My approach to predestination and salvation

[bfiddy]

Hi bfiddy,

With all due respect, it doesn't matter how we view or don't view something, what matters is what the Scriptures say. Paul said the wages of sin is death. Everyone sins, everyone dies. If Christ paid for that then it is paid twice or Christians wouldn't die.

Hi Butch,

I completely agree with you that what matters is what the scriptures say. And not everyone will die physically. Everyone died spiritually because of the fall. Dying physically for Christians is a mercy, not a punishment.

God bless,
Brian

 

[bfiddy]

The doctrines of grace or the five points of Calvinism simply cannot be found stated in the Scriptures. It is a theology that is built on inferences not clear statements from Scripture. All of the proof texts used to support Calvinism can easily be understood contextually in a framework outside of Calvinism.

Hi Butch,

I personally believe that this doctrine is stated all throughout scripture. So much so that I believe that it is a dislike for the doctrine that prevents people from accepting it. So can you tell me what you think of the doctrine? Do you think it would be nice if it was true since it glorifies God and humbles man but you just can't find it in scripture? Or are you glad you don't find it in scripture because you don't like it?

God bless,
Brian

 

[bfiddy]

Heb 5:9 it is about us obeying in order to be saved. So salvation was never some arbitary, unconditonal choice God made for man before the world began, before man even existed.

The base problem with Calvinism is it makes God culpable for the lost.

Hi Ernest,

Interpreting Hebrews 5:9 in that way is a different gospel. The proper interpretation is that those whom He saved obey Him. Not that we obey in order to be saved. That would be being saved by works, not grace.

As for God being culpable for the lost, I'll say what I've already said. Nobody who rejects Calvinism (and open theism) has ever given me an answer to this.
Why then did God choose to create people whom He knew would be lost? You see, this is a big difference between our views. In your view God knows people will not be saved even though He really wants them to be saved and yet He creates them anyway. Now those people are suffering eternal punishment for no purpose whatsoever. That seems rather evil, doesn't it? But in my view...
Proverbs 16:4 (NAS) - The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:22-23 (NAS) - What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
God is glorified not only in His mercy, but in His punishment of evil. In fact, His mercy is magnified in His punishment of evil. Those who receive His wrath have a purpose.

God bless,
Brian

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch,

I completely agree with you that what matters is what the scriptures say. And not everyone will die physically. Everyone died spiritually because of the fall. Dying physically for Christians is a mercy, not a punishment.

God bless,
Brian

Hi bfiddy,

There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of being spiritually dead, that too is inferred. Paul uses the word death as a metaphor in many of his writings. Somehow that metaphor has be misunderstood as spiritual death. You don't see death as a punishment? Why then would Jesus have to overcome it. One wouldn't want to overcome mercy.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch,

I personally believe that this doctrine is stated all throughout scripture. So much so that I believe that it is a dislike for the doctrine that prevents people from accepting it. So can you tell me what you think of the doctrine? Do you think it would be nice if it was true since it glorifies God and humbles man but you just can't find it in scripture? Or are you glad you don't find it in scripture because you don't like it?

God bless,

Brian

Hi bfiddy,

The doctrines of Predestination and Election are in the Scriptures and I fully accept them. It is the Calvinist interpretation of those doctrines that I reject. I was at one time a Calvinist so I am aware of the "doctrines of grace" and what the teach. It is the Calvinist's interpretation of these doctrines that is inferred and cannot be found clearly stated in Scripture. For instance, there is no teaching in Scripture that says man is totally depraved and unable to come to God. That idea is inferred from passages such as Ephesians 2, when Paul says you were dead in your sins. The Calvinist says this means spiritually and a dead man cannot do anything therefore he cannot turn to God. This is simply imposing and inferring what is not said. In the first case, that passage does not say a man is spiritually dead, that is inferred from other passages and imposed on this one. Then Paul's death metaphor is carried to the extreme. His metaphor is to show that man was unable to change his former condition, however, that doesn't mean he can't seek help from God.

Regarding glorifying God, I don't believe the doctrines of grace glorify God. I believe they impugn His character and make Him out to be a respecter of Persons which the Scriptures clearly say He is not. The Scriptures say God is love, yet the doctrines of grace say that God created people who, will through no fault of their own be destroyed. Would you glorify someone who punished a lame man for not walking, or a mute for not talking? What about punishing the deaf for not hearing, is that something that should be glorified. If a man did these things to his children would he praised as a loving, caring father? I don't think so, society would call him a monster. Yet this is how the doctrines of grace portray God. So, no, I don't think they glorify God.

