My approach to predestination and salvation

[bfiddy]

But God has taken the punishment for everyone on the cross and defeated death with his resurrection. No one did anything to deserve it but that doesn't mean it wasn't for everyone. God has called everyone to him, we can approach and respond because of what Christ did on the cross.

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Hi Grazer,

Yes, there is a general call to all, but a limited effectual call. Many are called, but few are chosen. And Christ died for the sheep, not everyone (John 10:15). Regardless of what you believe about predestination it doesn't make any sense to believe Christ suffered the punishment for sins that will be punished again by God upon sinners in hell.

Again, I would recommend spending time with God wresting with this topic. Spend time in God's Word.

God bless,
Brian

 

[Grazer]

Hi Grazer,

Yes, there is a general call to all, but a limited effectual call. Many are called, but few are chosen. And Christ died for the sheep, not everyone (John 10:15). Regardless of what you believe about predestination it doesn't make any sense to believe Christ suffered the punishment for sins that will be punished again by God upon sinners in hell.

Again, I would recommend spending time with God wresting with this topic. Spend time in God's Word.

God bless,
Brian

Already have and continue to do so and this is where I'm at with it and him

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[WIP]

Hi WIP,
No problem regarding the repetition. It seems I haven't done a very good job explaining what I'm trying to say. Let me try again.

I'm saying that all who will be saved have been predestined by God to be saved. But then you will ask why we should bother evangelizing if all who are predestined to be saved will be saved? Well, as you should know all too well, "joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." Would you not share in that joy of the repentance of a sinner even if it did not depend on you? If you just brought the message and got to see the person be saved would you have no joy if the person would have been saved anyway? Salvation is of the LORD and does not depend on us. And thank God that it does not!

Let's look at the flip-side now. I'm assuming we share the belief that not everyone will be saved. Do you believe that anyone will end up in hell who would've believed the gospel and repented but nobody made it to that person? Or nobody did a good enough job of presenting the gospel? What would that say about God? Do you really think God would let someone who was willing to believe and repent suffer for all eternity because nobody evangelized to them? If not, then I ask you the same question. Why bother evangelizing?

God bless,
Brian

It also seems to suggest that if I am the one or one of many that will present the gospel to so-and-so in such a way that they too will come to believe, then I am merely a vehicle in God's plan and have done nothing of my own free will. In other words, it wasn't me that evangelized but God. This would then suggest that in my scenario I have been predestined to be that vehicle.

 

[bfiddy]

Already have and continue to do so and this is where I'm at with it and him

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

That's great! I'd like to encourage you to continue with what you are doing then.

God bless,
Brian

 

[bfiddy]

It also seems to suggest that if I am the one or one of many that will present the gospel to so-and-so in such a way that they too will come to believe, then I am merely a vehicle in God's plan and have done nothing of my own free will. In other words, it wasn't me that evangelized but God. This would then suggest that in my scenario I have been predestined to be that vehicle.

I'm not entirely sure that I understand what you're saying, but I think I agree with you. Yes, you would be predestined to bring the gospel to someone. God lets us share in the joy of announcing His salvation to people. And of course this will be according to your will since you love God.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Ernest,
God would not be culpable for the lost in this situation. If 10 men are about to be executed for crimes they committed and the governor pardons 5 of them then the governor is not then culpable for the execution of the other 5.

That analogy isn't the right one. The governor didn't create those men to do evil and then judge them for doing the very thing he created them for. You see, if men are born totally depraved and unable to do good as Calvinists claim, then they are not liable for their actions and can't righteously be judged. One can judge water for being wet, that all it can be, it cannot be dry, its very nature is to be wet. Likewise If a man can only do evil then he cannot righteously be judged for being evil. Even humans forms of judgment realize this. The one who is not capable of understanding right from wrong is not judged and condemned for his actions. Surely we would expect more righteousness from a holy God than we would from fallen man.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Grazer,

In my opinion, most of what you said is correct. The one problem with what you said is this...
"God has chosen everyone by Jesus's act on the cross and his resurrection."

