mormonism

[proveallthings]

Interesting how you quote one early church father who is known for his aberrant teachings and then pluralize it as those many taught it. Something you keep neglecting is that Judaism is strictly monotheistic and that Christianity came from Judaism. Christianity always was and is strictly monotheistic. That some here and there may have had different thoughts on the matter doesn't change that. Arguing to Origen on this matter does not help your case.

You want more examples from early Christian Fathers? How's this?

Saint Irenaeus (ca. AD 115-202), who may justly be called the first Biblical theologian among the ancient Christians, was a disciple of the great Polycarp, who was a direct disciple of John the Revelator. Here are just two of several quotes I could site from him.
He said: “We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods.â€
And: “Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is.â€
Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215)
He said: “yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.â€
And: “...if one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God...His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, "Men are gods, and gods are men."[14]
Those who have been perfected are given their reward and their honors. They have done with their purification, they have done with the rest of their service, though it be a holy service, with the holy; now they become pure in heart, and because of their close intimacy with the Lord there awaits them a restoration to eternal contemplation; and they have received the title of "gods" since they are destined to be enthroned with the other "gods" who are ranked next below the savior.†Sounds like a Mormon, doesn’t he.

This same concept was taught by many others like Justin Martyr (d. ca. AD 163), Hippolytus (AD 170-236), Athanasius, Augustine (AD 354-430), and Jerome (AD 340-420).

I keep repeating myself precisely because your explanation proposes polytheism which is anti-biblical. I have avoided nothing because your explanation does not agree with the idea that there is one, and only one, God. That is my point.

A perfect illustration of my point. I rest my case.

 

[proveallthings]

If LDS members worshiped God, they'd share tithes with those in need as instructed in Deut 14:28-29, not give it to church leaders. When LDS members they do give to church leaders, they consider it giving to God. If LDS members worshipped God, they'd see deception and exploitation for what it is... that when LDS leaders "charge money" for worthiness & try to hide scripture teachings about sharing TITHES with poor, LDS leaders are lying, deceiving and exploiting members.

Deut. 14:28-29 commands them to bring forth their tithe and “lay it up within thy gatesâ€. The use of thy, to me, means that He is speaking to the group and not to individuals to make sure all is gathered in one place within the gates. That would mean that someone appointed would be in charge of distributing to those in need. That would be the equivalent of giving it to a church leader today. In Malachi 3:10 it is clear that individuals were expected to pay tithes to what we could call church leaders today and not directly to those in need or needed projects. This is exactly how the LDS church administers the tithes. They come to a central “storehouseâ€, if you will, and spent on people and projects that help accomplish the church’s mission of bringing all unto Christ.
Members of the church are very aware of what tithing funds are used for. To us it is one of the many testimonies of the work.

If LDS members worshipped God, they'd realize that there are no "members" or "non-members" - but ALL are God's.

Members of the LDS church probably give more to humanitarian efforts that bless those outside of our group than any other church per capita. I don’t know where you are getting such false information, but you need to check out your sources a little more carefully.

If LDS members worshipped God, that which is GOoD/LOVE... Utah (which is most influced by Mormonism) wouldn't lead the nation in anti-depressants.

Whenever you are looking to find fault with someone from information that is out of context, you will continue to embarrass yourself with such unfounded and inaccurate judgements. If you consider the facts more closely, you will find that Mormons have the fewest number of members of any Christian church using alcohol and illegal drugs. They are also close to the most highly educated per capita, so naturally when they have emotional problems they are more likely than other groups to go to a legitimate physician for a remedy. Hence, the higher use of legal anti-depressants.

If LDS members worshipped God, they would prioritize ministering to those in need, as if it were God, instead of worshipping the words of church leaders (in curriculum and in General Conferences).

There has been so much publicized about the church’s leadership in the Christian community and in the world as a whole in ministering to those in need, I am surprised anyone could allow themselves to make such an uninformed statement. Government, church and other leading organizations around the world have praised the members of the LDS church for the quality as well as quantity of the exceptional job we do in ministering to those in need. Just google it and see.

If LDS members worshipped God, they would not try to justify robbing of the poor and using Jesus Christ's name to make money in another corporation (Mall).

