My quest continues...

[mondar]

Dan, you have faith in the inherent goodness of man? How so?

I know what your point is. The inherent goodness of man comes from God, and is indicative of God's reality.
I think it is a product of eons of social interaction, and that man has learned to some degree what it takes to survive amongst his fellows. Do unto others...CYA...what goes around, comes around. And it feels good, too...I believe all learned responses, as the animal Man evolved to his present state.
I won't discount a higher influence, no way, because I don't know.
If God touched your life in some inexplicable and fundamental way, why won't He do the same to me?

Dan, I do not doubt mothers love and nurture their children, fathers would die defending their loved ones and families. I am not suggesting that there is nothing left of the image of God in man, but I think it has been marred by sin.

SIN NATURE----Now if you briefly search my nick and the threads I have been involved in, you will see many diverse and extremely different points of view on the nature of man. I see man as in rebellion against God. When Adam ate of the fruit, he joined a moral rebellion against God which in essence said that God does not have the right to tell us what is right and wrong. Remember the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil?" We have that knowledge, but we have set our own moral standard apart from God and are rebels to Gods standard. We do this by nature. It is our nature to rebel. I say this because I view man as in rebellion against his creator. By nature we find fault with God, and adjust our idea of God and man to suit our own moral code.

So then, we not only do bad things, but we are bad. In fact we do bad things because we are evil by nature. Sin is not when we make a boo boo, but it is acts of rebellion against God. Why do terrorists do their thing? Why are the nations armed with nuclear bombs ready to blow the world up 5 times over? Why do we hear of modern pirates in the waters off Africa? Why do we have crime, drugs, prisons, and our many social problems? Sin. We are still evil. We justify our own moral standard to make our own behavior right. We call wrong right.

Did you ever tell a little lie? In your mind you justified it as not being that bad? That justification of sin is sin nature.

You speak of looking for God to touch our lives in some mysterious and inexplicable way. I have had no such experience and do not seek any such experience. You seem to think that this special experience is the essence of Christianity. For me it is not. The Gospel is enough for me. I am convinced of mans nature being evil. We are rebels against God, and this means we have a need for justification before God the divine judge. This justification comes only through faith in the atoning and shed blood of Jesus Christ. We call it salvation. We call it the Gospel. Christianity begins with this Gospel. The Gospel begins with the rebellious nature of man and a perfect, holy, and righteous God. God has not touched my "life in some inexplicable and fundamental way." But he has given me the gospel. It is sufficient.

 

[LaCrum]

The sun shines, the stars twinkle, the grass grows, and my mother loves me...all of this I know without reservation. I just don't know why all of this has come to pass.
I don't know how to come by the kind of faith you confess to. Surely all of this that we know as our lives and what surrounds us and makes us what we are has come from something, but that something is fundamentally inexplicable and enigmatic to me. I just cannot wholeheartedly accept an unconditional faith in something that has an incongruency to that which seems natural to me.
Do you know what I mean? No?
I don't blame you...I'm not sure I do, either.
Dan

I think I understand what you’re saying, you have faith in the things which you can experience and recognize with your five different senses.

Christian faith is not much different, although the experience and recognition happens on a deeper level than sight, smell, taste, touch, or hearing.

Often non-Christians call our faith blind. Let me tell you, there is nothing blind about. I want to say that we can feel the difference with God in our lives, but “feel†is too weak of word. We see the change in our lifes, we undergo a softening our hearts, we are aware of how we’re slowly being transformed into the image of Christ. In other words, we don’t “feel itâ€, we know it, just as surely as you see the stars in the sky or the grass growing. We know that we know, we’re confident in our confidence.

 

[seekandlisten]

We know that we know, we’re confident in our confidence.

I realize this is only one small part of what you said so don't think I taking it out of context as I understand what you are getting at, I just want to make a small point. We must be careful in our being 'confident in our confidence' so to speak that we don't forget to 'listen'. I think of this in regards to this point:

"You should examine yourself daily. If you find faults, you should correct them. When you find none, you should try even harder."
Xi Zhi

cheers

 

[TanNinety]

How do you resolve the contradictions between the Bible and science and maintain your faith in the Bible as the written Word of God?

