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My approach to predestination and salvation

Hi Grazer,

No, that is a false represenation of predestination. We believe God chose according to His good pleasure, not because of anything of value in us. And it also seems to be implied that God has chosen the least valued...
Corinthians 1:27 (NAS) - but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,

Just out of curiousity, if you believe that everyone can freely choose God then why did you choose God and others refuse?

God bless,
Brian

That's a question you will have to ask those who have not chosen. I cannot answer for them. As for why I chose, the short answer was I became convinced after a long period of questioning and gathering evidence that God was real, that Jesus really had risen from the dead and that I could trust him

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2
 
1)Why do we need to go out and make disciples? Well, first of all, because we've been commanded to do so.
True but an incomplete answer to the tone of the question. The answer is complete in that God commanded it and there is nothing else we need to know beyond that but curiosity still abounds. So the question still remains, why do we need to evangelize? Or let's ask another way. Why do others need to hear it from us?

We are children that are not accepting the, "Because I said so!" answer. How about humoring us with an answer that we can understand from a human perspective.
 
True but an incomplete answer to the tone of the question. The answer is complete in that God commanded it and there is nothing else we need to know beyond that but curiosity still abounds. So the question still remains, why do we need to evangelize? Or let's ask another way. Why do others need to hear it from us?

We are children that are not accepting the, "Because I said so!" answer. How about humoring us with an answer that we can understand from a human perspective.


One problem is that you would not be able to make one a disciple if God has predetermined before the world began who HE DECIDED would be a disciple and who would not be a disciple. So you would not be doing anything.


Calvinism and the Great Commission

By Wayne Jackson

John Calvin (1509-64) was a religious reformer and theologian. The basic premise of his theology was the absolute sovereignty (right to reign) of God, out of which evolved his misguided theory of “predestination.” The Swiss reformer believed that human “free will” was destroyed by man’s “original sin”; thus, the innate power to yield to the will of God was lost forever.

Nonetheless, Calvin contended that God, by virtue of his sovereign will, predetermined to save some, whom he called the “elect,” but condemn others—the “non-elect.” In his famous work, Institutes of the Christian Religion, the reformer wrote: “No one who wishes to be thought religious dares outright to deny predestination, by which God chooses some for the hope of life, and condemns others to eternal death” (1975, III.xxi).

Later this ideology was incorporated into the Westminster Confession of Faith (1643). Note the following (Article III):
God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass. . . . By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death (Bettenson 1947, 347).
There are many modern advocates of Calvinism, particularly among the Presbyterians and some Baptists. One of these was James Montgomery Boice, who for more than thirty years preached for the Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia. In one of his books, Boice relates the following incident in the life of John Gerstner, a professor at the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. One of Gerstner’s students was R. C. Sproul, now a popular preacher and modern advocate of Calvinism.

Gerstner had been lecturing on the theme of predestination. At the end of class he asked his students this question: “If predestination is true, why should we be involved in evangelism?” One by one the students replied: “I don’t know”; “It beats me”; “I’ve always wondered about that.” Finally the professor came to Sproul. The question was repeated.

After fumbling for words, young Sproul finally answered. Appealing to the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20), he said: “One small point I think we ought to notice here is that God does command us to be involved in evangelism.” Gerstner laughed and conceded that this was the correct response to his question (Boice 1985, 122-23).

That quip, one supposes, was construed to be the solution to the problem of predestination! But, in fact, it answered nothing! It does not even come close to addressing this problem that plagues the dogma of predestination. The Calvinist theory goes something like this:

Humanity, by virtue of its fall in Adam’s “original sin,” lost its ability to make spiritual choices. Accordingly, when one is exposed to the gospel of Christ, no matter how sincere he might be, in his depraved condition he cannot believe it—however hard he may want to, or try.

The sinner is utterly helpless to believe, unless God, by means of a direct operation of the Holy Spirit, opens his heart and empowers him with the “grace” to believe. Upon whom does God decide to pour out this life-changing power? Only those whom he “elected” before the foundation of the world!

These fundamental premises of Calvinism bring us back to the primary question posed earlier. If a person’s salvation was decreed before the foundation of the world, and there is nothing that can be done to alter that, what is the purpose of preaching the gospel to the whole creation when: (a) it would be impossible for the whole creation to believe; (b) the fate of all people already has been “set” (in predetermined theological “concrete” so to speak)?



