TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
I understand that line of reason, but tell me, must there be a law to understand what is righteous? You can have no law and still have righteousness.
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Moral Law
- Thread starter Oats
- Start date
I understand that line of reason, but tell me, must there be a law to understand what is righteous? You can have no law and still have righteousness.
T
Theofilus
Guest
No, you can't have righteousness without the law. You can't have something that hasn't been defined. Take the traffic laws as an analogy. You and I both know that the right thing to do when you come to a red light is to come to a complete stop. But why do we know that? It's because we know the traffic laws, and they define what the rules of the road are. If there were no traffic laws, then we could still stop at red lights, but how would we know that that was right? How would we know that we aren't supposed to stop when the light is green and go when it turns red? The only way we can know what is right is to know the traffic laws.
It is the same with God's law. We could still do the things the law says, even though we didn't have a written copy of it, but we wouldn't know that those things are, indeed, "righteousness". How would we know that sex between two consenting siblings is wrong if the law didn't tell us that it's wrong? What about wife-swapping? Suppose you have two couples and all four people consent willingly to the swap. Whether they are "consenting adults" or not, the law says that it's adultery, and therefore sinful. But what if we didn't have a written moral code? How could we then say that it's righteous to be monogamous and that wife-swapping is wrong? The fact is that we couldn't. Those that reject God's standard of morality find nothing wrong with wife-swapping and even incest. When they do find something wrong with incest, it's usually just the increased possibility of birth defects, and that can be fixed by using condoms or with an abortion.
Without a written moral code, there would be no righteousness, both because we wouldn't have a definition of what is righteous, and also because, without a set of rules, people will just do whatever makes them feel good. Without the law, there would be no righteousness.
Sissy
Member
Amen.
Romans 3
(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
(28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
(28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
S
Strangelove
Guest
Yes you can.
2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without
law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the
law;
2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of
the law shall be justified.
2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the
things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law
unto themselves:
2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their
conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while
accusing or else excusing one another;)
2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ
according to my gospel.
law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the
law;
2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of
the law shall be justified.
2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the
things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law
unto themselves:
2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their
conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while
accusing or else excusing one another;)
2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ
according to my gospel.
Ashua
Member
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S
Strangelove
Guest
What comes to mind is that we believers in Christ DO the law NATURALLY, without even being given the law.
We are justified by doing the unseen law because of our faith.
If you see someone hearing/reading law and not seeing the fruit in their life then they are not justified.
If you see the right fruit then you dont even need to worry what they are reading. The fruit is there through faith. Grace brings repentance.
What you dont understand is that we Christians DO the law. We absolutely obey God's commandments WITHOUT hearing the written law which was given to the Hebrews.
Isn't it amazing?
S
Strangelove
Guest
I'm curious what comes to mind when you read this:
4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a
bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he
of the freewoman was by promise.
4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the
one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is
Agar.
4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem
which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth
and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more
children than she which hath an husband.
4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that
was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman
and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with
the son of the freewoman.
4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of
the free.
What is the yoke being talked of below?
15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of
the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
What is the bondage talked of below?
2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came
in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus,
that they might bring us into bondage:
bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he
of the freewoman was by promise.
4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the
one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is
Agar.
4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem
which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth
and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more
children than she which hath an husband.
4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that
was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman
and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with
the son of the freewoman.
4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of
the free.
What is the yoke being talked of below?
15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of
the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
What is the bondage talked of below?
2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came
in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus,
that they might bring us into bondage:
How do we receive the promise...law or faith alone?
3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a
curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a
tree:
3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through
Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit
through faith.
Do you believe that Pauls letters are God breathed scripture?
If you say yes, how can you reconcile these passages with your position?
curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a
tree:
3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through
Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit
through faith.
Do you believe that Pauls letters are God breathed scripture?
If you say yes, how can you reconcile these passages with your position?
Ashua
Member
What is my position?
S
Strangelove
Guest
2 moves away from checkmate?
Ashua
Member
No, if you saw my activity on these forums, in the particular threads I have been engaged in for the past 48 hours, coupled with my school work, and the fact that it is 3:23 A.M., you would be able to understand when I say that I am both physically and mentally exhausted. I would advise against flattering yourself.