It would be simple if you can - not go to the bible for your science and not go to science for your spirituality. You can use one to understand the other better. Like Drew pointed out earlier with the BigBang. A steady state theory of universe was very popular i.e., our universe always existed and will continue to do so. This contradicts the very first verse of the bible 'in the begining'. True, only one can be right. Eventually steady state theory was falsified and evidence showed that our universe in fact had a beginning. Problem solved. Now, here's the other side of the coin, since you are ok with science being adjusted according to the evidence, are you willing to be ok with religion/faith being adjusted according to evidence? If evidence shows that Earth wasn't around for just 6000 years but millions of years, are ok with adjusting your faith in Genesis 1 to read the interpretation of days as not days per humans but days from the point of view of God? Relativity shows us that space and time are after all relative.

Why is faith in God so hard for me to come to terms with?

Because you seek the same empirical evidence of God just as you would of any scientific theory. I’m not saying that’s wrong but perhaps you should change your approach since empirical evidence is only a subset of evidence. What other evidence is there for God you ask? Personal reasoning. This is very subjective, based on who you ask you get different answers on why they believe God exists. None of them might satisfy you because it is not Your personal reasoning. So the only one who can answer that questions satisfactorily is You.

You might have a million questions but they ALL boil down to one fundamental question in your heart. For some it is what is consciousness, or what is existence, or what caused the bigbang. If you are able to answer that fundamental question in your heart without the use of God, then you will be agnostic for a while or for the rest of your life. If you include God in that answer, then you need to form the rest of your worldview through that axiom that is true to you. So first figure out what that one fundamental question is for you. Then try to answer it for yourself.

I just cannot wholeheartedly accept an unconditional faith in something that has an incongruency to that which seems natural to me.

Good that you cannot accept unconditional faith. You should be able to test your beliefs against new information. Just remember that seeming natural is not the litmus test for truth. If that were so, electrons will either have to be waves or just particles but not both.

 

[Denghis]

So then, we not only do bad things, but we are bad. In fact we do bad things because we are evil by nature. Sin is not when we make a boo boo, but it is acts of rebellion against God. Why do terrorists do their thing? Why are the nations armed with nuclear bombs ready to blow the world up 5 times over? Why do we hear of modern pirates in the waters off Africa? Why do we have crime, drugs, prisons, and our many social problems? Sin. We are still evil. We justify our own moral standard to make our own behavior right. We call wrong right.

I take exception to this line of reasoning.

If you have a hundred people in a room, unknown to each other, of different creeds and cultures and spiritualities, how many sociopaths would you have?
It has been my experience that more people, regardless of their political, ideological, or theological persuasion, are inherently good in nature than those who are not.
You are lumping six and a half billion people together with the very small percentage of those who might perpetrate injustice upon others.

This is an issue that really bothers me...the persistent guilt and self-loathing that some people of faith have for themselves and for mankind in general.
You are not bad because you are human, and you are not human because you are bad.

The terrorists you speak of are people, who, in the name of what they believe, create horror, shock, panic, and fear amongst others so that they might weaken and undermine their social structures, thus allowing them to subvert the masses for their own purposes. This has been done consistently down through the ages by that small minority of people who would strive to submit whole populations to their perceptions of what is right and proper and how it may serve themselves most beneficially. I see organized religion to be historically one of the foremost advocates of this kind of mass subjugation of peoples.
There has been, in the past, ruthless and brutal treatment of people in the names of all manner of theology.
I also see a contradiction in Christianity in that Jesus preaches love, benevolence, understanding, and forgiveness, but God, the Father, is almighty in His retribution and will give no quarter to those who transgress in their congress with Him.
This is, to me, a personally perceived incongruity that I have difficulty comprehending.

I don’t mean this to be an indictment of Christianity, but you are, in that one quoted paragraph, attempting to terrorize me, as surely as the Taliban are terrorizing their Afghani brethren.

 

[TheUnworthyServant]

Do the current scientific perceptions concerning the origins of the universe have any status in the theological community?
This is not an arbitrary question. I need to know more about how theology resolves the reservations I have about the disparities between science and religion.
Please bear with me, I am not trying to be subjective or disingenuous...
Dan

Hi Dan
This may help you: http://www.theunworthyservant.com/creation-vs-evolution.html

God Bless

 

[Denghis]

By nature we find fault with God, and adjust our idea of God and man to suit our own moral code.

