More potential arguments vs the Bible

[KV-44-v1]

Scenario: An athiest investigated ex Christians beliefs and asked what they thought they had against the Bible. Here are some arguments:

"So, if we accept God's Gift of salvation that He offers to all, then we are doing a WORK!! ACCEPTING is the work!
Or, is free will gone at some point??"

"If God is not the Author of confusion, why did He confuse the Babel people's language! And then explain Genesis 1:2! "

"If God desires ALL to be saved, then why did He harden pharoah's heart??"

"Can God make a better way to be saved than by the Gospel He laid out in the NT? If not He would not be Omnipotent, and if He could but refused to, would He be morally bad? Again, your Book says that HE DESIRES ALL TO BE SAVED. All! Btw, better way means more quantity of people saved!"

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Let's take a look here KV-44-V1.

"So, if we accept God's Gift of salvation that He offers to all, then we are doing a WORK!! ACCEPTING is the work!
Or, is free will gone at some point??" Quote from KV-44-V1

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

"Whosoever believeth" Believing in Jesus is not a work.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God has given us the faith to believe. Our belief, then, is an acknowledgement of the gift that Jesus has given us.


"If God is not the Author of confusion, why did He confuse the Babel people's language! And then explain Genesis 1:2! " Quote from KV-44-V1

You are taking "God is not the Author of confusion" out of context. Paul wrote that as it pertains to the proper use of gifts in a church service.
God did not confuse the people of Babel. He confounded them, and scattered them.
I don't understand what Genesis 1:2 has to do with this.

"If God desires ALL to be saved, then why did He harden pharaoh's heart??" Quote from KV-44-V1

Salvation was not the goal for God, concerning Pharaoh.

"Can God make a better way to be saved than by the Gospel He laid out in the NT?" Quote from KV-44-V1

No.
Jesus dying on the cross for our sins was the only way.
How do we know this?

Luke 22:41-42 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Jesus asked for a different way. There was no other way. I hope this helps you.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Who Me]

Here are some arguments:

Very poor arguments.
Yes to believe something can take mental effort, so could be classed as work, but that work is not anything that gains one merit. It is simply belief.

As Josef said God wants order in worship, service and in Christian lives.
Those in babel were not serving or obeying God, quite the contrary.

Pharaoh, not everyone is going to be saved.
Interesting that these atheist, know that there is a God, know the consequences of rejecting God's salvation, yet will not turn from their evil.

A better way is irrelevant if they will not consider it and all can mean every one or all in a set group.

May I suggest you ask them for their evidence behind their reasons for not accepting God's salvation?

 

[KV-44-v1]

Salvation was not the goal for God, concerning Pharaoh.

So mabye God, in His Omniscience, knew that even if He softened his heart, he would still willfully misuse his freewill. So basically God gave pharoah what he wanted.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Jesus dying on the cross for our sins was the only way.
How do we know this?

Luke 22:41-42 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Jesus asked for a different way. There was no other way.

But this could be used as an argument against God's Omnipotence.
Then you could say "Ah, but it could contradict an Attribute of God, if done by any other way. And God will never go against Himself."

But then they could say, "WHICH Attribute(s)?"
Then: "Any."

 

[KV-44-v1]

So, if we accept God's Gift of salvation that He offers to all, then we are doing a WORK!! ACCEPTING is the work!
Or, is free will gone at some point??" Quote from KV-44-V1

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

"Whosoever believeth" Believing in Jesus is not a work.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God has given us the faith to believe. Our belief, then, is an acknowledgement of the gift that Jesus has given us.

Yes, the "person" argued that ACCEPTING the Gift, USING your freewill, was the work.

""How do we accept the Gift, if not using our freewill?""

I think Ephesians is saying that GRACE is the Gift of God. I know that salvation is a gift.

 

[Josef]

Yes, the "person" argued that ACCEPTING the Gift, USING your freewill, was the work.

""How do we accept the Gift, if not using our freewill?""

I think Ephesians is saying that GRACE is the Gift of God. I know that salvation is a gift.

Hey All,
Adams and Eve execised their free will.
And look where we are.
On our own, we cannot accept God's grace.
It is only through the faith God gives us that we can accept our salvation.
We hear the gospel.
That stimulates the faith we have been given.
Through the faith we have been given, we receive ears that hear (understand).
The gospel makes sense to us through this new understanding.
We respond to this new understanding by receiving Jesus as our Savior.

So tell me, in all of that, what work did you do that changes the gift of salvation into something you earned through work on your part?