This is just an outrageous statement. The downtown Salt Lake City project funded by the church hasn’t used a dime of the offerings from any of the members of the church. The members here in Utah are all very pleased with what the church is doing in this project and that includes the poor ones like me.

 

[Comprehender]

ProveAllThings,
I like your name, although it's ironic coming from someone who (who I presume) gives money to church leaders who keep finances secret, except they do openly use sacred funds to make money.

I don't mean to offend you & I know I could've always rephrased things better. I understand where you're coming from because I grew up in the LDS church & still attend & serve each week. There are no doubt many good aspects of Mormonism & of all major religious organizations (which isn't saying much), I consider it among the best. Yet it's not what it claims to be - the leaders do not lead in a way that is of Jesus Christ. I now understand many LDS teachings to be cognitive distortions that I used to believe to be normal because "everyone else" in the church was doing it or believing it.

There are some who get hung up on the history - polygamy, Book of Mormon inconsistencies, Freemasonry, etc. That doesn't bother me as much as the evil that church leaders are perpetuating right now, which contributes to suffering. Basically 2 issues I have with the harm from Mormonism today:
1. Robbing the poor - robbing both members (using the word "income" instead of increase/interest) & robbing those in fatal need (as already explained by Deut 14:28-29).
2. Cognitive distortions that lead to depression statistically prevalent among Utahns influenced by Mormonism, as it is not just a religion but also a culture in Utah - it's Mormonism to the max.

 

[Navigator]

1 Paul, an apostle —sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead — 2 and all the brothers and sisters[a] with me,

To the churches in Galatia:

3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

No Other Gospel

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel — 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

-Galatians 1:1-10

I don't understand the argument here. They are not Christians. If anything is added to the Gospel, it is simply added to please man, and therefore is not the Gospel. Whether that is the possibility of multiple gods or whatever...it is not Christian. Paul said himself that if HE even went back and preached a different gospel, or AN ANGEL came to give a different gospel that they are to be cursed...so no...I do not consider Mormons to be Christians, because while they may not have obliterated the Gospel...they have altered it...making it "invalid" and not Christian.

 

[Comprehender]

I don't understand the argument here. They are not Christians. If anything is added to the Gospel, it is simply added to please man, and therefore is not the Gospel. Whether that is the possibility of multiple gods or whatever...it is not Christian. Paul said himself that if HE even went back and preached a different gospel, or AN ANGEL came to give a different gospel that they are to be cursed...so no...I do not consider Mormons to be Christians, because while they may not have obliterated the Gospel...they have altered it...making it "invalid" and not Christian.

Navigator,
I understand that many see Mormonism as very different from Christianity. It's true that if you went to a typical LDS/Mormon service, you'd notice that Jesus Christ is generally a minor topic, & Mormon doctrine (including what "latter day LDS prophets" have instructed) is more of the focus. Still, Jesus Christ is part of the church's name, & part of the teachings, including the Book of Mormon. So, I do consider Mormonism to be Christians & in some ways, more Christian than orthodox Christianity - with the principle of direct & personal revelation from God like Jesus taught "the kingdom of God is within you." Yet, in some ways, Mormonism is anti-Christ because leaders rob the poor & members blindly follow. And much of the teachings are counter to what Christ taught. Yet, of what I've gathered, it seems that many Christian sects have been similarly distorted.

Personally, I don't look to any church for my spiritual growth.
I've found that I can't trust people - only God.
God is love. -1John 4:8
One LDS scripture I like is about how charity (love/God) is the pure love of Christ & all things will fail, except charity... only charity endures forever.

So, there are good aspects of Mormonsim & there are bad aspects.
It's like any group of imperfect people.
The difference is that Mormonism is a cult & claims to be the only true church on the earth & other lies.

 

[Navigator]

Navigator,
I understand that many see Mormonism as very different from Christianity. It's true that if you went to a typical LDS/Mormon service, you'd notice that Jesus Christ is generally a minor topic, & Mormon doctrine (including what "latter day LDS prophets" have instructed) is more of the focus. Still, Jesus Christ is part of the church's name, & part of the teachings, including the Book of Mormon. So, I do consider Mormonism to be Christians & in some ways, more Christian than orthodox Christianity - with the principle of direct & personal revelation from God like Jesus taught "the kingdom of God is within you." Yet, in some ways, Mormonism is anti-Christ because leaders rob the poor & members blindly follow. And much of the teachings are counter to what Christ taught. Yet, of what I've gathered, it seems that many Christian sects have been similarly distorted.

