journeymanisnothing
Member
When you say "human works", you mean "something God didn't do." Right?
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More potential arguments vs the Bible
- Thread starter KV-44-v1
- Start date
journeymanisnothing
MemberBecause you see my friend, the Bible says Gcd created mankind, so atheists and theologians can forget about "any work of man" And
Gods work to mankind is clear in Genesis both before and after our parents fell. Whats the problem?
A careful reading shows a chronology most miss:
11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
13 And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said.
14 So the LORD said to Moses: "Pharaoh's heart is hard; he refuses to let the people go. (Exod. 7:11-14 NKJ)
By not restraining Satanic power to work miracles, God in effect sent Pharoah a "strong delusion" he could resist God and win.
But that was in response to Pharoah's choice to rebel against God, which he made when he called his magicians in to see if they could duplicate the miracle. Pharoah chose to pit "his gods" against the God of Gods. Pharoah hardened his own heart first when he chose to resist God's command.
Then God's sending the powerful Satanic energy that causes belief in falsehood, aka "hardening his heart" was in response to Pharoah's free will to reject the truth.
A parallel to this is here:
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess. 2:9-12 NKJ)
No "hardening energy" flows from God to human hearts, rather God orchestrates events so a person's preference, his free will choice seems possible. The magicians convinced Pharoah he could rebel against God's command, or at least fight Him to a draw. He took pleasure in unrighteousness.
God draws all men to Himself, but those who keep resisting reach a terminus where God stops drawing. They made their hearts hard, and then there is the judgment. God orchastrates events that make their hearts grow even harder.
The Creator reserves the right to use these "vessels of wrath" who take pleasure in unrighteousness, for His own purposes:
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom. 9:22-24 NKJ)
God never subverts His gift of free will. He does not desire the love of robots, what an abomination that would be!Last edited:
Carry_Your_Name
Member
But not all will be saved, the path is narrow.
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." (Matt. 7:13-14)
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. (Matt. 7:21)
He said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matt. 22:8-14)
That defense is built on a false assumption. Not all people want to BE saved.
He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” (Jn. 3:18-21)
It's rather a description from the perspective of God's absolute sovereignty, which the Jews ofter use. "God hardened" means God knows in advance but refuses to change Pharaoh's decision.
Exodus 8:32
But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.
That's why it is also said that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. The perspective of God's absolute sovereignty is often used by Jewish writers to describe the different situations.
This question is more like can God make a better equation than 1 + 1 = 2.
The atheists missed the big picture. On earth human faith is assessed for a reason. In Eden Adam fell due to 1) lacking faith in God, and 2) lacking obedience. Obedience is assessed through Law which human failed inevitably under the influence of Satan and his angels. The New Covenant is a standard established for the assessment of human faith (faith in Christ). To put it another way, faith is a crucial factor for humans to live with a sin-incompatible God in eternity (which we call Heaven).
Another poorly asked question. It's not about confusion, it's about how human's capability of speaking unique language is disabled.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
God gets his job done through "human works", he uses his people for his purposes, he can even make good things out of what bad people meant for evil.
Some Bible translations say that God "confused" the languages.
Ah, so "God hardened" is in the sense of "allowed his heart to harden".
What is the false assumption? Im assuming you think its "all want to be saved".
So then couldn't God make a way where people are unintentionally saved, but no forcing?
Like as if a door opens underneath someone and they fall a short distance onto a cloud below.
Athiest could ask: "Why doesn't God do that instead of what He has done in the Bible?"
Carry_Your_Name
Member
The "way" God made is the opposite - giving them up to what they want to teach them a lesson.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. (Rom. 1:24-25)
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess. 2:11-12)
Opposite of what?
And you only described/explained Bible verses, you didn't really answer the questions.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
You said it yourself that there's "no forcing", salvation by accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior must be a conscious, personal decision. I didn't answer because you contradicted yourself in your question.
That's actively accepting Jesus. You are assuming there's only two options.
But why don't you just get the Gospel, with no decisions made, but you aren't forced to either?
How it is: You have to accept the gift.
Force: God mindcontrols you to accept it or makes you with only the ability to accept it.
My scenario: God "drops" the Gift "in your lap" and you get saved.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
That's a scenario you totally made up. Playing religion is not salvation. "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
So you admit you have no answer to their challenge.
Part of 1 Peter 3:15
""but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, ....""
Carry_Your_Name
Member
The context of that is doing good work even when you're being reviled, suffering for the sake of righteousness, that has nothing to do with your "scenario".
Why didn't God use a way where we "get saved" with no force but also no need for willful acceptance of the Gift?
Use of non sequiturs will convince no one and make you look unable.
I think being able to stand back and examine your worldview is a good trait to have. And look at one's core assumptions, and be able to go, "What if <belief> wasn't this way?".
Carry_Your_Name
Member
There is no such a way, you don't accept God, you automatically accept the devil, unclean spirits sneak in without your awareness, it's like nature abhors a vacuum. And worst of all, this devil may be mistaken as God and worshipped as God, just like the Israelites with the golden calf.
“When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.” (Matt. 12:43-45)