When someone gives you a gift, do you consider said gift something you earned by receiving it?

I am sure you do not.

So you can see how absurd it is to equate receiving a gift to earning something by your labor.

Your argument is specious.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Josef]

So mabye God, in His Omniscience, knew that even if He softened his heart, he would still willfully misuse his freewill. So basically God gave pharoah what he wanted.

Hey All,
I believe you are on the right track with your conclusion here KV-44-V1.
Pharaohs were treated like gods.
Having been treated so, it would have been hard to accept someone telling him what he had to do with his slaves.
It would admit Pharaoh was not all-powerful.

We do not talk about it much because of God's lovingkindness. But God can reject people as well. That is what happened here in Exodus.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Eli1+]

Scenario: An athiest investigated ex Christians beliefs and asked what they thought they had against the Bible. Here are some arguments:

"So, if we accept God's Gift of salvation that He offers to all, then we are doing a WORK!! ACCEPTING is the work!
Or, is free will gone at some point??"

"If God is not the Author of confusion, why did He confuse the Babel people's language! And then explain Genesis 1:2! "

"If God desires ALL to be saved, then why did He harden pharoah's heart??"

"Can God make a better way to be saved than by the Gospel He laid out in the NT? If not He would not be Omnipotent, and if He could but refused to, would He be morally bad? Again, your Book says that HE DESIRES ALL TO BE SAVED. All! Btw, better way means more quantity of people saved!"

Not gonna lie to you but these questions sound a bit like a dumb atheist is asking about some dumb Protestant beliefs.
It's a mess.

 

[miamited]

Hi KV-44-v1

Of course, if we remember Peter's words about the writings of Holy writ, then we fully understand this phenomenon of unbelievers. And even those who have attached themselves for a time to the faith, that have then fallen away.

They distort the Scriptures. These are of the seed that landed among the briars and the hard earth. I can't imagine any born again believer to be either surprised or not understanding this phenomenon that you bring up. But as born again believers, we are asked to have compassion on them in their folly. And if they ask, then we should explain the reason for the hope that we have.

For the wise born again believer that may come against these complaints, they should rejoice that God has given them an opportunity to share in the building of His kingdom. Of course, our words don't always work in softening the heart of the unbelievers any more than Jesus' words were able to convict all of Israel, that he had preached to for some 3 years, or the truth of his words.

You see, a born again believer understands, as Peter did, that the words of the Scriptures are true. It isn't really a matter of whether or not they might understand a particular point, what the Scriptures say about that point are true. I consider that people who were once a part of us, but now aren't, never were. How can you really believe what the Scriptures say, that our eternal salvation only comes from God through His Son, Jesus... and then fall away from that. But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

You see, for those who have really understood the truth and the implication of that truth to all of mankind, they understand like Peter that there is nowhere else to go, if eternal life is what we seek. Those who fall away either don't understand the truth and validity of what they have been doing all of this time going to some church building, or they are willingly saying that they'd rather face eternal condemnation. I mean that's really the truth of anyone who once claimed to know the truth and God's Son, but now don't. There really isn't any other explanation for that occurrence.


God bless,
Ted

 

[Hopeful 2]

Scenario: An athiest investigated ex Christians beliefs and asked what they thought they had against the Bible. Here are some arguments:
"So, if we accept God's Gift of salvation that He offers to all, then we are doing a WORK!! ACCEPTING is the work!
Or, is free will gone at some point??"

My answer...So what ?
The only "works" written against are the works of the Law...ie., circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping, tithing, etc.

"If God is not the Author of confusion, why did He confuse the Babel people's language! And then explain Genesis 1:2! "

God isn't confused, but He can cause confusion.

"If God desires ALL to be saved, then why did He harden pharoah's heart??"

Pharaoh was a small cog in a much larger machine.
Had there been any chance at all that Pharaoh would have naturally freed the Jewish people, God wouldn't have been able to use him.

"Can God make a better way to be saved than by the Gospel He laid out in the NT? If not He would not be Omnipotent, and if He could but refused to, would He be morally bad? Again, your Book says that HE DESIRES ALL TO BE SAVED. All! Btw, better way means more quantity of people saved!"

"Saved" requires conversion first.
Folks won't submit to a loving Father, preferring their own godship; not realizing that instead of serving God, they are serving sin.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Not gonna lie to you but these questions sound a bit like a dumb atheist is asking about some dumb Protestant beliefs.
It's a mess.