Personally, I don't look to any church for my spiritual growth.
I've found that I can't trust people - only God.
God is love. -1John 4:8
One LDS scripture I like is about how charity (love/God) is the pure love of Christ & all things will fail, except charity... only charity endures forever.

So, there are good aspects of Mormonsim & there are bad aspects.
It's like any group of imperfect people.
The difference is that Mormonism is a cult & claims to be the only true church on the earth & other lies.

It's not even very different, but it is different....so I do not consider it to be in the "category" of Christianity. Nowhere within Christianity should Jesus be a "minor topic," I don't care if they believe in him or not. There are a few "all or nothing" topics within Christianity and the Gospel is one of those. If a religion does not hold that to the HIGHEST regard, then it is not Christianity.

 

[Mike]

It's not even very different, but it is different....so I do not consider it to be in the "category" of Christianity. Nowhere within Christianity should Jesus be a "minor topic," I don't care if they believe in him or not. There are a few "all or nothing" topics within Christianity and the Gospel is one of those. If a religion does not hold that to the HIGHEST regard, then it is not Christianity.

I agree. Any obscure religion could mesh Jesus into their story, and there would be those who call it all one faith. But Mormonism separates itself by some of the most core tenets of Christianity. God's nature, Jesus nature, the life everlasting (they can become gods), and baptizing the dead as a means of salvation.

Within biblical Christianity, we have denominations who hold different non-salvific interpretations of Scripture, but we all agree on what Book to turn to for Truth.

 

[Comprehender]

Thank you for your response, Navigator. (BTW, I like your name)
I agree that teachings of Jesus Christ should be the focus in a Christian church.
Yet, I also believe that Jesus didn't want us to worship him... "Why callest thou me Good Master? There is none good, save one, that is God."
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
Godly principles of Christ are what I want to worship.
Still, Jesus is often easier to resonate/relate with than abstract principles.

I agree. Any obscure religion could mesh Jesus into their story, and there would be those who call it all one faith. But Mormonism separates itself by some of the most core tenets of Christianity. God's nature, Jesus nature, the life everlasting (they can become gods), and baptizing the dead as a means of salvation.

Within biblical Christianity, we have denominations who hold different non-salvific interpretations of Scripture, but we all agree on what Book to turn to for Truth.

Good points, Mike.
Although I don't accept all of Mormonism, I do love some of the teachings, I feel are of God. Maybe partly it's because, like Buddha taught, we tend to resonate most with the religion of our youth. I believe what Jesus taught, that "the kingdom of God is within you." I don't believe we are Gods, but I believe we are part of God - so in a sense, I do think that as children of God, we may eventually (I'm talking the huge eternal picture) - become more & more like God.

But who is God?
I think Mormonism has warped God's image.
Even Joseph Smith is to believed to have received visions from an angel, not Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, as is taught today. I believe God is too encompasing to be confined to an image or single definition. It's like trying to define truth - or subatomic particles of the 10th dimension (aka dark energy) - infinite possibilities of infinite possible universes - undefinable! God is love. Love/Charity never fails because it's not any destroyable thing - but rather eternal principles & energy.

I also think that the temple is beautiful, but it's a means to make money. Originally it was used like FreeMasonry - & a way to keep those practicing polygamy in a secret circle. Originally, not all celestial marriages were performed in temples & when they were, both members & nonmembers were invited. Now, to enter the temple, you must pay 10% income to be considered temple/celestial (top heavenly) worthy.

 

[Navigator]

Thank you for your response, Navigator. (BTW, I like your name)
I agree that teachings of Jesus Christ should be the focus in a Christian church.
Yet, I also believe that Jesus didn't want us to worship him... "Why callest thou me Good Master? There is none good, save one, that is God."
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
Godly principles of Christ are what I want to worship.
Still, Jesus is often easier to resonate/relate with than abstract principles.



Good points, Mike.
Although I don't accept all of Mormonism, I do love some of the teachings, I feel are of God. Maybe partly it's because, like Buddha taught, we tend to resonate most with the religion of our youth. I believe what Jesus taught, that "the kingdom of God is within you." I don't believe we are Gods, but I believe we are part of God - so in a sense, I do think that as children of God, we may eventually (I'm talking the huge eternal picture) - become more & more like God.