The fundamental premises of Calvinism may be summed up in this well-known saying of a bygone era:
  • Everyone’s salvation or condemnation was determined before time began.
  • Therefore, if one seeks redemption, he cannot find it.
  • If he finds it, he cannot obtain it.
  • If he obtains it, he cannot lose it!
Such is a maze of incomprehensible confusion. It does not take an Aristotle to conclude that this theological system is beyond the sphere of both inspired Scripture and common sense.


The Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16) contains:
  • facts to be believed;
  • commands to be obeyed;
  • promises to be embraced; and,
  • a potential destiny to be avoided.
The truth of the matter is, the doctrine of Calvinistic predestination makes void every command of God, offers no hope to the obedient, and nullifies every warning of eternal punishment.
It leaves those who know they are lost with a sense of hopelessness.

It provides no confidence of salvation—for one would have no way of knowing whether he is saved or lost.

It leaves those who believe they are saved with a false sense of security, laboring under the illusion they never can be lost, no matter what they do.

It is thoroughly false and must be renounced by conscientious Bible students.





Sources/Footnotes
  • Boice, James Montgomery. 1985. The Christ of the Empty Tomb. Chicago, IL: Moody.
  • Bettenson, Henry. 1947. Documents of the Christian Church. New York, NY: Oxford University Press.
  • Calvin, John. 1975 ed. Institutes of the Christian Religion. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1455-calvinism-and-the-great-commission

(my emp)
 
That's a question you will have to ask those who have not chosen. I cannot answer for them. As for why I chose, the short answer was I became convinced after a long period of questioning and gathering evidence that God was real, that Jesus really had risen from the dead and that I could trust him

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

Hi Grazer,
That's awesome that you've come to that conclusion. So I assume then that the gospel isn't foolishness to you, right? You believe that you deserve the wrath of God and that Jesus suffered it for you so that you could be reconciled to God? If so, then I would say that God has performed a supernatural work in you and that is why you have "chosen" to believe.
I don't have to ask those who don't believe. The Bible tells us why they don't believe.
God bless,
Brian
 
True but an incomplete answer to the tone of the question. The answer is complete in that God commanded it and there is nothing else we need to know beyond that but curiosity still abounds. So the question still remains, why do we need to evangelize? Or let's ask another way. Why do others need to hear it from us?

We are children that are not accepting the, "Because I said so!" answer. How about humoring us with an answer that we can understand from a human perspective.

Hi WIP,

I can understand wanting a better answer, but I thought I did give more to think about...

1)Why do we need to go out and make disciples? Well, first of all, because we've been commanded to do so. Why do we need to do good works if we've already been saved by Jesus' works? Well, probably because it is pleasing to God. But also, do you have no desire to see someone repent and become a lover of God? Is there something you'd rather be doing? Doesn't the idea of having a front-row seat to watch God save someone interest you? It seems to cause a lot of joy in heaven (Luke 15:7).

I guess what I'm saying is God has been so kind as to allow us to bring the good news to people. Are you really not interested in bringing the greatest gift anyone will ever receive to them? The fact is, God doesn't need any of us to do anything for Him. But the real problem with denying predestination is that you must believe that there are many people out there who would be willing to accept the gospel but will spend eternity in hell because nobody presented the gospel to them. God wants them to be saved and they're willing to believe, but because somebody was too busy to go to them God will be sad for all eternity and that person will suffer in hell for all eternity. Quite frankly, I don't think people should be able to sleep with that type of view.

God bless,
Brian
 
One problem is that you would not be able to make one a disciple if God has predetermined before the world began who HE DECIDED would be a disciple and who would not be a disciple. So you would not be doing anything.

Hi Ernest,

It's really not about us. Salvation is from the LORD. God has been so kind as to let us take the news of His salvation to everyone. Those whom He has granted it to will believe. And what a wonderful gift it is to us to allow us to participate in this way.

The view of Calvinism that you posted does not accurately represent Calvinism. There is great joy in the proper understanding of Calvinism. It is wonderfully humbling and God-glorifying.

God bless,
Brian
 
Hi WIP,

I can understand wanting a better answer, but I thought I did give more to think about...