Additionally, you said you see the doctrines all over Scripture. Could please point out some of these instances? Instances where they are stated, not inferred.

 

[Nick]

But God has taken the punishment for everyone on the cross and defeated death with his resurrection. No one did anything to deserve it but that doesn't mean it wasn't for everyone. God has called everyone to him, we can approach and respond because of what Christ did on the cross.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

Yes, Jesus died for everyone, but it will not be effective for everyone because not everyone will repent.

Who has God called?

Romans 8:26-30 (ESV)
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because[g] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Footnotes
G. Romans 8:27 Or that
H. Romans 8:28 Some manuscripts God works all things together for good, or God works in all things for the good​

 

[heymikey80]

That idea is inferred from passages such as Ephesians 2, when Paul says you were dead in your sins. The Calvinist says this means spiritually and a dead man cannot do anything therefore he cannot turn to God. This is simply imposing and inferring what is not said. In the first case, that passage does not say a man is spiritually dead, that is inferred from other passages and imposed on this one. Then Paul's death metaphor is carried to the extreme. His metaphor is to show that man was unable to change his former condition, however, that doesn't mean he can't seek help from God.

Jesus' statements to Nicodemus:

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:3-8 ESV

Metaphor? Why would Jesus say you must be born again when it's only a metaphor? And the birth is from the Spirit, it appears. In what way is this not a spiritual coming to life, how else is birth understood?

Then there's Romans 8

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. Romans 8:5-11

Here Paul is definitely not talking metaphorically. If Paul is talking metaphorically, then our resurrection is metaphorical.

 

[Grazer]

Yes, Jesus died for everyone, but it will not be effective for everyone because not everyone will repent.

Who has God called?

Romans 8:26-30 (ESV)
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because[g] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Footnotes
G. Romans 8:27 Or that
H. Romans 8:28 Some manuscripts God works all things together for good, or God works in all things for the good​

I have no problems with that. The only thing I disagree with is God has already decided who will and who won't repent and those who he's decided won't don't even get the chance

 

[Butch5]

Jesus' statements to Nicodemus:

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unlessone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him,“How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into hismother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you,unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spiritis spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 Thewind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know whereit comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of theSpirit.” John 3:3-8 ESV

Metaphor? Why would Jesus say you must be born again when it's only ametaphor? And the birth is from the Spirit, it appears. In what way is this nota spiritual coming to life, how else is birth understood?

Hi Mikey,

The phrase born again is only used in speaking to Jews. The nation of Israelwas God's son. God Himself said that. The Jews being the physical seed ofAbraham believed they were heirs to the promises God made to Abraham by theirphysical birth. Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he must be born again to seethe kingdom of God. In other words his physical was not sufficient to gain himaccess into the kingdom of God. You see, in Ephesians 2 Paul is addressingGentiles who were not God's son through physical birth so they would not beborn again, they would be born the for the first time as God's sons.

Let me ask a question, before a person is born are they dead, or do theysimply not exist? If a person was spiritually dead before hand would theyneed are resurrection of the spirit as opposed to a birth? According to theScriptures when the body dies physically it is resurrected, not born again. Ibelieve there is a lot of misunderstanding about the term born again because itis taken outside of it's Jewish context. I believe the birth of the Spirit is ametaphor for receiving the Holy Spirit. If it was truly a new birth of a deadspirit why would the Christian still live susceptible to sin? I don't how thathelps, A spiritually dead person is subject to sin and a spiritually aliveperson is susceptible to sin?

There is another problem with taking Paul's statement as speaking of beingspiritually dead, God said that if He took back His spirit all flesh would die.

14 If he set his heart upon man, ifhe gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perishtogether, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

How can anyone be spirituallydead when their very existence relies upon God's spirit?

Then there's Romans 8

For those who live according to the flesh settheir minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to theSpirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind onthe flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 Forthe mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit toGod's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spiritof God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does notbelong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because ofsin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him whoraised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from thedead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells inyou. Romans 8:5-11

Here Paul is definitely not talking metaphorically. If Paul is talkingmetaphorically, then our resurrection is metaphorical.