But who is God?
I think Mormonism has warped God's image.
Even Joseph Smith is to believed to have received visions from an angel, not Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, as is taught today. I believe God is too encompasing to be confined to an image or single definition. It's like trying to define truth - or subatomic particles of the 10th dimension (aka dark energy) - infinite possibilities of infinite possible universes - undefinable! God is love. Love/Charity never fails because it's not any destroyable thing - but rather eternal principles & energy.

I also think that the temple is beautiful, but it's a means to make money. Originally it was used like FreeMasonry - & a way to keep those practicing polygamy in a secret circle. Originally, not all celestial marriages were performed in temples & when they were, both members & nonmembers were invited. Now, to enter the temple, you must pay 10% income to be considered temple/celestial (top heavenly) worthy.

Yet another "all or nothing" topic in Christianity is that of the Trinity. From the look of your post, Jesus is not held in such a high regard to you, and I'm assuming for Mormons. In John 10:30, Jesus states: "I and the Father are one." That alone speaks for itself. And I stand by what is said in the Galatians passage I mentioned earlier in the thread. Paul said it himself: if any other "gospel" comes about, even if AN ANGEL (cough* Joseph Smith) comes to share it; that angel should be accursed and the "gospel" is not true in regards to Christianity. So again, it's not an argument about what Mormon actually teaches, it's whether or not it is considered Christianity; and it should not be.

 

[proveallthings]

Comprehender said, "It's true that if you went to a typical LDS/Mormon service, you'd notice that Jesus Christ is generally a minor topic..."

It's not even very different, but it is different....so I do not consider it to be in the "category" of Christianity. Nowhere within Christianity should Jesus be a "minor topic," I don't care if they believe in him or not. There are a few "all or nothing" topics within Christianity and the Gospel is one of those. If a religion does not hold that to the HIGHEST regard, then it is not Christianity.

I think Comprehender has forgotten a lot about his experiences in LDS meetings. I challenge any of you to drop in on any LDS sacrament meeting or Sunday school class. You will be shocked to find that Jesus Christ and following his teachings is the major focus of every meeting and every doctrine. In the temple ceremonies, Christ is obviously the central figure, but you'll have to read about what people have written about their experiences there. Don't just take the word of a strongly biased dissident. Learn for yourselves if you wish to make public statements about something and represent your opinions as fact.

 

[composer]

Why don't you have a problem with Jesus being "created", as opposed to existing eternally with the Father?

IF Story book jesus was a literal pre-existent god, angel or anything, then it was never a real man but a divine person dressed up to ' look like a man '.

 

[Comprehender]

Yet another "all or nothing" topic in Christianity is that of the Trinity. From the look of your post, Jesus is not held in such a high regard to you, and I'm assuming for Mormons. In John 10:30, Jesus states: "I and the Father are one." That alone speaks for itself. And I stand by what is said in the Galatians passage I mentioned earlier in the thread. Paul said it himself: if any other "gospel" comes about, even if AN ANGEL (cough* Joseph Smith) comes to share it; that angel should be accursed and the "gospel" is not true in regards to Christianity. So again, it's not an argument about what Mormon actually teaches, it's whether or not it is considered Christianity; and it should not be.

Hi Jason,
To each his own... but these days, I realize it's more important to worship God & only God, than warped orthodox interpretations of Jesus Christ. Christ is not Jesus' last name like they pretend.

Gospel = Good News... (actually, it's "god's spell" - but let's not get into that)
One thing I like about Mormonism is the idea of personal revelation & not just being "born again" once & there da da da da... "YOU'VE ARRIVED" - when there is no real "arriving." Our purose & drive is to progress... to be born again & again.

The scripture to me, are not much different than writings online... they are writings by imperfect people, like you & me. There are some that are really inspiring & I love them! And there are others that are very confusing & even depressing. So, I take the scriptures with the grain of salt - or more with the spirit, not the letter (letters are just symbols anyway).

 

[Comprehender]

Comprehender said, "It's true that if you went to a typical LDS/Mormon service, you'd notice that Jesus Christ is generally a minor topic..."