1)Why do we need to go out and make disciples? Well, first of all, because we've been commanded to do so. Why do we need to do good works if we've already been saved by Jesus' works? Well, probably because it is pleasing to God. But also, do you have no desire to see someone repent and become a lover of God? Is there something you'd rather be doing? Doesn't the idea of having a front-row seat to watch God save someone interest you? It seems to cause a lot of joy in heaven (Luke 15:7).

I guess what I'm saying is God has been so kind as to allow us to bring the good news to people. Are you really not interested in bringing the greatest gift anyone will ever receive to them? The fact is, God doesn't need any of us to do anything for Him. But the real problem with denying predestination is that you must believe that there are many people out there who would be willing to accept the gospel but will spend eternity in hell because nobody presented the gospel to them. God wants them to be saved and they're willing to believe, but because somebody was too busy to go to them God will be sad for all eternity and that person will suffer in hell for all eternity. Quite frankly, I don't think people should be able to sleep with that type of view.

God bless,
Brian

So let me see if I understand. What you are saying is that God predestined certain of us but unless we go to them with the gospel they will remain lost. In other words, God can't do it alone? I'm confused.
 
So let me see if I understand. What you are saying is that God predestined certain of us but unless we go to them with the gospel they will remain lost. In other words, God can't do it alone? I'm confused.

Sorry that I wasn't clear. I was saying that if you don't believe that God has chosen who He is going to save and that they're going to be saved regardless of what we do then other people's salvation is dependent on us. And if that is the case then people may spend eternity in hell because we didn't get the message to them that they would've gladly received. I don't believe God would do such a thing.
 
Hi Grazer,
That's awesome that you've come to that conclusion. So I assume then that the gospel isn't foolishness to you, right? You believe that you deserve the wrath of God and that Jesus suffered it for you so that you could be reconciled to God? If so, then I would say that God has performed a supernatural work in you and that is why you have "chosen" to believe.
I don't have to ask those who don't believe. The Bible tells us why they don't believe.
God bless,
Brian

Yes I do believe that, yes God has worked in me, yes I chose of my own free will to accept God and its an offer open to everyone. You really should speak to atheists about why they don't believe, its a real eye opener.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2
 
Sorry that I wasn't clear. I was saying that if you don't believe that God has chosen who He is going to save and that they're going to be saved regardless of what we do then other people's salvation is dependent on us. And if that is the case then people may spend eternity in hell because we didn't get the message to them that they would've gladly received. I don't believe God would do such a thing.

So I want to make sure I fully understand so please forgive my repetition. You're saying that God did in fact predestine "some" but not all to be saved. You are also saying that all those who He has not predestined for saving are not necessarily predestined for hell either and we are called to evangelize them so they too may be saved?
 
Yes I do believe that, yes God has worked in me, yes I chose of my own free will to accept God and its an offer open to everyone. You really should speak to atheists about why they don't believe, its a real eye opener.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

Hi Grazer,

Yes, it is an offer that is extended to everyone. But it is an offer that will only be accepted if God changes the person's heart and puts His Spirit in them. And I have actually spent a lot of time talking to atheists. What I have found is that they don't believe because they don't want it to be true. And why don't they want it to be true? Because they hate the Light and love darkness (John 3:19). So then the question becomes why don't you hate the Light? Why are you willing to come to the Light? The Bible answers that question too. It's because God circumcised your heart and put His Spirit in you. God granted you belief and drew you. It's an amazing act of God's grace.

God bless,
Brian
 
Hi Grazer,

Yes, it is an offer that is extended to everyone. But it is an offer that will only be accepted if God changes the person's heart and puts His Spirit in them. And I have actually spent a lot of time talking to atheists. What I have found is that they don't believe because they don't want it to be true. And why don't they want it to be true? Because they hate the Light and love darkness (John 3:19). So then the question becomes why don't you hate the Light? Why are you willing to come to the Light? The Bible answers that question too. It's because God circumcised your heart and put His Spirit in you. God granted you belief and drew you. It's an amazing act of God's grace.

God bless,
Brian

And if he doesn't? You're just unlucky?

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2
 
I think its a question that needs to be pondered if that's the position you take. If God has already chosen who will be saved, why do we need to "go out and make disciples" to quote Jesus? Why did Jesus have to do what he did? Nothing else makes sense to me and as my signature says; "what I believe in my heart must make sense in my mind" It doesn't have to make complete sense, I don't have to fully understand it but it has to make some sense as opposed to the zero that predestination does to me.

