Mr. Ekklesia...tear this temple down?

[JLB]

Sounds like a church to me.

Sounds like church? C'mon WIP. A synagogue is no more church than a mosque is. They Jewish gathering in synagogues was a Hellenistic practice not exactly spelled out in the Law that mimics the pagans of the pre-1st century times. In those gatherings, the Jews practiced something that was NOT Christianity, so using their synagogues to say "see, it's like church" serves no purpose if the goal is understanding what the church's gatherings were supposed to be like.

I quite honestly don’t understand why you fellows have such an axe to grind with churches. I don’t see it the same way you do.

I see our modern church as a place where Christians and non-Christians alike can gather together for fellowship, friendship, enlightenment, edification, exhortation, scriptural study, support in our Christian walk, to worship God, even admonishment and reproof when necessary.

Pastors, priests, teachers, elders, reverends, clerics, preachers, parsons, nuns, laypersons, deacons, council members, or any other that are led by God to take on a leadership role within the congregation are servants of Christ, not rulers of people.

Pulpits, podiums, microphones, lighting, and raised platforms are tools used to enhance the delivery of God’s message to the intended audience. Chairs, carpeting, interior decoration, heating systems, and cooling systems are tools used to enhance the physical comfort of those in the church and in some cases help preserve the structure from environmental damage. Christ used the landscape to this end when he delivered his teachings such as his most famous sermon. I’m sure he also used whatever things were typical in the synagogues in the same way.

I share what I believe and I share what I learn from research I do. I don’t think it is necessary or appropriate to talk down to me. Unlike I am in real life, I find one advantage to online forum discussion is that I will not argue and I will not allow myself to be drawn into an argument…most of the time.

Thats very well put sir.


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I quite honestly don’t understand why you fellows have such an axe to grind with churches.

For me, the issue is Honesty. The vast majority of churches are good philantropic man made organizations that bring value to their communities. That is a good thing and if that was the extent of what churches claimed to be then I'd have no issue with them. The problem is that churches claim to be farmore than that. They,. these corporate institutions make the claim of being something found on the pages of the New Testament yet they follow a pattern(s) that are not biblically inspired. They claim to be the very body of the Christ yet upon inspection have none of his DNA in them. SO in summary, churches claim to be something they are not and that is deceitful and problematic.

I don’t see it the same way you do...................... Pastors, priests, teachers, elders, reverends, clerics, preachers, parsons, nuns, laypersons, deacons, council members, or any other that are led by God to take on a leadership role within the congregation are servants of Christ, not rulers of people.

Again, the idea that those mentioned are in fact led by God to do what they do is what I question. If they were led by God we'd see some evidence of that claim like less religious and doctrinal division among the leaders of various christian groups. The doctrinal confusion tht exists is in fact evidence AGAINST the claim of these leader being God-appointed according to texts like 1 Corinthians 14:33.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I don’t think it is necessary or appropriate to talk down to me.

I have no intention of doing so WIP. I simply am sharing what I believe based on my studies and the learning that came from them. I am in no position to talk down to, be condescending to, or be rude to anyone. I actually value the back and forth this forum provides us with so that we can share ideas, opinions, and scripture that oftentimes acts as teaching tools for us all.

 

[WIP]

I quite honestly don’t understand why you fellows have such an axe to grind with churches.

For me, the issue is Honesty. The vast majority of churches are good philantropic man made organizations that bring value to their communities. That is a good thing and if that was the extent of what churches claimed to be then I'd have no issue with them. The problem is that churches claim to be farmore than that. They,. these corporate institutions make the claim of being something found on the pages of the New Testament yet they follow a pattern(s) that are not biblically inspired. They claim to be the very body of the Christ yet upon inspection have none of his DNA in them. SO in summary, churches claim to be something they are not and that is deceitful and problematic.

I don’t see it the same way you do...................... Pastors, priests, teachers, elders, reverends, clerics, preachers, parsons, nuns, laypersons, deacons, council members, or any other that are led by God to take on a leadership role within the congregation are servants of Christ, not rulers of people.

Again, the idea that those mentioned are in fact led by God to do what they do is what I question. If they were led by God we'd see some evidence of that claim like less religious and doctrinal division among the leaders of various christian groups. The doctrinal confusion tht exists is in fact evidence AGAINST the claim of these leader being God-appointed according to texts like 1 Corinthians 14:33.

I don't specifically know the answer to this but it has been my understanding that many of the denominations we have today were not the dreamchild of single persons but groups of people. The Lutheran church for example was not srarted by Martin Luther but by people that agreed with his views. They applied his name to it but not by his leading or permission. In fact, if I have my memory in place, it was not his intention to leave the Catholic church but rather to reform it from the corruption he saw within. The Catholic church chose to remove him.

I do believe that people are led by God for those callings I mentioned.

