Must we do the will of God to get saved?

[Jethro Bodine]

You won't get this, though, if you think that 'faith' and 'believing' are one and the same thing and God did your believing for you because the Bible says 'faith' is the free gift of God (which is surely is). ...

I see no Biblical, linguistic reason to justify this statement.

Really I should maybe bow out of all this.

Faith is the "conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1 NASB)--a noun, a thing. Faith is something God graciously gives to men so they can know that the gospel is true. Without this free gift of faith it is impossible to know if the unseen gospel is true or not. And he does not give that gift on the basis of righteous work completed. It's completely and totally unmerited. His calling is not based on human performance or faithfulness.

Believing in the Bible is the 'work' of placing your trust in that which God has shown us to be true through the unmerited, gracious, supernatural gift of faith. Believing is a verb, an action, a (gasp!) 'work' that we 'do' (John 6:29 NASB) in response to God's free gift of faith.

IOW, God gives us the faith to believe. Some respond to God's voice of faith testifying to the truth of the gospel in the world (1 John 5: NASB) by placing their trust (believing) in that which God has shown them. Most do NOT respond to God's voice of faith in the world and do not place their trust in what God has shown them.

<sup class="versenum">6 </sup>And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. <sup class="versenum">7</sup> ...God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. <sup class="versenum">
10</sup>Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. " (1 John 5:6-7,10 NASB)

Only those who 'do' the work of trusting and accept God's testimony about Jesus provided to them through the gift of faith are saved. And that believing, that trusting, must continue to the end in the believer for it to save the believer:

15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)


James says we show that we 'have faith' (have believed God's testimony about Jesus and are holding firmly to his word) by our works, and that a faith that does not have works attached can not save. Those works don't save us in the sense of earning us salvation. Those works save us in that they show us to have the faith, the believing, that does save.

So in that sense we DO have to do the will of God to be saved, or 'get' saved on the Day of Judgment. Our works will either testify for or against us as to whether we believed the testimony of the Holy Spirit sent into the world to convict it about Jesus and the gospel, or not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I like the analogy of the pool. You have to be wet to validate a boast of having gone swimming in the pool. Getting wet is the expected and obligatory result of going swimming.

In the same way, we have to have works to validate a boast of being in Christ. Works are the expected and obligatory result of being immersed in the Holy Spirit of God through faith in Jesus Christ. And it follows that if we stay continually in that Holy Spirit through faith in Christ we will continue to exhibit the obligatory evidence of that--righteous works according to the fruit of the Spirit.

The idea here is not to put works before faith--the proverbial 'cart before the horse'. What we are to do is nurture the fruit of the Spirit within us--the character of Christ--by remaining steadfast in our faith and confidence in the forgiveness we have received. The kindness of God, communicated to us by his indwelling Holy Spirit, changes people. It changes people into people who look like Christ and who act according to the fruit of the Spirit. Peaceful people do peaceful things. Kind people do kind things. Loving people do loving things. Patient people do works of patience. And so on, and so on.

Faith gives us the confidence to trust God for forgiveness of sin.

Believing results in the giving of the Holy Spirit--the promissory note of our salvation.

The Holy Spirit is how we put to death the misdeeds of the body and bring to life the fruit of the Spirit.

The fruit of the Spirit is what produces the godly, righteous works that God expects of those who belong to him.

That righteous work is what God uses as the evidence to acquit us at the Judgment, allowing us to enter into the kingdom.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What changed, what ended was that person's believing--his trusting in that which God showed him, through the gift of faith, to be true about Jesus.

Exactly. What changed? Us. God does not change.

Exactly.

Which is why we are to "<sup class="versenum"> </sup>Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us." (2 Timothy 1:14 NIV)

If we guard what God has entrusted to us (the knowledge of the gospel), he will guard what we have entrusted to him (our very lives).

"I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day." (2 Timothy 1:12 NIV)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now where does it say that we can lose our faith...

<sup class="versenum">"22 ...</sup>He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard..." (Colossians 1:22-23 NASB)

and where does it say that Abrahams' continual faith is what saved him?

