josefnospam
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Mr. Ekklesia...tear this temple down?
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From 'The Vast New Covenant Transition' by George Davis and Michael Clark'
"Participation by every member is a threat to the specialness of the special class(clergy).
No one is special when everyone is special.
So the sad truth is, believers who miraculously come to maturity under these adverse conditions(church), are not treated like blessed members of Christ's body but like enemies.
Instead of being considered viable assets to the whole body of Christ and examples to the others of what Christian growth is, they are considered LOOSE CANNONS, not under covering, and are vilified as rebellious.
We have received hundreds of letters from these very saints who are not bitter, but rather confused, wondering what they did wrong. The fault is not theirs for growing up in Christ and operating in their God given gift, but rather blame lies in this false paradigm of authority that is threatened by the working of the Spirit of God in the lives of all believers.
If all are anointed and come to maturity then the few lose their "specialness."
Throughout history ambitious men came up with similar teachings that also had one design: to elevate a few and silence the rest. They hunted down and killed those who taught the priesthood of all believers, starting with the rise of the bishops in the early second century.
For over millennium they dumbed down the people by translating the scriptures into a dead language that only the scholars knew. Latin. It is clear to us that this is what had been done with Ephecians 4:11 and 12 as well.
In the midst of more than a chapter of scripture, dealing with God's graces given to ALL, men have superimposed, by the use of a little ecclesiastical sophistry(misleading) a notion of an elite and indispensable caste of ministers that are alone responsible for the perfecting of the saints."
All their books are free! Who wooda thunk it?
Leesleyfilms.net
"Participation by every member is a threat to the specialness of the special class(clergy).
No one is special when everyone is special.
So the sad truth is, believers who miraculously come to maturity under these adverse conditions(church), are not treated like blessed members of Christ's body but like enemies.
Instead of being considered viable assets to the whole body of Christ and examples to the others of what Christian growth is, they are considered LOOSE CANNONS, not under covering, and are vilified as rebellious.
We have received hundreds of letters from these very saints who are not bitter, but rather confused, wondering what they did wrong. The fault is not theirs for growing up in Christ and operating in their God given gift, but rather blame lies in this false paradigm of authority that is threatened by the working of the Spirit of God in the lives of all believers.
If all are anointed and come to maturity then the few lose their "specialness."
Throughout history ambitious men came up with similar teachings that also had one design: to elevate a few and silence the rest. They hunted down and killed those who taught the priesthood of all believers, starting with the rise of the bishops in the early second century.
For over millennium they dumbed down the people by translating the scriptures into a dead language that only the scholars knew. Latin. It is clear to us that this is what had been done with Ephecians 4:11 and 12 as well.
In the midst of more than a chapter of scripture, dealing with God's graces given to ALL, men have superimposed, by the use of a little ecclesiastical sophistry(misleading) a notion of an elite and indispensable caste of ministers that are alone responsible for the perfecting of the saints."
All their books are free! Who wooda thunk it?
Leesleyfilms.net
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TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
This has long been the accepted line of thinking, but if we look to the NT texts, what we see is that the idea of assembling to worship is spoken of hardly at all. The "spirit and truth" text in John 4 says nothing of a gathering and nor does the text of Romans 12 where we read of what one's reasonable act of service/worship is.
From the texts, it would appear that the meeting together of the saints was for the purpose of encouraging one another and helping to prepare for and stay ready for the DAY spoken of so often (Hebrews 10:24-25)
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You r spot on Truth or Tradition. I love you for that. When someone can actually understand simple truth. It's like a breath of fresh air. The first century believers gathered to fellowship, share the word, pray, have a pot luck love feast, and to edify one another by their spiritual functions. Worship would be a definite by-product, unavoidable, praise Him! 'God gave gifts unto one man, the pastor.........NOT!!! 'He gave gifts unto men...plural....plural.....everyone of the believers!!! Ephecians 4:8. There are 58 'one to another' scriptures in the n.t.. The church has pretty much boiled those 58 down to ' how you doing? Did you catch the game yesterday?
Hey you take care now. See you next Sunday.'
Somebody wake me up!
Hey you take care now. See you next Sunday.'
Somebody wake me up!
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I found a few interesting verses that seem to relate to this topic.
Why would Jesus teach in the synagogues if that was not where people gathered?
It would appear there were seats in the synagogues.
Sounds like he was standing with everyone looking at him. Now it doesn’t specifically tell us where he was standing but I suspect it was someplace where “everyone†could see him. Possibly up front and perhaps on an elevated platform or floor?
Paul “preached†in the synagogues.