 

[josefnospam]

IOW, you're saying stay away from an elder/pastor who teaches from the Bible. That's crazy.

Im saying ENDORSE a pastor who preaches from the Bible About Christ. The passages that are about Christian living fall into proper propective when you talk about Christ and all he did. The whole thing, how to live, what to expect, and why ,all are contained in the messsage about Jesus Christ. If you study and undestand about Christ the rest will follow. Im saying don't tell men how to live this life, tell them HOW Jesus lived this life and pattern their lives after the Christ. So many people are told you MUST do this or that to obtain salvation. They attempt to frighten people into beliveing.
They attempt to control peoples lives using religion as the contorling factor. Just preach Christ, what he did, does and will do. He will lead his people into the correct way to live.

Tell people every where, they need a Saviour and this is how he the Saviour lived. Don't shy away from HOW to live or what to do. It's part of the scriptures. Just put it in proper propestive. It's ALL about Jesus Christ and him crufied. If people follow his ways they WILL live this life in a most God glorifing way, being honest, fair, and blessed of God as they give him ALL the praise, honor and Glory, and not denying his power. ALL Christ ALL the time and worshiping him in reverant fear and awe, and NEVER exalting man or what man does puts men under his wonderfull Grace. And this is where ALL men should desire and strive to be. Once called," work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling"..........Philippians 2:12

 

[ejected]

Wip, please believe me when I say that we are not the bad guys here. If you carefully sense the tone in our thesis, it is of a totally disinterested spirit. There is no material or financial gain for the stand we take. We do not speak these things to gain a personal following. We point to the Christ that folks should follow, Him and Him alone.
Our heart is for the strengthening, the blessing, and the spiritual liberty that is the saints rightful inheritance.
Our hearts hurt and our spirits are in mourning over the fact that 'church' has so deviated from the original plan.
You'll have to admit that the bulk of Christians that are glued to pews each week are hard to recognize from the world.
They live with fear and discontent. Their attitudes reflect little of Christ's attributes. Natural affection and compassion have all but went the way of the dinosaur.
Many hobble bent over with sickness and dire conditions. Sometimes the more we lay our hands on them and pray, the sicker they get. I do not understand healing completely either, but I submit that something's out of whack.
And the false tithes?? My God! I've known saints that tithed faithfully for 50 years and lived in poverty everyone of those years waiting for those Malachi windows to open up wide open....and they never do.
You all know the definition of insanity. Doing the same dumb thing over and over and over and over and over again expecting a different result. I'm getting really angry here thinking about the lavish lifestyles of the wolves who push this lie. I gotta get off of this subject now.
So Wip, if all this malady inside the 'church' house really bothers us and that makes us the trouble makers, then let it be so. Just call me Trub!
My heart will continue to break for the body of Christ, and I will continue to shine the bright light of scripture on the whole unhealthy construct.
The 'churches' hiearchy has a dirty little secret they pray never sees the light of day. They hold an upper position that is not validated by the word. They'll stand behind a pagan pulpit and encourage the little sheep ' get into the word of God and study to show yourself approved of God, rightly dividing the word of truth', while praying inside that no one really does it, lest they discover that what's being taught is not the word of God.
We all want revival. It will never come until we have reformation. The very word means that something is deformed. A new ox cart won't do. Even if it seems to work well on the outward.


Gotta quit.

 

[WIP]

You'll have to admit that the bulk of Christians that are glued to pews each week are hard to recognize from the world.

I can agree with this. But then on the other hand can the eye say to the body, "I have no need of you?" The body of Christ is made up of many parts. Some parts need more nurturing and take more time to grow to maturity perhaps?

Many hobble bent over with sickness and dire conditions. Sometimes the more we lay our hands on them and pray, the sicker they get. I do not understand healing completely either, but I submit that something's out of whack.

Christ said with faith anything is possible such as moving mountains. I suspect faith is required on the part of both, the one being prayed for and the one praying. Suggesting that the one being prayed for is lacking faith resulting in no change to their health is a dangerous thing to do I suspect. Is it possible the lack of faith was on the part of the one(s) doing the praying?

And the false tithes?? My God! I've known saints that tithed faithfully for 50 years and lived in poverty everyone of those years waiting for those Malachi windows to open up wide open....and they never do.

You've got this idea that all tithes or offerings are of a false premise. I wonder why that is. Is it because you somehow know that this is true of everyone or because after personal examination you've discovered that your alms were under a false premise? Jesus said we are to be a cheerful giver, not allowing our right hand to know what our left hand is doing. If we are giving under the guise of getting something in return for our offering then I propose we are tithing for the wrong reason.

I appreciate what you write and while I agree we are corrupt, I can't help but think you might be painting with an extremely broad brush.

Just my $.02.