I think Comprehender has forgotten a lot about his experiences in LDS meetings. I challenge any of you to drop in on any LDS sacrament meeting or Sunday school class. You will be shocked to find that Jesus Christ and following his teachings is the major focus of every meeting and every doctrine. In the temple ceremonies, Christ is obviously the central figure, but you'll have to read about what people have written about their experiences there. Don't just take the word of a strongly biased dissident. Learn for yourselves if you wish to make public statements about something and represent your opinions as fact.

I still go to church every Sunday... occasionally I'll miss if I'm sick or something, but I usually go to all 3 meetings (3 hour block). Sometimes Jesus is the focus & it is true that he is always mentioned at the end of prayers... "in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen." But it really depends on the speakers/teachers, as to how much Jesus is included in the rest of the services. In my experience, it's minor compared to how much focus is given General Authorities (past & present).

When I went through the temple the first time, I was like, "What was that all about?" My brother-in-law & a friend had to explain that it was symbolic of Jesus. And the ritual is almost word-for-word a copy of Freemasonry rituals, which don't require a belief in Jesus, only in God (if I understand them correctly).

 

[jonjon1]

You want more examples from early Christian Fathers? How's this?

Saint Irenaeus (ca. AD 115-202), who may justly be called the first Biblical theologian among the ancient Christians, was a disciple of the great Polycarp, who was a direct disciple of John the Revelator. Here are just two of several quotes I could site from him.
He said: “We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods.â€
And: “Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is.â€
Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215)
He said: “yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.â€
And: “...if one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God...His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, "Men are gods, and gods are men."[14]
Those who have been perfected are given their reward and their honors. They have done with their purification, they have done with the rest of their service, though it be a holy service, with the holy; now they become pure in heart, and because of their close intimacy with the Lord there awaits them a restoration to eternal contemplation; and they have received the title of "gods" since they are destined to be enthroned with the other "gods" who are ranked next below the savior.†Sounds like a Mormon, doesn’t he.

This same concept was taught by many others like Justin Martyr (d. ca. AD 163), Hippolytus (AD 170-236), Athanasius, Augustine (AD 354-430), and Jerome (AD 340-420).


A perfect illustration of my point. I rest my case.

Thought I would give you a more accurate quote on Irenaeus:

For we cast blame upon Him, because we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods

Irenaeus taught many things that were opposite of Mormon Theology:
(I'm getting this info. from forms dot carm "Was Irenaeus a Polytheistic Proto-Mormon: Nope)

Monotheism:
CHAP. I.--THERE IS BUT ONE GOD: THE IMPOSSIBILITY OF ITS BEING
OTHERWISE.
1. IT is proper, then, that I should begin with the first and most
important head, that is, God the Creator, who made the heaven and the
earth, and all things that are therein (whom these men blasphemously
style the fruit of a defect), and to demonstrate that there is nothing
either above Him or after Him; nor that, influenced by any one, but of
His own free will, He created all things, since He is the only God,
the only Lord, the only Creator, the only Father, alone containing all
things, and Himself commanding all things into existence.

2. For how can there be any other Fulness, or Principle, or Power,
or God, above Him, since it is matter of necessity that God, the
Pleroma (Fulness) of all these, should contain all things in His
immensity, and should be contained by no one? But if there is anything
beyond Him, He is not then the Pleroma of all, nor does He contain
all. For that which they declare to be beyond Him will be wanting to
the Pleroma, or, [in other words,] to that God who is above all
things. But that which is wanting, and falls in any way short, is not
the Pleroma of all things. In such a case, He would have both
beginning, middle, and end, with respect to those who are beyond Him.
And if He has an end in regard to those things which are below, He has
also a beginning with respect to those things which are above. In like
manner, there is an absolute necessity that He should experience the
very same thing at all other points, and should be held in, bounded,
and enclosed by those existences that are outside of Him. For that
being who is the end downwards, necessarily circumscribes and
surrounds him who finds his end in it. And thus, according to them,
the Father of all (that is, He whom they call Proon and Proarche),
with their Pleroma, and the good God of Marcion, is established and
enclosed in some other, and is surrounded from without by another
mighty Being, who must of necessity be greater, inasmuch as that which
contains is greater than that which is contained. But then that which
is greater is also stronger, and in a greater degree Lord; and that
which is greater, and stronger, and in a greater degree Lord--must be
God.
- Irenaeus agains Heresies: Book II

Ex Nihilo Creation:
Book II ch 10 #2

And that they may be deemed capable of
informing us whence is the substance of matter, while they believe not
that God, according to His pleasure, in the exercise of His own will
and power, formed all things (so that those things which now are
should have an existence) out of what did not previously exist, they
have collected [a multitute of] vain discourses. They thus truly
reveal their infidelity; they do not believe in that which really
exists, and they have fallen away into [the belief of] that which has,
in fact, no existence.