God chose the elect, not everyone. The ones He chose He gave to Jesus, put His Spirit in them, gave them a new heart, eyes to see, ears to hear, and the ability to believe and repent.
John 6:37 (NAS) - “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
John 6:44 (NAS) - “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Based on John 6:44 we know that everyone who the Father draws will be saved. The question is then will the Father draw everyone? If He will then everyone will be saved and the Bible clearly doesn't support that view. God has chosen a group of people to save by grace and grace alone. The others have been passed over and left in their sins to receive justice.

This is a very difficult thing to accept, however. I did not want to believe it, but after wrestling with it for a while I've come to find that it removes all boasting from man and glorifies God's grace.

Those men given to Christ were the apostles and disciples of His day and at least one of them was lost. If you notice Jesus' words in John 17 He speaks of those the Father gave Him.

KJV John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
(Joh 17:1-24 KJV)

Jesus prays here for two groups of people, those who were given to Him (past tense) and those who "will" (future) believe on Him through their words. The reason only those who were drawn by God could come to Christ is because the Jews were blinded. This blinding was prophesied by Isaiah and spoken of by both Jesus and Paul. They were blinded so that the crucifixion could take place. However, Jesus said if He was lifted up He would draw all unto Himself. So, after the cross the drawing is universal. Additionally, not all of those who were chosen will be saved. Jesus said, Judas was lost.

You see, those verse from John "must" be understood in their historical context as must the rest of the Scriptures.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, I completely agree with John 3:16. Whoever believes will be saved. But only those who are: Christ's sheep, of God, the elect, drawn by the Father, etc, will believe.

If you believe that 2 Peter 3:9 is talking about every person ever created (and not the elect) then I have a couple of questions for you.
1)If God is not willing that any should perish and He knows all things then why would He create souls that would perish? If He is able to look throughout time and see that a certain person would never choose to believe then why did He create that person?
2)This verse is talking about why Christ hasn't returned yet. Do you really think Christ is delaying His return for those whom He knows are not going to come to repentance? Of course not. He's waiting for all of those whom He knows will come to repentance (the elect) to return.

God bless,
Brian

John 3:16 doesn't say whoever believes will be saved. It says the one believing "should" not perish. The Greek word perish is in the subjunctive mood indicating possibility or probability, not certainty.

 

[Butch5]

This is why this topic is so complicated: I see strong Biblical support for predestination, but there is certainly an element of free will there too. I believe these two can co-exist, and that is hard to get our minds around. As to why some are 'chosen' and not others, that is what I'm saying we need not bother worrying about. I understand it can be a stumbling block. But trying to understand what God's motives are in regards to election I think is a fruitless exercise that cannot be understood properly by us. But i believe that God is loving and just. That's all I need.

Why we have to go and make disciples is because God uses us in His plans. And because we have not been told who the elect are, we are to preach the Word to everyone.

Hi Nick,

The reason it's hard to get one's mind around it is because the doctrine of Predestination that is taught in most church circles in "NOT" what the Bible teaches about predestination. People try to fit Calvin's teaching of predestination into the Scriptures. Calvin's definition is wrong. Free will and predestination can be easily reconciled when they are understood from a Biblical context according to Paul's writings. The problem is that most Christians have been taught to proof text the Scriptures, i.e. the Bibles says xyz, see this verse and this verse and this verse. That's not the way the Authors wrote, Paul wrote letters and as such everything he says needs to be understood in the context of the letter in which was written. Who was Paul writing to, who was Paul talking about, what was Paul talking about? None of these things are taken into account when Christians proof text the Scriptures. Paul wasn't writing a bunch of one liners which is how many Christians approach his writings.