Your arguments are not even close to "checkmate", for instance, you twist scriptures such as the one you posted which says we are redeemed from the CURSE OF the Law, and not the Law itself. You ignore the "doing" parts of the verses you posted, which I highlighted. You spiritualize it away by going on about how you fulfill these laws in spirit in the same breath that you campaign against such terrible laws as thou shalt not kill and thou shalt not commit adultery under the moniker of "Noachide". I just prefer not fulfill the definition of insanity by continuing to swim against the current with you.
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S
Strangelove
Guest
Whats the difference?
No, we fulfill these laws in real life. It's our fruit. Scripture shows the fruit is born naturally through faith. We DO the law without the law. How am I ignoring the "doing" parts?
Oops you forgot the 'Establish religious COURTS of law' bit........again. This really is your only comeback isn't it? To paint New Testament Christians as railing against moral law. Arn't you gonna finish what you started and show me where all the Noahide laws are in the Bible?
Probably coz whenver you engage me you end up with no leg to stand on.
Heres your position bud. Whenever the question of Christian righteousness comes up, you always point to old covenant law instead of pointing to the liberty from the law that we have in our Saviour Jesus Christ who redeemed us from that curse.
2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came
in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus,
that they might bring us into bondage:
Ashua
Member
The difference in saying that:
We are redeemed from the CURSE of the Law.
and
We are redeemed from the Law.
Is the direct object of the sentence. The direct object is not Law, but curse.
What is the curse of the Law? Is it the Law itself? Or perhaps maybe it just might be a characteristic attributed to the Law?
What is the "curse of the Law"? It is condemnation to the second death. "For the wages of sin is death." and as John says, "Sin is transgression of the Law."
So, we are not redeemed from the Law itself, per se; but from the PENALTY associated with transgressing it.
Let me plug in different words in the same sentence structure:
We are washed from the stain of sin.
It is not the actual sin that is erased, but the stain left by it. We still sinned. That is a fact. God's record of that sin is what is wiped away.
Nothing to argue with here.
Yeah, Im going to scour the Bible at 4:39 A.M. to find all seven proofs of the Noachide Laws.
Here is a token in lull of your request for tonight:
lol k.
You cannot define light without darkness, or life without death. You cannot appreciate liberty until you have been under bondage.
You said that you believe doing the works of the Law is a "fruit" of the Spirit. If you have the Spirit, you will do the things contained in the Law automatically. Maybe we have a misunderstanding of what I mean by obeying God's Law?
And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. -2 Peter 3:15-16
S
Strangelove
Guest
Right so you have the understanding that we are free from the curse of the law. So what is it that you are insisting? That gentiles study and still attempt to keep the OT written law? Do you want us to follow that set of laws that were not even given to gentiles?
Or are gentiles a law unto themselves?
Why are you ignoring the rest of the scripture I posted?
What is the yoke? what is the bondage not to be put around the necks of the gentiles?
9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal
Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience
from dead works to serve the living God?
Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience
from dead works to serve the living God?
What is dead works referred to here?
Great why dont you post those in the relevant thread and we can discuss what they mean and whether they were commanded by God to Noah in their covenant.
So you want us to be under bondage then? To teach us a lesson? Why would you desire such a thing when it is the SPIRIT that quikenith us?
4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of
God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,
whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,
whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
We are told to CAST OUT the bondwoman. What does that mean to you? what is the bondwoman and her son?
4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman
and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with
the son of the freewoman.
and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with
the son of the freewoman.
Maybe we do. Please explain what you mean by obeying God's Law.
At the moment your stance seems to be that Christians are still to keep the OT written code except only the punishments are not applicable anymore.
I'm saying that Christians are not even required to READ the OT written law to understand what is righteouss and morally good.
If all we know is the story of Christ and Him crucified then that is enough to be Christian.
I'm keeping it simple dude. We don't need to mess with any written laws.