The faith that saved Abraham was a faith that left footprints. It did things. And not just once, and then stopped dead in the sand. We see his whole life was a pattern of faithful footprints. All motivated by his trust in God's promises. That is the faith that saves--the faith that acts. Not the faith that doesn't leave footprints. But many people think faith 'alone', in this sense, can save a person. James plainly says it can not.

The problem is many people can not see the two very different arguments between James' 'faith alone' argument (James 2:24 NIV), and Paul's 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' argument (Romans 4:6 NIV). They are not arguing for the same thing.

Faith justifies (makes one righteous) all by itself.

The faith that justifies all by itself, can be seen in what it does and can not ultimately be alone, or else it is a 'faith' that can not justify...or can not continue to justify.

Perfect harmony between Paul and James.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

We see his whole life was a pattern of faithful footprints

Did Abraham show his continual faith when he told King Abimelech that Sarah was his sister? Genesis Chapter 20;

Abraham exercised his faith continually.

Did Abraham show his continual faith when he forced the issue and slept with Hagar and had Ishmael?

Genesis Chapter 16;

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We see his whole life was a pattern of faithful footprints

Did Abraham show his continual faith when he told King Abimelech that Sarah was his sister? Genesis Chapter 20;

How does this show that he outright abandoned God and stopped believing in the promises made to him?

This no more shows he abandoned faith in the promise than when you or I am overcome by a fault in our daily trek toward the promise of God.

This is why it's important to differentiate between our daily struggle with sin, and actually abandoning trust in the promise of salvation. The church doesn't seem to know the difference very well and I think that is one of the reasons they resist the suggestion that one can stop believing to their own destruction. They erroneously understand any and all sin or failure to be the unbelief that non-OSAS says will condemn the person who once believed. Simply not true.

Abraham exercised his faith continually.

Did Abraham show his continual faith when he forced the issue and slept with Hagar and had Ishmael?

Genesis Chapter 16;

Do you think he slept with her because he DIDN'T believe that God would give him a son?

Think about it.

It isn't until after Hagar that God tells Abraham through whom the promise of a son would be fulfilled. It's a picture for us how we also at first strive to fulfill the promise of God through Hagar (the old covenant, the covenant of law) only to then learn it is actually through Sarah (the way of the New Covenant) that the Promise is fulfilled. This is by God's design, I believe. We must all come to Christ through the effort of 'law' first. It isn't until we do that that we can then surrender up our own efforts and rest in the grace of God to realize the promise. 'Natural man first, spiritual man second'. We see this theme all through scripture.

 

[jasoncran]

[MENTION=88699]Jethro Bodine[/MENTION]. that is what paul said the story of hagar and sarah was.a reference to works and faith in Christ.

 

[Guest]

That it is possible to get ones name removed? I will not blot your name out means just that. There is no "possible" in that sentence. I will not, means I will not.

interesting way to look at it.

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I can respect your input too because I honestly think you have the heart of a preacher if not a teacher. I got love for the hearts of preachers/teachers. I'm good friends with one. Do you think that we already overcame by accepting Jesus into our hearts by faith. Not by our works, but by his? We already overcame flesh by accepting Jesus into our hearts? Blessings.

 

[Brother Mike]

Do you think that we already overcame by accepting Jesus into our hearts by faith. Not by our works, but by his? We already overcame flesh by accepting Jesus into our hearts? Blessings.

Blessing Dave, your good ..... I did pastor a church and am now learning more before God's next big move. The Church I Pastored was full of Homeless, drunks and people that were just messed up. Looking at their lives I spent a whole lot of time preaching about trusting God and doing the will of God. Putting God first in everything and not your own things. So when we look at the Word overcome and the term Jesus used about blotting our name out of the book I have to believe that getting your name blotted out would have to be a serious act of violating the Light you have and just flat out living the way you want after you have walked with God and sure should know better.