Two of the main reasons that Predestination is misunderstood are.
1. The passages that speak of predestination are speaking "about" the Jews.
2. The teaching that everything God wills must happen. That is not the case. Just because someone is predestined does not guarantee that that person will reach that goal.

Once there two issues are addressed there is nothing difficult about understanding the doctrine of Predestination.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Grazer,

Yes, there is a general call to all, but a limited effectual call. Many are called, but few are chosen. And Christ died for the sheep, not everyone (John 10:15). Regardless of what you believe about predestination it doesn't make any sense to believe Christ suffered the punishment for sins that will be punished again by God upon sinners in hell.

Again, I would recommend spending time with God wresting with this topic. Spend time in God's Word.

God bless,
Brian

It also doesn't make any sense that Christ died and paid for the sins of the elect and yet they also will die to pay for their sins. Why would there be a double payment?

 

[bfiddy]

It also doesn't make any sense that Christ died and paid for the sins of the elect and yet they also will die to pay for their sins. Why would there be a double payment?

Hi Butch,
I do not view my upcoming physical death as a punishment for sins. By dying, I will go to be with the Lord. Surely, this is not a punishment.
God bless,
Brian

 

[bfiddy]

Those men given to Christ were the apostles and disciples of His day and at least one of them was lost. If you notice Jesus' words in John 17 He speaks of those the Father gave Him.

There's a pretty big problem with that view.
John 6:39 (NAS) - “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

You're saying Judas was included in this group referenced in John 6 and that Jesus lost him, thus failing to do the will of the Father. If Jesus didn't do the will of the Father then He sinned and was unable to be our Savior and pay the price for our sins.

 

[bfiddy]

However, Jesus said if He was lifted up He would draw all unto Himself. So, after the cross the drawing is universal. Additionally, not all of those who were chosen will be saved. Jesus said, Judas was lost.

You see, those verse from John "must" be understood in their historical context as must the rest of the Scriptures.

Yes, context is important. And you do know that Jesus was answering a question concerning the Greeks when He said He would draw all men to Himself. All men meant Jews and Greeks.

 

[bfiddy]

That analogy is the right one. The governor did create those men to do evil and then judge them for doing the very thing he created them for. You see, if men are born totally depraved and unable to do good as Calvinists claim, then they are not liable for their actions and can't righteously be judged. One can judge water for being wet, that all it can be, it cannot be dry, its very nature is to be wet. Likewise If a man can only do evil then he cannot righteously be judged for being evil. Even humans forms of judgment realize this. The one who is not capable of understanding right from wrong is not judged and condemned for his actions. Surely we would expect more righteousness from a holy God than we would from fallen man.

Based on this view I can certainly understand why you refuse to accept the doctrines of grace. I've already addressed this issue in this thread, but here it is again...

What you seem to be missing is that every man was perfectly represented by Adam. If it was you in the garden instead of Adam you would have done the exact same thing. God, being perfect, chose the perfect representative for you (and everyone else) in Adam. And so, we are responsible for what Adam did in the way that a man is responsible for the murder of a hitman that he hires to do what he wants done. Because of the fall, we are born evil and haters of God. Every single person would reject the offer of salvation if God did not change them first.

You seem to be referring to hyper-Calvinism (or better called, anti-Calvinism) in making God the author of sin. That is not a proper view of Calvinism.

God bless,
Brian

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch,
I do not view my upcoming physical death as a punishment for sins. By dying, I will go to be with the Lord. Surely, this is not a punishment.
God bless,
Brian

Hi bfiddy,

With all due respect, it doesn't matter how we view or don't view something, what matters is what the Scriptures say. Paul said the wages of sin is death. Everyone sins, everyone dies. If Christ paid for that then it is paid twice or Christians wouldn't die.

 

[Butch5]

There's a pretty big problem with that view.
John 6:39 (NAS) - “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

You're saying Judas was included in this group referenced in John 6 and that Jesus lost him, thus failing to do the will of the Father. If Jesus didn't do the will of the Father then He sinned and was unable to be our Savior and pay the price for our sins.