Which "protestant beliefs"?
What about the fact that demons can dress up as dead saints?

 

[KV-44-v1]

Hi KV-44-v1

Of course, if we remember Peter's words about the writings of Holy writ, then we fully understand this phenomenon of unbelievers. And even those who have attached themselves for a time to the faith, that have then fallen away.

They distort the Scriptures. These are of the seed that landed among the briars and the hard earth. I can't imagine any born again believer to be either surprised or not understanding this phenomenon that you bring up. But as born again believers, we are asked to have compassion on them in their folly. And if they ask, then we should explain the reason for the hope that we have.

For the wise born again believer that may come against these complaints, they should rejoice that God has given them an opportunity to share in the building of His kingdom. Of course, our words don't always work in softening the heart of the unbelievers any more than Jesus' words were able to convict all of Israel, that he had preached to for some 3 years, or the truth of his words.

You see, a born again believer understands, as Peter did, that the words of the Scriptures are true. It isn't really a matter of whether or not they might understand a particular point, what the Scriptures say about that point are true. I consider that people who were once a part of us, but now aren't, never were. How can you really believe what the Scriptures say, that our eternal salvation only comes from God through His Son, Jesus... and then fall away from that. But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

You see, for those who have really understood the truth and the implication of that truth to all of mankind, they understand like Peter that there is nowhere else to go, if eternal life is what we seek. Those who fall away either don't understand the truth and validity of what they have been doing all of this time going to some church building, or they are willingly saying that they'd rather face eternal condemnation. I mean that's really the truth of anyone who once claimed to know the truth and God's Son, but now don't. There really isn't any other explanation for that occurrence.


God bless,
Ted

This doesnt answer the OP, but nice post.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Had there been any chance at all that Pharaoh would have naturally freed the Jewish people, God wouldn't have been able to use him.

This doesnt seem like a good rebuttal, and even seems like a oxymoron.

1. God wanted the Isrealites to be free in the 1st place.

2. It is easier and faster to get goals achieved from someone working FOR you than AGAINST you. So if Tyrant Pharoah's character were good enough to naturally free the people, then he would likely start serving God. Or at least submit more to His plans.

 

[miamited]

This doesnt answer the OP, but nice post.

Hi KV-44-v1

Well, the OP does mention ex-christians, and I'm making the point that ex-christians are generally going to be the people that Jesus spoke of as being the seed that fell on the hard soil and among the briars. That ex-christians are generally going to be people who don't really have in their heart and mind what the Scriptures teach because, there isn't any other place for them to go to gain eternal life. I just find it hard to believe that a person who aligned themselves as a christian and really believe what the Scriptures say, just willingly turning away and saying to themselves, "Well, I think I want to go to hell, so I'm not going to continue in this way."

God bless,
Ted

 

[Eli1+]

Which "protestant beliefs"?
What about the fact that demons can dress up as dead saints?

uhuh. Everything is an idol, except the Bible.

 

[miamited]

uhuh. Everything is an idol, except the Bible.

Hi Eli1+

Yes, and for some, even the Bible becomes an idol over the love for God that it teaches.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Hopeful 2]

This doesnt seem like a good rebuttal, and even seems like a oxymoron.

1. God wanted the Isrealites to be free in the 1st place.

2. It is easier and faster to get goals achieved from someone working FOR you than AGAINST you. So if Tyrant Pharoah's character were good enough to naturally free the people, then he would likely start serving God. Or at least submit more to His plans.

God wanted His glory known to the world.
He used what was at hand to manifest both His power and His love for His children.

 

[Eli1+]

Hi Eli1+

Yes, and for some, even the Bible becomes an idol over the love for God that it teaches.

God bless,
Ted

Exactly!

 

[stockwell]

Scenario: An athiest investigated ex Christians beliefs and asked what they thought they had against the Bible. Here are some arguments:

"So, if we accept God's Gift of salvation that He offers to all, then we are doing a WORK!! ACCEPTING is the work!
Or, is free will gone at some point??"

"If God is not the Author of confusion, why did He confuse the Babel people's language! And then explain Genesis 1:2! "

"If God desires ALL to be saved, then why did He harden pharoah's heart??"

"Can God make a better way to be saved than by the Gospel He laid out in the NT? If not He would not be Omnipotent, and if He could but refused to, would He be morally bad? Again, your Book says that HE DESIRES ALL TO BE SAVED. All! Btw, better way means more quantity of people saved!"

whats this mythical free will you mention
please explain what it is and the scriptural support for it