I ran the Sunday morning service and the Head Pastor had his people do the night service. One teacher he had taught that making mistakes and struggling way to long to get it right could mean hell fire. This caused fear and concern in my people I had for Sunday morning. It's not as If I could tell them not to attend night service also, but it was night and day concerning the message. I spent time having to fix this misconception as some of my folks had gotten very concerned about their standing with God, though they were trying to learn.

The flesh we take the Word and be transformed by the renewing of our mind. I even have to remind myself to walk in love toward the wife at times and do get that "Shut Up" in my spirit man when I am about to say something stupid. I am convinced it's this submitting to God and the Holy Spirit that helps us overcome being stupid.

As for being saved? This overcoming is bought and paid for. We can't save ourselves and we can't just wake up one morning not saved. Saved is saved, and God will save us to the utmost completing the work he started in us. I don't believe it's possible to just get unsaved even if your stupid for 10 years not obeying God. A child is a child is a child.

If someone after knowing better wants to walk away from God then after knowing what they are leaving I believe God won't stop them and I believe after reading the letters to the churches it was this act that Jesus was warning about. Not someone that just struggles, no matter how long they struggle. Someone that is struggling to live for God is someone that still has that heart for God.

my 2 cents.

The condition was to Deny me........... Before man. Which is the same wording in Rev. To deny him would be to know him at one time. This is a willful act, not someone that is overcoming things in their life.

Mike.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

How does this show that he outright abandoned God and stopped believing in the promises made to him?

Well, we don't know, now do we?
Why did he say in Genesis 20:11;
"There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife".
How could he have continual faith in the promise to him if he thought he would lose his life before the promise?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How does this show that he outright abandoned God and stopped believing in the promises made to him?

Well, we don't know, now do we?

Actually we do. Paul said so:

"<sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform." (Romans 4:19-21 NASB)

Why did he say in Genesis 20:11;
"There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife".
How could he have continual faith in the promise to him if he thought he would lose his life before the promise?

Well we have to understand this in light of what Paul says. At this point in time he understands that the promise is to be fulfilled through Sarah and her baby. Assuming she's already pregnant with Issac there's no reason that Abraham has to remain alive for God's promise concerning his seed to come to pass.

We just have to go on faith that Paul knew what he was talking about when he said Abraham did not waver in his faith in the promise. And I think the above is a good explanation for the very good question you brought up about Abraham thinking he needed to deceive the king in order to stay alive despite the fact that he had great faith in God's promise (he didn't actually lie--Sarah really was his sister.)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Well we have to understand this in light of what Paul says. At this point in time he understands that the promise is to be fulfilled through Sarah and her baby. Assuming she's already pregnant with Issac there's no reason that Abraham has to remain alive for God's promise concerning his seed to come to pass. We just have to go on faith that Paul knew what he was talking about when he said Abraham did not waver in his faith in the promise. And I think the above is a good explanation for the very good question you brought up about Abraham thinking he needed to deceive the king in order to stay alive despite the fact that he had great faith in God's promise (he didn't actually lie--Sarah really was his sister.)

I think it's safe to say that Sarah became pregnant after the confrontation with King Abimelech.
So as Paul says, his faith was strengthened with his belief.

But prior to this, there's no reason to think that Abraham did not waver in his faith.
He committed a sin out of fear.
He gave an excuse to try to cover up.

This should show us that Abraham is just like you and me, human.
We have weaknesses.
Adam gave excuses, Genesis 3:12
Aaron gave excuses, Exodus 32:24
Saul gave excuses, 1 Samuel 13:12
And Abraham gave excuses.

We shouldn't try to elevate these people to a point where we are exalting them.
The only one who is worthy of that is Jesus.

Abrahams great faith is that he believed God would give him a child in his old age.
We should have such great faith too.

 

[Randy]

Must we do the will of God to get saved?

The bible say many times to do the will of God

If one listens and learns from the Father and goes to the Son that is the will of God. Jesus will raise them up on the last day. That also is the Will of God.

We have freedom in Christ but we are not free to sin if thats what you ask. Jesus's command (Love one another) If we walk in the light we remain in Him (Jesus)

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