Invisible God

If, then, neither Moses, nor Elias, nor Ezekiel, who had all many celestial visions, did see God; but if what they did see were similitudes of the splendour of the Lord, and prophecies of things to come; it is manifest that the Father is indeed invisible, of whom also the Lord said, “No man hath seen God at any time.â€
-- IV.XX.11

Eternal Punishment of Unbelievers


Chapter XL.—One and the same God the Father inflicts punishment on the reprobate, and bestows rewards on the elect.
1. It is therefore one and the same God the Father who has prepared good things with Himself for those who desire His fellowship, and who remain in subjection to Him; and who has the eternal fire for the ringleader of the apostasy, the devil, and those who revolted with him, into which [fire] the Lord has declared those men shall be sent who have been set apart by themselves on His left hand. And this is what has been spoken by the prophet, “I am a jealous God, making peace, and creating evil things;†thus making peace and friendship with those who repent and turn to Him, and bringing [them to] unity, but preparing for the impenitent, those who shun the light, eternal fire and outer darkness, which are evils indeed to those persons who fall into them.
-- IV.XL.1


So I would conclude that Irenaeus would make a terrible Mormon

 

[proveallthings]

Thought I would give you a more accurate quote on Irenaeus:

For we cast blame upon Him, because we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods.

This is only a slightly different translation than the one I quoted and it says the same thing. It still shows very clearly that Irenaeus taught that man "at length" can become a god.

Irenaeus taught many things that were opposite of Mormon Theology:

I never claimed that Irenaeus agreed with all LDS teachings. I was showing evidence that he was one of many who taught that a man could become a god.
Monotheism:

1. IT is proper, then, that I should begin with the first and most
important head, that is, God the Creator, who made the heaven and the
earth, and all things that are therein (whom these men blasphemously
style the fruit of a defect), and to demonstrate that there is nothing
either above Him or after Him; nor that, influenced by any one, but of
His own free will, He created all things, since He is the only God,
the only Lord, the only Creator, the only Father, alone containing all
things, and Himself commanding all things into existence.

2. For how can there be any other Fulness, or Principle, or Power,
or God, above Him, since it is matter of necessity that God, the
Pleroma (Fulness) of all these, should contain all things in His
immensity, and should be contained by no one? But if there is anything
beyond Him, He is not then the Pleroma of all, nor does He contain
all. For that which they declare to be beyond Him will be wanting to
the Pleroma, or, [in other words,] to that God who is above all
things. But that which is wanting, and falls in any way short, is not
the Pleroma of all things. In such a case, He would have both
beginning, middle, and end, with respect to those who are beyond Him.
And if He has an end in regard to those things which are below, He has
also a beginning with respect to those things which are above. In like
manner, there is an absolute necessity that He should experience the
very same thing at all other points, and should be held in, bounded,
and enclosed by those existences that are outside of Him. For that
being who is the end downwards, necessarily circumscribes and
surrounds him who finds his end in it. And thus, according to them,
the Father of all (that is, He whom they call Proon and Proarche),
with their Pleroma, and the good God of Marcion, is established and
enclosed in some other, and is surrounded from without by another
mighty Being, who must of necessity be greater, inasmuch as that which
contains is greater than that which is contained. But then that which
is greater is also stronger, and in a greater degree Lord; and that
which is greater, and stronger, and in a greater degree Lord--must be
God.
- Irenaeus agains Heresies: Book II

Ex Nihilo Creation:
Book II ch 10 #2

And that they may be deemed capable of
informing us whence is the substance of matter, while they believe not
that God, according to His pleasure, in the exercise of His own will
and power, formed all things (so that those things which now are
should have an existence) out of what did not previously exist, they
have collected [a multitute of] vain discourses. They thus truly
reveal their infidelity; they do not believe in that which really
exists, and they have fallen away into [the belief of] that which has,
in fact, no existence.