Mondar, I owe you an apology for the the unfair things I said in my last post. I drink a bit, and when I do I sometimes find myself saying things that I shouldn't.
I stand by the general gist of my post, but without the unnecessory rancor.
I really do love my fellow man, even without God's direction.
Dan

 

[Denghis]

Now, here's the other side of the coin, since you are ok with science being adjusted according to the evidence, are you willing to be ok with religion/faith being adjusted according to evidence? If evidence shows that Earth wasn't around for just 6000 years but millions of years, are ok with adjusting your faith in Genesis 1 to read the interpretation of days as not days per humans but days from the point of view of God? Relativity shows us that space and time are after all relative.

Yes, this is good. I can understand this reasoning and it helps me get past some of the objections I have had with what I percieve and what I have been taught.
With these ideas I can try to move on towards some sort of understanding.
Thank you for your insight and intuition...
Dan

 

[chestertonrules]

There are no disparities.

Theology can't answer all questions explicitly, science can't answer all questions philosophically.

God said let there be light, then there was a big bang.

Man was created from the primordial clay, and THEN God breathed life into him.

 

[TheUnworthyServant]

There are no disparities.

Theology can't answer all questions explicitly, science can't answer all questions philosophically.

God said let there be light, then there was a big bang.

Man was created from the primordial clay, and THEN God breathed life into him.

With all due respect. You are making a mockery of Gods Holy WORD. I advise caution.

 

[chestertonrules]

There are no disparities.

Theology can't answer all questions explicitly, science can't answer all questions philosophically.

God said let there be light, then there was a big bang.

Man was created from the primordial clay, and THEN God breathed life into him.

With all due respect. You are making a mockery of Gods Holy WORD. I advise caution.

That's quite an insult.

Care to elaborate?

With all due respect, are you God?

 

[glorydaz]

There are no disparities.

Theology can't answer all questions explicitly, science can't answer all questions philosophically.

God said let there be light, then there was a big bang.

Man was created from the primordial clay, and THEN God breathed life into him.

With all due respect. You are making a mockery of Gods Holy WORD. I advise caution.

That's quite an insult.

Care to elaborate?

With all due respect, are you God?

Hmmm..that reminds me....didn't you write this to me on another thread?
You never replied when I asked you about it.
Would you care to elaborate?
Perhaps you didn't mean it the way it sounded.

You will be judged for your actions. God is offering his grace to you. Use it to please him and follow his will.

Don't say you haven't been warned:

 

[Denghis]

Gee whiz...
After four-thousand-years we cannot yet agree on a singular approach to a faith that is supposed to govern our earthly existence and lead us to everlasting glory.
No wonder I am uncertain...

 

[veteran]

As a kid we were church-going Presbyterians, and what steered me away from God was the church itself. I am not easily swayed by what I see or read in the media. My mother taught us to weigh the evidence and make our own decisions. I saw people who were Godly only on Sundays, and came to the conclusion that being a Christian was only a part-time endeavor. I don't do part-time anything well.

I once had that same attitude about the Church I was raised in, and because of it I didn't actually come to Christ fully and get baptized until I was 40. After looking just about everywhere else for the truth after I was 18 and on my own, God's glorious Light finally struck me at 40.

We can't depend on flesh man for perfect examples of righteousness, but only on Christ Jesus. That's why Apostle Paul said all born flesh have been concluded under sin so that Salvation could be through Faith on The Saviour Jesus Christ Who was without sin. Even Isaiah says we all are as filthy rags to God. And yet, even though we well know none we know in this life is perfect, we can see God working in the lives of those who have Faith, if we actually take time to notice. Even after coming to Christ Jesus, we still aren't going to be perfect in this life, but we are still to try, even though we will always fall short. A true believer will always realize they fall short, to know their sin, and understand they need The Saviour. It's a religious hypocrite that pumps theirself up as righteous in their own eyes wanting other brethren to see them as such.

Thus flesh man is not perfect and falls short. While we can see that with ourselvs too, and with others, does that mean there is no God? Have you noticed there's nothing in this life that is in a state of perfection, not even the earth?

