Mother of our salvation!

[Walpole]

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

After the birth of Jesus Mary and Joseph had normal marital relations meaning Mary was no longer a virgin. I'm not going to get into the half brothers and sisters of Jesus as it is to involved and needs to be another thread and I have already given scriptures stating Mary and Joseph had other children.

I will give you to study Matthew 13:55-56, Mark 3:31-32; 6:3, Acts 1:13 and Galatians 1:19.

Also there are four James found in the Bible that you might want to look up.

Firstborn was a title given AT BIRTH, not after subsequent maternities. (See Exodus 13:1-2)

Additionally, the quotations from the beginning of St. Matthew's gospel which you quoted concern the events up until the Nativity. His narrative is not implying anything about Joseph and Mary's alleged sexual activity after the Nativity. St. Matthew would have written 'until after' if he had wanted to do so, to avoid the obvious ambiguity. Matthew 1:25 is about Jesus' identity as the Messiah, not Mary's sex life.

As for "brothers" of the Lord, that has been addressed in previous posts. Please go back and read them.
In Jewish antiquity, "brother" had a much wider meaning than we moderns use. There is NO scripture which identifies another as a son (or daughter) of Mary. Thus, any claim that Jesus had uterine siblings is one completely foreign to Scripture and the regula fidei of Christianity.

 

[Walpole]

Thought we were trying to have an intellectual discussion using scripture. Don't know who Dan Brown is and I never said that Mary was not extraordinary as far as God using her because she was of the lineage of David from where the promised Messiah would come from as she being pure and being a virgin would be conceived of the Holy Spirit and give birth to the Christ child. God uses many of us even today for His purpose and for a season, but it does not make us special or to be lifted up on high like the heresies of the Roman Catholic Church teaches about Mary and her still being a virgin literally sitting on her own throne of grace in heaven. It just means we are His vessels he works through for His glory. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13.

God bless both of us as we seek truth

Do you know what a shotgun fallacy is? You went from having an intellectual discussion on the perpetual virginity of Mary, which I was very much enjoying, to a shotgun blast of various conspiracies and fallacies completely unrelated to the topic of Mary's perpetual virginity. I cannot possibly address all of them at once, nor do I have a desire to do so.

 

[Bible]

Then why does the Pope and all Catholics bow down to Mary and pray for her to intercede for them making her their idol in which many have an idol of her in their yards and in the Catholic church that breaks God's first commandment and also calling the Pope Holy Father which is another violation of God's commandment. Mary is not our mediator before the Father as she still lays in her grave waiting for the day when Christ returns and calls us from the grave.

You can't worship God through man made created things. Jesus Christ is eternal being fully God and fully man when He walked the earth. God has no mother.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

See, Mary was not there in the beginning and Mary is not the word.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

View attachment 12074 View attachment 12075 View attachment 12076 View attachment 12077

yes only Jesus was a mediator of justice
No Mary is not God and the word And not the source or mother of the divinity but the mother of Jesus who is the word and God and his name means salvation and cos she consented to our salvation Lk 1:38 and Jesus is our salvation Lk 2:30 Mary is the mother of our salvation
We only worship God, in spirit and in truth
Veneration honor and images are not forbidden, the iconoclast was a condemned Hersey from the 7th century
God commanded Moses to make images examples the cherubim in the ark and bronze serpent in the wilderness

 

[Bible]

An only child is still first born
Call no man father


misunderstandings!

Matt 23:9
Call no man Father?

Is this an absolute requirement?
Or is Our Savior condemning pride and spiritual pride of the Pharisees?

God calls men father!

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jesus calls men father!

Jn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Mary calls men father!

Lk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Peter calls men father!

Acts3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

The stephen calls men father!

Acts 7 Stephen quotes the fathers over and over!

The Bible calls men father!

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.


Then there is spiritual fathers!

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Peter, Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

Isa 22 the administrator of the kingdom is called father, so the same for Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!


Eph 3: 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,


———-


Eph. 3:14-15 – every family in heaven and on earth is named from the “Father.” We are fathers in the Father.

Acts 7:2; 22:1, 1 John 2:13 – elders of the Church are called “fathers.” Therefore, we should ask the question, “Why don’t Protestants call their pastors “father?”

1 Cor. 4:17 – Paul calls Bishop Timothy a beloved and faithful “child” in the Lord.

2 Cor. 12:14 – Paul describes his role as parent over his “children” the Corinthians.

Phil. 2:22 – Paul calls Timothy’s service to him as a son serves a “father.”