I didn't say everywhere he uses the word it is a metaphor, he does,however, use it as metaphor in places. There is nothing in Scripture (thatI've found) that speaks of spiritual death, that's how we know he's usinga metaphor. In Romans he uses life and death as a metaphor together.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall becalled an adulteress: but if her husband be dead,she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be marriedto another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also arebecome dead to the law by the body ofChrist; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raisedfrom the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, themotions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forthfruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law,that being dead wherein we were held; thatwe should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the lawsin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not knownlust, except the law had said,
Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by thecommandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sinwas dead.
9 For I was alivewithout the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which wasordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by thecommandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and thecommandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death untome? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by thatwhich is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. (Rom7:3-13 KJV)

We can both the literal andmetaphorical use of life and death in this passage.

 

[bfiddy]

Hi bfiddy,

There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of being spiritually dead, that too is inferred. Paul uses the word death as a metaphor in many of his writings. Somehow that metaphor has be misunderstood as spiritual death. You don't see death as a punishment? Why then would Jesus have to overcome it. One wouldn't want to overcome mercy.

Hi Butch,

No, I don't consider physical death a punishment. And neither did Paul.
Philippians 1:23 - But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

The death that Jesus overcame I will not experience because He suffered it for me.
John 8:51 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

God bless,
Brian

 

[bfiddy]

Hi bfiddy,

The doctrines of Predestination and Election are in the Scriptures and I fully accept them. It is the Calvinist interpretation of those doctrines that I reject. I was at one time a Calvinist so I am aware of the "doctrines of grace" and what the teach. It is the Calvinist's interpretation of these doctrines that is inferred and cannot be found clearly stated in Scripture. For instance, there is no teaching in Scripture that says man is totally depraved and unable to come to God. That idea is inferred from passages such as Ephesians 2, when Paul says you were dead in your sins. The Calvinist says this means spiritually and a dead man cannot do anything therefore he cannot turn to God. This is simply imposing and inferring what is not said. In the first case, that passage does not say a man is spiritually dead, that is inferred from other passages and imposed on this one. Then Paul's death metaphor is carried to the extreme. His metaphor is to show that man was unable to change his former condition, however, that doesn't mean he can't seek help from God.

Regarding glorifying God, I don't believe the doctrines of grace glorify God. I believe they impugn His character and make Him out to be a respecter of Persons which the Scriptures clearly say He is not. The Scriptures say God is love, yet the doctrines of grace say that God created people who, will through no fault of their own be destroyed. Would you glorify someone who punished a lame man for not walking, or a mute for not talking? What about punishing the deaf for not hearing, is that something that should be glorified. If a man did these things to his children would he praised as a loving, caring father? I don't think so, society would call him a monster. Yet this is how the doctrines of grace portray God. So, no, I don't think they glorify God.

Additionally, you said you see the doctrines all over Scripture. Could please point out some of these instances? Instances where they are stated, not inferred.

Hi Butch,

You continue to misrepresent Calvinism and the doctrines of grace. Man is not like a poor lame man who wishes to walk but is unable. And because he is unable God punishes him. No, man is actually like Joseph's brothers.

Genesis 37:4 (NAS) - His brothers saw that their father loved him more than all his brothers; and so they hated him and could not speak to him on friendly terms.

Did Joseph's brothers not have tongues or not speak the same language as Joseph? They had everything they needed to speak to Joseph on friendly terms and yet they could not because they were unwilling. And so it is with man. God commands each and every man to come into the light and yet they refuse. And they refuse because they hate God and love evil. But you say God is unjust then because He made them evil. God made man good and He chose to allow sin to enter through one man, Adam, and have him represent all men. Now the whole lump is useless and evil. And so there is no injustice for God to make some from the lump for honorable use and some for dishonorable use. There is no injustice because the whole lump deserves to only be used for dishonorable use.

But if you read Romans 9 correctly you will find yourself raising the very objections that Paul addresses ("God is not just" and "God can't still find fault").

Romans 9:19-24 (NAS)
19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

And 9:24 makes it clear that this isn't just about Jews or nations.

God bless,
Brian

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch,

You continue to misrepresent Calvinism and the doctrines of grace. Man is not like a poor lame man who wishes to walk but is unable. And because he is unable God punishes him. No, man is actually like Joseph's brothers.

Genesis 37:4 (NAS) - His brothers saw that their father loved him more than all his brothers; and so they hated him and could not speak to him on friendly terms.