I'm also a person with enough of a background in science to know some of the battles between mainstream theologists and evolutionists include falsehood on both sides, both can get wrapped up in political agendas instead of looking for the Truth. God's Word actually shows this earth is very ancient, like the fossil record also shows. Yet that has nothing to do with theories of evolution. That's something that can only be understood by Faith in God through His Word. And why should He show such things to those who doubt Him and His Word anyway? Or why should He reveal such things to those who 'play' religion to pump theirselves up in appearance to others? God will allow us to deceive ourselves, if we so choose. Or we can in honesty and sincereness seek Him, get into His Word to know the Truth, and through His Son be set free from the confusion and babblings of men. It's a choice each must make.

 

[chestertonrules]

[

You will be judged for your actions. God is offering his grace to you. Use it to please him and follow his will.

Don't say you haven't been warned

The bible is full of explcit warnings about the consequences of disobedience.

We have been warned that our actions matter, but your post seemed to indicate that our actions are irrelevant to salvation.

Did I misunderstand your post?

 

[glorydaz]

[

You will be judged for your actions. God is offering his grace to you. Use it to please him and follow his will.

Don't say you haven't been warned

The bible is full of explcit warnings about the consequences of disobedience.

We have been warned that our actions matter, but your post seemed to indicate that our actions are irrelevant to salvation.

Did I misunderstand your post?

Possibly....I do believe our actions matter. If we're born again, though, our salvation is not at stake. We'll be chastened of the Lord here on earth, and our rewards in heaven will be affected, but when we're washed in the blood of the Lamb, we're written in His book of life.

I don't advise anyone to be disobedient....the Lord is faithful to chasten us sorely.
He is the perfect father and will not yield to our crying until the lesson is learned.
But He will never forsake His own.

 

[chestertonrules]

[
Possibly....I do believe our actions matter. If we're born again, though, our salvation is not at stake. We'll be chastened of the Lord here on earth, and our rewards in heaven will be affected, but when we're washed in the blood of the Lamb, we're written in His book of life.

I don't advise anyone to be disobedient....the Lord is faithful to chasten us sorely.
He is the perfect father and will not yield to our crying until the lesson is learned.
But He will never forsake His own.

I meant that our actions impact our salvation.

I think scripture is quite explicit that salvation is a process and not an event.

We can know, love, and follow Jesus for a time but then drift away. We must persevere to be saved.

We need God's grace to help us in our quest. Our burden may be light with his help, but it is still a burden.

 

[glorydaz]

[
Possibly....I do believe our actions matter. If we're born again, though, our salvation is not at stake. We'll be chastened of the Lord here on earth, and our rewards in heaven will be affected, but when we're washed in the blood of the Lamb, we're written in His book of life.

I don't advise anyone to be disobedient....the Lord is faithful to chasten us sorely.
He is the perfect father and will not yield to our crying until the lesson is learned.
But He will never forsake His own.

I meant that our actions impact our salvation.

I think scripture is quite explicit that salvation is a process and not an event.

We can know, love, and follow Jesus for a time but then drift away. We must persevere to be saved.

We need God's grace to help us in our quest. Our burden may be light with his help, but it is still a burden.

We must press on so that our works are not burned up, and our crowns will be many, but we will not lose our salvation once we've been born again. We enter into eternal life upon salvation. It's the Lord that does the keeping...it's the Spirit that seals us and leads us into righteousness. If we fall into a pit the good shepherd is faithful to pull us out. Our body may be buffeted, our testimony may be shot, our power may be gone, our lives may be in shambles, but our salvation....never.

It's the Father's will that the Son will lose none He has been given.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

We may lose our reward, but not our salvation.

Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

 

[Vic C.]

I think scripture is quite explicit that salvation is a process and not an event.

Just to open up the dialog a bit, I believe scripture teaches us salvation is both an event and a process. We are dealing with both justification and sanctification. :yes

 

[chestertonrules]

I think scripture is quite explicit that salvation is a process and not an event.

Just to open up the dialog a bit, I believe scripture teaches us salvation is both an event and a process. We are dealing with both justification and sanctification. :yes

I agree to the extent that baptism starts the process.

However, most who hold this view believe that justification occurs as an event and that sanctification is a process.

I don't think that is consistent with James 2:24:

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.