1 Thess. 2:11- Paul compares the Church elders’ ministry to the people like a father with his children.

1 Tim. 1:2,18; 2 Tim. 1:2-3 – Paul calls Timothy his true “child” in the faith and his son.

Titus 1:4 – Paul calls Titus his true “child” in a common faith. Priests are our spiritual fathers in the family of God.

Philemon 10 – Paul says he has become the “father” of Onesimus.

Heb. 12:7,9 – emphasizes our earthly “fathers.” But these are not just biological but also spiritual (the priests of the Church).

1 Peter 5:13 – Peter refers to himself as father by calling Mark his “son.”

1 John 2:1,1 John 2:13,14 – John calls the elders of the Church “fathers.”

 

[for_his_glory]

Refers to the pagan Roman Empire conquered by Jesus Christ and his church that he founded on Peter and the apostles and their successors Matt 16:18 Jn 20:21-23 eph 2:20
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Thanks for sharing
Mark

And where do you think the pagan ROMAN Catholic church comes from with all their idol worshipping. Research its beginning starting in Babylon.

Here is a kick start for you to study:
Babylonian Empire:
(Iraq) The lion represents the winged lions that guarded the royal places of Babylon.

Medo – Persian Empire:
(Iran) The ribs of the bear are part of the consuming greed that devours the first empire.

Grecian Empire:
(Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt) Four wings of the leopard described the swiftness of this empire that ran from 334-331BC. It wrestled world dominion from Medo-Persia. After the death of Alexander the Great the kingdom was divided into four minor kingdoms that continued as prominent factors in world politics until the Roman Empire gathered it back as one kingdom.

Roman Empire:
Iron represents the stronghold this nation had. Daniel chapter 2 mentions the iron element of this empire that it to will be divided and broken as God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.


If you think that Jesus Christ has done away with this pagan religion than who destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem in 70A.D. after Christ had ascended up to heaven. Who do you think it was that has made martyrs of millions of Christians since the time of Christ who worship Mary, the so called Queen of heaven who sits there on her throne of grace.

 

[for_his_glory]

Immaculate Conception of Mary!
And the miraculous conception of Jesus, things plural! Lk 1:49

Perpetual Virginity! Isa 7:14, matt 1:21-23 One child singular

Assumption into heaven body and soul! Rev 12:1

Mother of God! Lk 1:43

Nowhere in scripture does it say perpetual virginity, but that a virgin from the lineage of David will birth the Christ child.

Rev 12:1-6

John is shown a great sign in heaven as he sees a vision of a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet. The sun is representative of the glory and brilliance of Gods righteousness that surrounds her and protects her. Under her feet the moon which is illustrative of eternity, light, Gods faithfulness in His Son Jesus who is the greater light of the gospel age as Jesus being the light of the world that shines in darkness, but the darkness can not comprehend the light, Psalms 72:5-7; Isaiah 2:3-5; Jeremiah 31:35-37; Isaiah 30:26-33; John 1:1-5.

The woman is symbolic of Israel and the congregation of Gods people as she wears a crown of twelve stars which represents the twelve tribes of Israel that have repented of their arrogance as they felt they deserved Gods favor, but yet kept killing the prophets God sent to them, including the very Messiah they were waiting for. This is when the times of the Gentiles began as God went to them to take Himself a people that were humbled enough to receive salvation as God had mercy on them, Matthew 23:37-39; Acts 15:14; Romans 11:25-27.

How can God have a mother as He was never created. Please think about that.​

 

[for_his_glory]

Firstborn was a title given AT BIRTH, not after subsequent maternities. (See Exodus 13:1-2)

At least we can agree with this.

 

[JLB]

Immaculate Conception of Mary!

Mary was born of immaculate conception; without sin.

Only Jesus was sinless.

Perpetual Virginity! Isa 7:14, matt 1:21-23 One child singular

Mary had multiple children after Jesus, as the scriptures say, which I have posted.

Mary is not a perpetual virgin, as she had sons after Jesus was born.


Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.”
But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Like 8:19-21

Assumption into heaven body and soul! Rev 12:1

Mary was certainly not taken to heaven bodily.

This scripture has nothing to do with Mary, but is a sign or symbol of the Church. Revelation is not about the past but things to come, which refers to the future.

Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Revelation 12:1


The passage goes on to say of this woman —

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17


This “woman“ had other offspring.