I'm not misrepresenting Calvinism. I said nothing about a man wanting to walk, it seems you've imposed that on what I said. According to Calvinism a man is born unable to do good and is then judged for not doing good. It has nothing to do with what the man wants. Haven't you noticed how the Calvinist must change the what is said to address the question?

Did Joseph's brothers not have tongues or not speak the same language as Joseph? They had everything they needed to speak to Joseph on friendly terms and yet they could not because they were unwilling. And so it is with man. God commands each and every man to come into the light and yet they refuse. And they refuse because they hate God and love evil. But you say God is unjust then because He made them evil. God made man good and He chose to allow sin to enter through one man, Adam, and have him represent all men. Now the whole lump is useless and evil. And so there is no injustice for God to make some from the lump for honorable use and some for dishonorable use. There is no injustice because the whole lump deserves to only be used for dishonorable use.

But if you read Romans 9 correctly you will find yourself raising the very objections that Paul addresses ("God is not just" and "God can't still find fault").

Romans 9:19-24 (NAS)
19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

And 9:24 makes it clear that this isn't just about Jews or nations.

God bless,
Brian

Did you notice that section you bolded speaks of the past, God called, past tense. If you follow Paul's argument you'll see that what he is teaching here is how God has fulfilled His promises to Abraham. God had called Gentiles in the past, that is before Paul was writing his letter, men such as Noah, Enoch, Seth, Abraham, etc. these men were Gentiles and were called by God for specific purposes. Those purposes ultimately lead to the formation of the nation of Israel. In Romans 9 Paul is not talking about choosing people to be saved.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch,

No, I don't consider physical death a punishment. And neither did Paul.
Philippians 1:23 - But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

The death that Jesus overcame I will not experience because He suffered it for me.
John 8:51 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

God bless,
Brian

What do you think they were referring to?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If the obedience is "not work, but believe" ...

Belief is an obedient work not a work of merit.

Not any more a problem with Calvinism as with any other nonheretical Christian view.

God not lying but keeping His promises to save the obedient and have vengeacne upon those that obey not is biblical. Putting culpability on God for the lost is unbiblical.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi Ernest,

Interpreting Hebrews 5:9 in that way is a different gospel. The proper interpretation is that those whom He saved obey Him. Not that we obey in order to be saved. That would be being saved by works, not grace.

To read Heb 5:9 in any other way than Christ saves those that obey Him is changing the verse.

I can show you many verses as Acts 2:38 or Rom 10:9,10 that put obedience BEFORE salvation and not after. These two verses put obedience in believing, repenting, confession and being baptized BEFORE salvation. Not a single one of those verses says one believes because he is already saved, one repents because he is already saved, one confesses with the mouth and baptized because he is already saved. You have reversed the order and put the cart before the horse.

Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Paul says we all obey one of two masters, we either obey 1) sin unto death or 2) obedience unto righteousness.

I obey #2. Unfortunately for many people their philosophy has ruled out #2 for them leaving for them a very bad choice.

As for God being culpable for the lost, I'll say what I've already said. Nobody who rejects Calvinism (and open theism) has ever given me an answer to this.
Why then did God choose to create people whom He knew would be lost? You see, this is a big difference between our views. In your view God knows people will not be saved even though He really wants them to be saved and yet He creates them anyway. Now those people are suffering eternal punishment for no purpose whatsoever. That seems rather evil, doesn't it? But in my view...
Proverbs 16:4 (NAS) - The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:22-23 (NAS) - What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
God is glorified not only in His mercy, but in His punishment of evil. In fact, His mercy is magnified in His punishment of evil. Those who receive His wrath have a purpose.

God bless,
Brian

God has foreknowledge, so before the world began He already knew who would and would not be saved. But foreknowledge does NOT necessitate predetermination. God created man will free will so God allowed man have the ability choose whether he will or will not obey God.

Predetermining a person to be lost so that when he is born he is forced to be lost, born with no choice, no hope, no chance of being saved is far diffrent than being born and allowed to choose for yourself if you will choose to obey and be saved or disobey and be lost.

Matt 25:24 the man with one talent called God a "hard man" for he was trying to blame God for his action of burying his one talent. According to some people's theology the man was right and justified for blaming God for God did predetermine that he bury his talent and the man had no choice but bury his talent as God prederminely forced him to. Yet he was cast into outer darkness for blaming God for what he chose of his own will to do.


As for Prov 16:4 a totally pure, holy God would not create evil for God would be evil if He created evil. The verse is saying that in the end, God will mete out to everyone what he/she deserves.