If we don't choose God then what else don't we choose? If people aren't called to be saved, then they're sinners by Gods choice so are they accountable to him really?

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2
This is why this topic is so complicated: I see strong Biblical support for predestination, but there is certainly an element of free will there too. I believe these two can co-exist, and that is hard to get our minds around. As to why some are 'chosen' and not others, that is what I'm saying we need not bother worrying about. I understand it can be a stumbling block. But trying to understand what God's motives are in regards to election I think is a fruitless exercise that cannot be understood properly by us. But i believe that God is loving and just. That's all I need.

Why we have to go and make disciples is because God uses us in His plans. And because we have not been told who the elect are, we are to preach the Word to everyone.
 
But I do worry. It speaks to the very nature of God. I see no grace, mercy or love in choosing who will live and die and not giving them any chance of changing their fate. I find no comfort in being saved because God likes me more than someone else

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2
 
But I do worry. It speaks to the very nature of God. I see no grace, mercy or love in choosing who will live and die and not giving them any chance of changing their fate. I find no comfort in being saved because God likes me more than someone else

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2
You are assuming God chose you because he loves you more than someone else.

I think there might be a misunderstanding with predestination here. i believe that God chooses those who will repent, but they are unable to do so themselves until their hearts are softened, and I guess that's where the free will comes in.
 
You are assuming God chose you because he loves you more than someone else.

I think there might be a misunderstanding with predestination here. i believe that God chooses those who will repent, but they are unable to do so themselves until their hearts are softened, and I guess that's where the free will comes in.

But doesn't it say only God can soften our hearts?

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2
 
So I want to make sure I fully understand so please forgive my repetition. You're saying that God did in fact predestine "some" but not all to be saved. You are also saying that all those who He has not predestined for saving are not necessarily predestined for hell either and we are called to evangelize them so they too may be saved?

Hi WIP,
No problem regarding the repetition. It seems I haven't done a very good job explaining what I'm trying to say. Let me try again.

I'm saying that all who will be saved have been predestined by God to be saved. But then you will ask why we should bother evangelizing if all who are predestined to be saved will be saved? Well, as you should know all too well, "joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." Would you not share in that joy of the repentance of a sinner even if it did not depend on you? If you just brought the message and got to see the person be saved would you have no joy if the person would have been saved anyway? Salvation is of the LORD and does not depend on us. And thank God that it does not!

Let's look at the flip-side now. I'm assuming we share the belief that not everyone will be saved. Do you believe that anyone will end up in hell who would've believed the gospel and repented but nobody made it to that person? Or nobody did a good enough job of presenting the gospel? What would that say about God? Do you really think God would let someone who was willing to believe and repent suffer for all eternity because nobody evangelized to them? If not, then I ask you the same question. Why bother evangelizing?

God bless,
Brian
 
But I do worry. It speaks to the very nature of God. I see no grace, mercy or love in choosing who will live and die and not giving them any chance of changing their fate. I find no comfort in being saved because God likes me more than someone else

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

Hi Grazer,

I can understand your perspective. I would have (and did) feel the same way not that long ago. I would like to encourage you to wrestle with this and ask God to give you understanding. The reason why I struggled with this so much was that I didn't really understand God's holiness and man's sinfulness. What you have to understand is that nobody deserves a chance to change their fate. Imagine a murderer being locked up for life and saying that it is unjust that he wasn't given a choice to change his fate and leave prison. You can't view people as innocent before God. God is not required to save anyone or even to give the offer of salvation to anyone. Justice would be for God to condemn everyone without any mention of salvation. Now if everyone deserves hell and God saves some then why do you question His mercy, justice, and love?

And as Nick pointed out, there is nothing about you that moved God to save you. You did not deserve it more than someone else. You deserved to perish just like everyone else. It is only in God Himself that a reason can be found for our salvation. It is 100% undeserved.

I would recommend reading the Holiness of God by R.C. Sproul. It really helped me come to an understanding of God's grace.

God bless,
Brian
 
But God has taken the punishment for everyone on the cross and defeated death with his resurrection. No one did anything to deserve it but that doesn't mean it wasn't for everyone. God has called everyone to him, we can approach and respond because of what Christ did on the cross.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2
 
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