I don't have any problem agreeing with all that is stated here. No contradiction to Mormonism.

If, then, neither Moses, nor Elias, nor Ezekiel, who had all many celestial visions, did see God; but if what they did see were similitudes of the splendour of the Lord, and prophecies of things to come; it is manifest that the Father is indeed invisible, of whom also the Lord said, “No man hath seen God at any time.â€

This is the only quote you have provided that I would argue with.

 

[k4dl]

I still go to church every Sunday... occasionally I'll miss if I'm sick or something, but I usually go to all 3 meetings (3 hour block). Sometimes Jesus is the focus & it is true that he is always mentioned at the end of prayers... "in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen." But it really depends on the speakers/teachers, as to how much Jesus is included in the rest of the services. In my experience, it's minor compared to how much focus is given General Authorities (past & present).

When I went through the temple the first time, I was like, "What was that all about?" My brother-in-law & a friend had to explain that it was symbolic of Jesus. And the ritual is almost word-for-word a copy of Freemasonry rituals, which don't require a belief in Jesus, only in God (if I understand them correctly).

I remember those 3 hour meetings myself. And your right. Most of the time the talks are about something some general authority said or did.

I am one of those rare people who was once a Mormon and a Mason so I know first hand the similarities between the 2 rituals. Of course there have been many changes made to the LDS temple rituals but if you go back to the Pre 1990 temple rituals they do include the same oaths and penalty signs as the Mason rituals. Like cutting your throat having your heart ripped out or cutting open your belly. The "five points of fellowship" have been taken out as well. Along with some other things JS added when he created the Mormon ritual from the Masons rituals. Most know JS had just become a Mason when he had the "revelation" to start the Mormon temple ritual.

At the time I was under the delusion that the Masons ritual came from King Solomans temple so I thought it should be about the same. But of course I latter learned the truth about the matter.

 

[By Grace]

Good points, Mike.
Although I don't accept all of Mormonism, I do love some of the teachings, I feel are of God. Maybe partly it's because, like Buddha taught, we tend to resonate most with the religion of our youth. I believe what Jesus taught, that "the kingdom of God is within you." I don't believe we are Gods, but I believe we are part of God - so in a sense, I do think that as children of God, we may eventually (I'm talking the huge eternal picture) - become more & more like God.

But who is God?
I think Mormonism has warped God's image.
Even Joseph Smith is to believed to have received visions from an angel, not Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, as is taught today. I believe God is too encompasing to be confined to an image or single definition. It's like trying to define truth - or subatomic particles of the 10th dimension (aka dark energy) - infinite possibilities of infinite possible universes - undefinable! God is love. Love/Charity never fails because it's not any destroyable thing - but rather eternal principles & energy.

I also think that the temple is beautiful, but it's a means to make money. Originally it was used like FreeMasonry - & a way to keep those practicing polygamy in a secret circle. Originally, not all celestial marriages were performed in temples & when they were, both members & nonmembers were invited. Now, to enter the temple, you must pay 10% income to be considered temple/celestial (top heavenly) worthy.

My impression of your knowledge of things Mormon comes only from this post, and I am wondering about the degree of your involvement in things LDS. I reserve the right to be wrong.

My impression is that you are taking superficial similarities in the usage of names, and then ignoring the major differences in the LDS version, and the Biblical version. One example would be the difference in the LDS concept of Jesus, and what the Bible says about Him. It is akin to saying that my pet dog shares some traits as a cat, such as fur, four legs, a tail; therefore cats and dogs are the same thing. Can you understand my point?

What you seem to be doing is "homogenizing" Jesus by taking different things such as quantum physics and Buddhism, and trying to reconcile them. That is quite impossible, for many various reasons. Here is a simple explanation of why that is so.

Christians uniformly believe that ALL anyone needs for salvation, and an accurate understanding about Jesus is found in the Bible, alone. LDS people do not accept that because they ADD to the Bible, the BoM, PGP, D & C and WoW. But here is the rub in adding all that as a source of truth: Truth never contradicts itself. If that were ever the case, then truth would be relative, and cease to be truth, BY DEFINITION.