Interesting that he sat down and then stood up to speak. Would that not put him above the rest physically? Interesting also how this seems to sound a lot like Paul is doing the preaching to a larger audience similar to a Sunday service.
But is it spoken of even once? Just once is all that matters.
They say a fair bit more than that.
And yet, some are apostles, some are prophets, some are evangelists, some are pastors, and some are teachers.Withheld said:
The problem is that no one else is saying only pastors have gifts, but you seem to want to ignore the biblical use and purpose of these gifts and say that all can teach, all can be pastors, etc. Your argument is a straw man.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
Paul did exactly as you described. He and others (like Peter in Acts 2) would frequently speak to crowds to publically proclaim the good news of the kingdom. This message was to be proclaimed and spread and the best way to spread it was to reach as many people as possible and the Jewish Synagogues happenned to be places that had large gatherings of people so speaking there if granted the opportunity was a no brainer. Paul and others would reason with the Jews in their synagogues and they would also reason with the Greeks in their public town halls to try and persuade them concerning Jesus and the Kingdom per the advice of Jesus in Acts 1:8. This preaching was done to make believers out of non believers, it was not done as a gathering of believers that met weekly to worship.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
Sounds like church? C'mon WIP. A synagogue is no more church than a mosque is. They Jewish gathering in synagogues was a Hellenistic practice not exactly spelled out in the Law that mimics the pagans of the pre-1st century times. In those gatherings, the Jews practiced something that was NOT Christianity, so using their synagogues to say "see, it's like church" serves no purpose if the goal is understanding what the church's gatherings were supposed to be like.
Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
Act 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Act 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my word
Some how I always had the idea that the guys were on the upstairs porch around the upper room...So the folks could hear them.... :shocked
Act 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Act 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my word
Some how I always had the idea that the guys were on the upstairs porch around the upper room...So the folks could hear them.... :shocked
I quite honestly don’t understand why you fellows have such an axe to grind with churches. I don’t see it the same way you do.
I see our modern church as a place where Christians and non-Christians alike can gather together for fellowship, friendship, enlightenment, edification, exhortation, scriptural study, support in our Christian walk, to worship God, even admonishment and reproof when necessary.
Pastors, priests, teachers, elders, reverends, clerics, preachers, parsons, nuns, laypersons, deacons, council members, or any other that are led by God to take on a leadership role within the congregation are servants of Christ, not rulers of people.
Pulpits, podiums, microphones, lighting, and raised platforms are tools used to enhance the delivery of God’s message to the intended audience. Chairs, carpeting, interior decoration, heating systems, and cooling systems are tools used to enhance the physical comfort of those in the church and in some cases help preserve the structure from environmental damage. Christ used the landscape to this end when he delivered his teachings such as his most famous sermon. I’m sure he also used whatever things were typical in the synagogues in the same way.
I share what I believe and I share what I learn from research I do. I don’t think it is necessary or appropriate to talk down to me. Unlike I am in real life, I find one advantage to online forum discussion is that I will not argue and I will not allow myself to be drawn into an argument…most of the time.
josefnospam
Member
A Pastor must be called to preached only Christ . A pastor who preaches other things, like how to live your life, trys to shame you into giving money, tells you what you should or should not do, attempts to scare you into believing , tells you what to wear ect is NOT preaching Christ alone. Christ is the message...........The only message and him crucfied. If you find or have such a Pastor, help him, support him and encourage him. Pastors are men, and they are sinners and need the same saviour as all other people.
Jethro Bodine
Member
IOW, you're saying stay away from an elder/pastor who teaches from the Bible. That's crazy.
The Bible is full of lengthy passages on how to live. It's what the Christian life is ALL about.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The problem is you're insisting this is to only happen in the absence of a church building/ pulpit and a system of leadership.
Of course it is, as 1 Cor 1:2 states--"To the ekklesia of God that is in Corinth"--but as Jethro correctly pointed out: "The problem is you're insisting this is to only happen in the absence of a church building/ pulpit and a system of leadership."
In fact, you seem to be ignoring everything Paul states in 1 Cor 12, and what he states in Eph 4:11, which I had pointed out in my previous post:
"And yet, some are apostles, some are prophets, some are evangelists, some are pastors, and some are teachers.
The problem is that no one else is saying only pastors have gifts, but you seem to want to ignore the biblical use and purpose of these gifts and say that all can teach, all can be pastors, etc. Your argument is a straw man."
Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (ESV)
Jas 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. (ESV)
Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, (ESV)
There certainly are implied degrees of God-given authority and structured leadership in all those passages, including 1 Cor 12.
You have no argument against a structured Church, Withheld.