Doc.
jasoncran
Member
so its bad to then to decide for yourself that you want to follow the ot dietary laws or instead of celebrating the pagan holiday of christmasm but rather chanukah(jesus celebrated this) and also the others feasts?
i'm mean that the dietary laws, they would make on healthy and keep you healthy now would they? after all there just bunnk and God what does he know?
i'm mean that the dietary laws, they would make on healthy and keep you healthy now would they? after all there just bunnk and God what does he know?
S
Strangelove
Guest
So you wanna say to all Christians you have to keep the 613 statutes and laws in the OT or your condemned to hell? You want to deprive people of making their own choices of keeping written laws or simply loving God and others?
I guess Paul wasn't a follower of Christ and was just some bloke who went around telling people not to worry about Hebrew law eh? what did he know? He was just some heretic then I guess? Whats does God know appointing THAT guy to be an apostle?
(**Crans the Cranster**) ooh yeah.
jasoncran
Member
where did you get that from that post.
how is one to know what the lord commands to us to when he siad this
if ye love my keep my commandments?
list his commandments in the bible. from the gospel ALONE, and then compare them from the ot and you might see what i actually said.
if i was a muslim, and had 5 wives and came to christ, but what verses can you tell me that i'm in sin.
if i was a gay men where in the bible is my life a sin?
if was a witch where in the bible is it a sin?
and if as a christian doth these things how can you tell me that i'm wrong
the moral law doesnt save and never was meant to but for the christian its a guide for the believer to live by and to be able to please god
whats wrong with taking the ten commandments and say lord hear is where i fail you and i need to repent and help me change and line up with your word.
but i guess that's a sin to do as we dont need the law.
paul btw never makes the mistake you are, he said that the law was righteous and that we arent saved by it but were informed we need a sinner.
if you look at galatians 5 you will see that list of the flesh fruits and also fruits of the Spirit are all by example found in the ot as well and also that the many of that list of the flesh fruits is found in the ten commandments
stop puting word in mouth.
i said cleary that if a person volunteers to do the law ie celebrate a feast or what not that aint a sin.
as a christian i can celebrate the passover and thank God for what he did for the nation of isreal yrs ago(for if he didnt no JESUS)
but its not needed nor required that is all i said.
besides (easter has some pagan traditions to it, the egg thing came from the worship of ashtart! where we get the word easter from)
communion need not be on sunday after good friday.
in fact we could do it everday if we so choose.or once a month.
how is one to know what the lord commands to us to when he siad this
if ye love my keep my commandments?
list his commandments in the bible. from the gospel ALONE, and then compare them from the ot and you might see what i actually said.
if i was a muslim, and had 5 wives and came to christ, but what verses can you tell me that i'm in sin.
if i was a gay men where in the bible is my life a sin?
if was a witch where in the bible is it a sin?
and if as a christian doth these things how can you tell me that i'm wrong
the moral law doesnt save and never was meant to but for the christian its a guide for the believer to live by and to be able to please god
whats wrong with taking the ten commandments and say lord hear is where i fail you and i need to repent and help me change and line up with your word.
but i guess that's a sin to do as we dont need the law.
paul btw never makes the mistake you are, he said that the law was righteous and that we arent saved by it but were informed we need a sinner.
if you look at galatians 5 you will see that list of the flesh fruits and also fruits of the Spirit are all by example found in the ot as well and also that the many of that list of the flesh fruits is found in the ten commandments
stop puting word in mouth.
i said cleary that if a person volunteers to do the law ie celebrate a feast or what not that aint a sin.
as a christian i can celebrate the passover and thank God for what he did for the nation of isreal yrs ago(for if he didnt no JESUS)
but its not needed nor required that is all i said.
besides (easter has some pagan traditions to it, the egg thing came from the worship of ashtart! where we get the word easter from)
communion need not be on sunday after good friday.
in fact we could do it everday if we so choose.or once a month.
S
Strangelove
Guest
Ya...its not nice when people do that is it?
E
Elijah674
Guest
Would you say that it breaks a moral law? 2 Cor. 4:2
S
Strangelove
Guest
I would say yes without even looking at your verse good sir.
I'm with Strangelove. I think those that don't believe you can be righteous without the law, are putting the law first. When you know Him and choose to follow Him, whom you know, you die to the law and live in Him. That is, by becoming like Him you will live righteously without necessarily having known the law.