 

[ejected]

Did I say that offerings are a bad premise?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Just what is the Ekklesia anyway? Defining it for what it is described as in the Bible will help us better understand all things related to it IMHO. The Ekklesia of the Christ references those called ones of his sanctified congregation. WHenever the word is mentioned we would do well to thing of it as the Christ's called out assembly. Contrast this with the word church which experts and historians say refers to a holy place and is/was looked at as the very house of a god. In time these words became intertwined and eventually the concept of the ekklesia was all but lost and we came to reference the 2 as one and the same under the moniker of 'church'.

 

[WIP]

Did I say that offerings are a bad premise?

I guess that's what I've been hearing from what you've been posting here and other threads. My apologies if I'm in error.

 

[ejected]

Your forgiven. The n.t. way of giving I'm on board with. In fact I'm on board with everything the new covenant is about.
That's why I'm on this forum to show that the new covenant needs to be our guide.
I'm one of those crazies that think if we tried things Gods way, might turn out a whole lot better. Silly me!

 

[Free]

That's why I'm on this forum to show that the new covenant needs to be our guide.
I'm one of those crazies that think if we tried things Gods way, might turn out a whole lot better. Silly me!

You are presuming a couple of things: 1. That we aren't doing things God's way, and 2. that the way you think is God's way, is actually God's way.

 

[ejected]

The word of God is Gods way. The word presume assumes that the presumer is batting blind folded in a fog with no concrete evidence. I have concrete evidence. The word of God.
Take just one proof that I am not just presuming.
Men that have the preeminence over other folks in the 'church'.
Plenty of scripture that forbids this.

 

[Free]

The word of God is Gods way. The word presume assumes that the presumer is batting blind folded in a fog with no concrete evidence. I have concrete evidence. The word of God.
Take just one proof that I am not just presuming.

The word "presume" means you have made some unsupported assumptions. You have no concrete evidence that the way things are done isn't "God's way," and in much you have been shown to be in error or at least in the weaker position. You say you have "the word of God" when what you should say, and what you really mean is, you have your understanding of the word of God. And that is the problem since your understanding has been shown to be problematic.

Men that have the preeminence over other folks in the 'church'.
Plenty of scripture that forbids this.

You mean Scripture forbids any sort of structure or leadership? I have addressed this and shown that to be wrong, which you have not responded to.

 

[ejected]

I have laid out all the scriptural backing. You haven't responded.
So lets slow down.
We'll concentrate on just one reference.

Jesus told His followers in Matt. 20 not to create a 2 tier system. The special elete and the lower sheep.

Matt. 20
Greatness Is Serving

20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Him with her sons, kneeling down and asking something from Him.
21 And He said to her, “What do you wish?”
She said to Him, “Grant that these two sons of mine may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on the left, in Your kingdom.”
22 But Jesus answered and said, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?”[d]
They said to Him, “We are able.”
23 So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with;[e] but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.”
24 And when the ten heard it, they were greatly displeased with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

 

[handy]

I have laid out all the scriptural backing. You haven't responded.
So lets slow down.
We'll concentrate on just one reference.

Jesus told His followers in Matt. 20 not to create a 2 tier system. The special elete and the lower sheep.

Do you have a better reference. I'm assuming you're referring to Matthew 20:1-16... but I don't believe Jesus was referring to a "2 tier system" with this parable... much more likely He was referring to Gentiles being brought into the kingdom as well as Jews.

 

[ejected]

Handy, bless your heart but I do not know how u read your position into that. ' it shall not be so among you' is it. Can't get any clearer than that.
Try 3 John and the self exalting Diotrephes. Let me know.

 

[handy]

Handy, bless your heart but I do not know how u read your position into that. ' it shall not be so among you' is it. Can't get any clearer than that.
Try 3 John and the self exalting Diotrephes. Let me know.

Ahhh... not Matthew 20:1-16 but rather 20:24-27... have to forgive me, I've been up all night...

 

[ejected]

And please forgive me if I sound forward. I just want the best for God's precious jewels. Got set a fire in me. Didn't happen over night, trust me. 38 years of trying to figure things out. I'm still studying and learning.

 

[Deborah13]

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

King James Version (KJV)

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Doesn't this imply that 1) men didn't have to be silent in church 2) that men were allowed to ask questions in church 3) men were allowed to speak in church?

If men were not allowed to speak or ask questions, then there would have been no reason for Paul to give this instructions about women.

It seems to have been that way in the synagogue. Jesus was allowed to speak and teach even though He didn't always agree with other's teachings. Then the Apostles were allowed to proclaim and argue the Gospel in the synagogue.
Even when Jesus was 12 yrs. old He was allowed to speak.

I am not criticizing the church today. But I do believe that church services were quite different than it is today. I think it was more like what we do as a Sunday Bible Study, with a leader but others actually participate. Much harder to keep order in larger groups.......Corinth is the example of disorder.