. like faithful Abe who are BLESSED.

3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.​

 

[Strangelove]

btw no man in christianity told me a sin i was in was sin, i know from reading the bible and the hs telling me such and a friend confronted me lead by the h.s.

but it all was still found in reference written down as a thing i ought not to be in.

3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the
works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?​