The English translation does not most accurately reflect the underlying Hebrew language. "All [things] for Himself is "ma' aneh" meaning to give a response, reply or answer. So all things must give a response, a reply to God, all things must give an answer to God.....The Lord hath made all things to give an answer or reply or give an account unto Him.


To paraphrase: The LORD hath made all things to give an answer, a reply, an account unto Him, even the wicked have to give an account unto God on the day of judgment.


Each person will be judged according to his works, Rom 2:6-11. So the kind of works a person does is how God will determine how everyone will be judged. Each person will have to give an answer, a reply give account for the things they have done...Rom 14:12 "So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." 2 Cor 5:10 " For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad. "

Psa 145:9 "The LORD [is] good to all: and his tender mercies [are] over all his works." This verse contradicts what you are saying.


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

As to Rom 9:22-23;

"[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

The verb 'fitted' can be middle voice meaning the the Jews fitted themselves to destruction.

1 Thess 2:15-16 " Who (Jews) both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost."

So the Jews of their own choice chose to commit all those sins and therefore brought wrath upon themselves. So the middle voice is what contextually fits Rom 9:23.

Also the verse says God "endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

The purpose of God's longsuffering is salvation, 2 Pet 3:15. Why then would God be longsuffering towards these Jews to be saved if God already predetermined they would be lost? That would make no sense. And if these Jews were supposedly predetemined by God to be lost before the world began and nothing can change what God has predetermined, why would Paul in Rom 10:1-3 say these Jews could still be saved if they would just "submit unto the righteousness of God"?


Lastly, Eze 33:11 "Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? "

God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but the wicked turn/repent and live. So the idea that God predetemines some to be wicked and lost goes completely against His nature.

 

[heymikey80]

If the obedience is "not work, but believe" ...

Belief is an obedient work not a work of merit.

Not according to Paul. To Paul it's "not work" to believe.

Not any more a problem with Calvinism as with any other nonheretical Christian view.

God not lying but keeping His promises to save the obedient and have vengeacne upon those that obey not is biblical. Putting culpability on God for the lost is unbiblical.

Did God make men?
Did God make men with a will?
Could God have made men with a better will, one more resistant to sin?

It's clear God has the same responsibility whether a person's human will is free or predestined. God could've kept men from falling by creating them differently. He didn't. They fell.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Grazer,

Yes, there is a general call to all, but a limited effectual call. Many are called, but few are chosen. And Christ died for the sheep, not everyone (John 10:15). Regardless of what you believe about predestination it doesn't make any sense to believe Christ suffered the punishment for sins that will be punished again by God upon sinners in hell.

Again, I would recommend spending time with God wresting with this topic. Spend time in God's Word.

God bless,
Brian

People will not be punished for their sins that Jesus paid the price for!! They will go to hell because they reject Jesus the Redeemer. You must accept Him to be saved therefore no acceptence, no salvation.

 

[heymikey80]

People will not be punished for their sins that Jesus paid the price for!! They will go to hell because they reject Jesus the Redeemer. You must accept Him to be saved therefore no acceptence, no salvation.

That particular explanation has interested me in the past.

Jesus said, "10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." Lk 12:10

Jesus also said, "‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”" Mt 25:45-46

There seems to be more to it than that.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Not according to Paul. To Paul it's "not work" to believe.

Did God make men?
Did God make men with a will?
Could God have made men with a better will, one more resistant to sin?

It's clear God has the same responsibility whether a person's human will is free or predestined. God could've kept men from falling by creating them differently. He didn't. They fell.

Nowhere did Paul or any other NT writer say belief was not a work. But they say just the opposite that beief is a work, Jn 6:27-19 1 Thess 1:3 Gal 5:6 etc.

Did God make men? Yes
Did God make men with a will? Yes
Could God have made men with a better will, one more resistant to sin? Hypothetical question. God simply gave man the ability to choose to do well or not do well, Gen 4:7

If God forced man to be lost against his own will is completely different than God allowing man to choose of his own will to be saved or not. Nite and day difference.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

People will not be punished for their sins that Jesus paid the price for!! They will go to hell because they reject Jesus the Redeemer. You must accept Him to be saved therefore no acceptence, no salvation.

I agree. They of their own free will choosing reject Jesus and they do not reject Jesus because God made them to be reprobates thereby making it impossible for them to accept Christ.