I asked you not to continue to spread false Catholic doctrine about Mary being the “Mother of God” , being a perpetual Virgin, and other false things which serve exalt her to the status of God.




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Do you know what a shotgun fallacy is? You went from having an intellectual discussion on the perpetual virginity of Mary, which I was very much enjoying, to a shotgun blast of various conspiracies and fallacies completely unrelated to the topic of Mary's perpetual virginity. I cannot possibly address all of them at once, nor do I have a desire to do so.

Either you can believe factual history and scripture or you can accept the fallacies that are taught in the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. We have both provided our sides and I do thank you for a mature discussion, but we will never agree on worshipping Mary and her being a perpetual virgin sitting on her throne of grace in heaven.

 

[Walpole]

At least we can agree with this.

Glad you are conceding. The “firstborn” were not given the title because there was a “second-born.” Rather, it is a title given at birth. Being the firstborn does not require subsequent siblings nor does it imply there are or will even be subsequent siblings.

 

[JLB]

IV. The God-man in the womb in Jeremiah 31:22 (KJV) - "How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man."

A woman shall encompass a man.

It doesn’t say A woman will encompass God.

 

[JLB]

Immaculate Conception of Mary!

Immaculate Conception, Roman Catholic dogma asserting that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was preserved free from the effects of the sin of Adam (usually referred to as “original sin”) from the first instant of her conception.


Mary was not born sinless.




JLB

 

[Walpole]

A woman shall encompass a man.

It doesn’t say A woman will encompass God.

Jesus is God become man.

This is Christianity 101.

 

[JLB]

Jesus is God become man.

This is Christianity 101.

Agreed, the Word became flesh.


Mary gave birth to the flesh and blood body of the man Jesus Christ.

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Romans 5:15



Mary is not the Mother of God.


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

yes only Jesus was a mediator of justice
No Mary is not God and the word And not the source or mother of the divinity but the mother of Jesus who is the word and God and his name means salvation and cos she consented to our salvation Lk 1:38 and Jesus is our salvation Lk 2:30 Mary is the mother of our salvation
We only worship God, in spirit and in truth
Veneration honor and images are not forbidden, the iconoclast was a condemned Hersey from the 7th century
God commanded Moses to make images examples the cherubim in the ark and bronze serpent in the wilderness

Mary is the mother of our salvation only being the mother of Christ who is our salvation. She is blessed above all women as she was the one chosen, not only because she was a virgin, but of the bloodline of David in whom the Christ child would be born through.

God did command Moses to build the Ark of the Covenant as it was holy unto God, but not to be worshipped and bowed down to as and idol that would place itself above God. But this would be another thread as this one is about Mary.

 

[Walpole]

Either you can believe factual history and scripture or you can accept the fallacies that are taught in the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. We have both provided our sides and I do thank you for a mature discussion, but we will never agree on worshipping Mary and her being a perpetual virgin sitting on her throne of grace in heaven.

Do you know what a straw man fallacy is?

Again, I was hoping you would engage in an intellectual discussion. Erecting a straw man ends that.

I don’t worship Mary any more than you sacrifice babies to Baal. This is a straw man.

 

[Walpole]

Agreed, the Word became flesh.


Mary gave birth to the flesh and blood body of the man Jesus Christ.


Mary is not the Mother of God.


JLB

You just divided Christ into separate parts, quantities and portions. And here we see how the Church’s Marian dogmas safeguard orthodox Trinitarian theology and Christology.

Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Hence Mary is the mother of God.

The incarnation, by definition, requires a mother.

 

[JLB]

Do you know what a straw man fallacy is?

Again, I was hoping you would engage in an intellectual discussion. Erecting a straw man ends that.

I don’t worship Mary any more than you sacrifice babies to Baal. This is a straw man.

She is engaging in an intelligent discussion.


Please don't insinuate otherwise.


Post scripture to make your point, please sir.



JLB

 

[JLB]

The incarnation, by definition, requires a mother.

Again. —

Mary gave birth to the flesh and blood body of the man Jesus Christ.

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Romans 5:15



Mary is not the Mother of God.


God is Spirit.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24


Mary did not give birth to God. She gave birth to the man, Jesus Christ.





This is basic Christianity 101.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You just divided Christ into separate parts, quantities and portions.

This is a false statement, and a logical fallacy.

I rightly divided the scriptures.


The Word BECAME flesh, in which He was made a little lower than the angels.


But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9


Is God lower than the angels?



JLB