That's a non sequitur. Judas not being saved is not sin. It was God's will that none be lost, however, Jesus said Judas was lost. Jesus said,

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (Joh 6:39 KJV)

He said, it was the Father's will that "I should lose nothing." That doesn't mean none would be lost but only that it was God's will that none be lost. In John 17 Jesus said,

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (Joh 17:12 KJV)

The word "but" shows us there was an exception in the statement.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, context is important. And you do know that Jesus was answering a question concerning the Greeks when He said He would draw all men to Himself. All men meant Jews and Greeks.

I've heard that before and haven't seen anyone exegete that from the passage. He doesn't give any qualifications to all men. John tells us in chapter 1 that Christ gives light (understanding) to every person coming into the world. If you can present anything contextually that limits Jesus' statement to simply Jew and Greek please feel free to present it.

 

[Butch5]

Based on this view I can certainly understand why you refuse to accept the doctrines of grace. I've already addressed this issue in this thread, but here it is again...

What you seem to be missing is that every man was perfectly represented by Adam. If it was you in the garden instead of Adam you would have done the exact same thing. God, being perfect, chose the perfect representative for you (and everyone else) in Adam. And so, we are responsible for what Adam did in the way that a man is responsible for the murder of a hitman that he hires to do what he wants done. Because of the fall, we are born evil and haters of God. Every single person would reject the offer of salvation if God did not change them first.

You seem to be referring to hyper-Calvinism (or better called, anti-Calvinism) in making God the author of sin. That is not a proper view of Calvinism.

God bless,
Brian

Hi bfiddy,

I am well aware of what Calvinism teaches as I was a Calvinist. What you've presented here are simply assumptions. I refuse to accept "the doctrines of grace" because I have studied the Scriptures and the doctrine well enough to know that the Scriptures do not teach the "doctrines of grace." Your statement that we are all represented in Adam is an opinion, I believe you'll find that stated in Scripture. The Scriptures tell us that every man will die for His own sins, not the sins of others.

4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin. (2Ch 25:4 KJV)

This passage alone refutes the idea that men die for Adam's sin. It is also an assumption to say I'd do the same thing that Adam did if I was in the same position. You nor I know that. YOu said because of the fall we are born evil, how is that? Adam was created very good and yet he had the capacity for sin and did sin, what makes us worse than Adam? You also said that every person would reject salvation if God did not change them first. Here again, these are just assumptions and cannot be proven from Scripture. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates a person is changed before they believe the Gospel. That idea is forced on the Scriptures in order to support the doctrines, it is not derived from Scripture. Let me say also that I did not indicate in anyway that God is the author of sin.

The doctrines of grace or the five points of Calvinism simply cannot be found stated in the Scriptures. It is a theology that is built on inferences not clear statements from Scripture. All of the proof texts used to support Calvinism can easily be understood contextually in a framework outside of Calvinism.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi Ernest,

It's really not about us. Salvation is from the LORD. God has been so kind as to let us take the news of His salvation to everyone. Those whom He has granted it to will believe. And what a wonderful gift it is to us to allow us to participate in this way.

The view of Calvinism that you posted does not accurately represent Calvinism. There is great joy in the proper understanding of Calvinism. It is wonderfully humbling and God-glorifying.

God bless,
Brian

Heb 5:9 it is about us obeying in order to be saved. So salvation was never some arbitary, unconditonal choice God made for man before the world began, before man even existed.

The base problem with Calvinism is it makes God culpable for the lost.

 

[heymikey80]

Heb 5:9 it is about us obeying in order to be saved. So salvation was never some arbitary, unconditonal choice God made for man before the world began, before man even existed.

If the obedience is "not work, but believe" ...

The base problem with Calvinism is it makes God culpable for the lost.

Not any more a problem with Calvinism as with any other nonheretical Christian view.