I believe that your statement, I think Mormonism has warped God's image indicates that you already understand that principle. Therefore you need to find and understand a non-contradicting source for truth, and because Jesus stated that HE is truth which is in the flesh, (John 14:6) any serious study of who Jesus is must begin and end with Scripture alone.

 

[joep222]

No, Mormonism is not Biblical Christianity.

Why?

Mormons believe:
1. Jesus is Lucifer's (Satan) spirit brother
2. Jesus is "a" god, not the one true God.
3. that we all become "gods" of our own planet
4. Jesus is a created being.
5. Salvation is work-righteousness.
6. that the Bible is insufficient, so they added the book of Mormon. The Bible tells us that anyone who preaches a different gospel is to be cursed.
7. that Jesus came to America in 33 AD.
8. that there is no eternal Hell.
9. Baptism of the dead.
10. Dark Brown people are cursed children of Cain.

These and many other beliefs of Mormons is contrary to traditional, Biblical Christianity. Thus, Mormons are not Christians.

 

[By Grace]

No, Mormonism is not Biblical Christianity.

Why?

Mormons believe:
1. Jesus is Lucifer's (Satan) spirit brother
2. Jesus is "a" god, not the one true God.
3. that we all become "gods" of our own planet
4. Jesus is a created being.
5. Salvation is work-righteousness.
6. that the Bible is insufficient, so they added the book of Mormon. The Bible tells us that anyone who preaches a different gospel is to be cursed.
7. that Jesus came to America in 33 AD.
8. that there is no eternal Hell.
9. Baptism of the dead.
10. Dark Brown people are cursed children of Cain.

These and many other beliefs of Mormons is contrary to traditional, Biblical Christianity. Thus, Mormons are not Christians.

Right!

Not only that, they can not find Cumorah because according to the source used 100,000 or 1,000,000 bodies are supposed to buried under that drumlin. (A drumlin is a geographic formation caused by the receding waters of the glacial sheet and is fairly common in upstate New York.) and when the Mormons refer to that hill, once known locally as "Mormon Hill" as a drumlin, they are actually calling Joseph a liar. But when they promote the "second (or third) Cumorah theory" they are actually calling Smith a liar and/or a geographic imbecile by the proffering of something OTHER than what he said in his History (HJS 1:52ff).

No matter what they do, the Mormons contradict themselves because they have a religion that is created by Satan, and founded upon a myriad of lies.

 

[proveallthings]

No, Mormonism is not Biblical Christianity.

Why?

Mormons believe:
1. Jesus is Lucifer's (Satan) spirit brother
2. Jesus is "a" god, not the one true God.
3. that we all become "gods" of our own planet
4. Jesus is a created being.
5. Salvation is work-righteousness.
6. that the Bible is insufficient, so they added the book of Mormon. The Bible tells us that anyone who preaches a different gospel is to be cursed.
7. that Jesus came to America in 33 AD.
8. that there is no eternal Hell.
9. Baptism of the dead.
10. Dark Brown people are cursed children of Cain.

These and many other beliefs of Mormons is contrary to traditional, Biblical Christianity. Thus, Mormons are not Christians.

A lot of uninformed assumptions here I thought I would respond to.

1. Nowhere in LDS writings does it say that Lucifer or Satan is the brother of Jesus. This is a logical conclusion that can come from real LDS teachings, I agree. But it is just as easily concluded by Biblical teachings.
2. Mormons do believe that Jesus is the only true God along with His Father and the Holy Ghost.
3. Mormons do not believe we will all become gods of our own planet.
4. The Bible does not explicitly say anywhere that Jesus was not created? This is an assumption and depends also on what is meant by created.
5. Mormons believe that even after all we can do, we are only saved by the grace of Christ.
6. First of all the Book of Mormon does not teach another gospel. Have you read it? And if the Bible is so complete, where does it say that it is? The only scriptures the Bible refers to are some of the books in the Old Testament.
7. How is the visit of Jesus to America contradictory to the Bible?
8. Mormons most certainly do believe in an eternal Hell.
9. Mormons are the only Christian religion that understands 1Cor. 15:29. Baptism for the Dead was a very legitimate practice for the New Testament Christians according to Paul.
10. There is no official Mormon teaching that Dark Brown People are the cursed children of Cain.

And finally, what you call traditional Biblical Christianity is quite different from the traditional Biblical Christianity of the 1st century.