My quest continues...

[Denghis]

If you told me there was an oak tree on the hill behind my house, but I couldn’t see it, or touch it, or smell it, or sit in its shade, should I believe that it does truly stand where you say it does? If you and a hundred others wrote a book with many passages describing the reality of this oak tree, should I then believe that it is there? If, in your book, you say that the oak tree can only be seen by you, and you alone, but that it does exist and to spread the word that it is there even though it can’t be seen, can that, should that, make it real to me?
Will my unquestioned faith in the existence of the oak tree afford me solace and relief from the heat of the mid-day sun?

 

[RichardBurger]

God is a Spirit and is not confined to this physical/material world. Scientists deal with a physical/material reality. They cannot make something out of nothing, but God did.

All this controversy about creationism and evolution is ridicules.

 

[mamre]

If you told me there was an oak tree on the hill behind my house, but I couldn’t see it, or touch it, or smell it, or sit in its shade, should I believe that it does truly stand where you say it does? If you and a hundred others wrote a book with many passages describing the reality of this oak tree, should I then believe that it is there? If, in your book, you say that the oak tree can only be seen by you, and you alone, but that it does exist and to spread the word that it is there even though it can’t be seen, can that, should that, make it real to me?
Will my unquestioned faith in the existence of the oak tree afford me solace and relief from the heat of the mid-day sun?

Hi Denghis,

You've touched, possibly, on the fundamental point of the discussion. In other words, belief is not the same as faith, and faith is not the same as knowledge. So, it doesn't matter the fervor of one's belief; if the thing or things the person believes are not true, that fervor doesn't make them true. That is a reality, it is the pure truth. A belief doesn't make the object of that belief true. Otherwise I could be extremely rich, just for believing that a bunch of sticks is gold. If that concept was true it would be chaos (just look at the zillions of beliefs in the world today). One cannot invent, interpret, or read and believe in it and say it is true. Believing is just the beginning, but the belief needs to be placed on a true thing.

For the sake of discussion, if we can stretch a bit the meanings and compare "theory" to "belief" then we can draw on science to understand the subject a little better. Roughly, the scientific method says that we first observe, then formulate a hypothesis, create a theory based on the observation and initial evidences. Then we work to prove or disprove that theory. So the scientist first observe, then believe, then work on the possible evidences.
So, if you change the words a little then you could say: "First we observe or hear, then we believe, then we make an effort (exert faith) to find out (or confirm) that what we believe is true." Finding the truth is adding knowledge.
So you have, belief - faith - knowledge.

So, would it be fair to say about your quest that you believe in God, and that is probably because you have observed the beauty of nature and, the love and innocence in a child's eyes, the vastness of the universe, and so many other things that hint of His existence; but, you cannot go further than that belief, because there is no concrete proof?

May I submit to you that if you want to have a true knowledge of God you need to apply the scientific method to your quest?

mamre

 

[Denghis]

All this controversy about creationism and evolution is ridicules.

Ridiculous? That would be like saying all those who have had questions over the past few thousand years are foolish and not worth the bother. I know you don’t mean that…
You cannot, in all good faith, put forth an argument without defending that argument.

 

[Denghis]

So, if you change the words a little then you could say: "First we observe or hear, then we believe, then we make an effort (exert faith) to find out (or confirm) that what we believe is true." Finding the truth is adding knowledge.
So you have, belief - faith - knowledge.

I would have to say, “knowledge, belief, faithâ€. First I must know that there is something to recognize as a conceivable truth, then to accept my understanding of that truth, and finally to have faith in that acceptance.

Would it be fair to say about your quest that you believe in God, and that is probably because you have observed the beauty of nature and, the love and innocence in a child's eyes, the vastness of the universe, and so many other things that hint of His existence; but, you cannot go further than that belief, because there is no concrete proof?

An excellent insight, Mamre, very intuitive…but I must say that I don’t require or demand concrete, solid, physical proof of God, per se. I certainly realize that all that we know cannot be explained by science, and I do not expect science to answer questions that I believe may be beyond the scope of human comprehension.
But…I need more than what I have been given to date in order to give myself completely over to the kind of faith you all enjoy.
Regards,
Dan

 

[mamre]

I would have to say, “knowledge, belief, faithâ€. First I must know that there is something to recognize as a conceivable truth, then to accept my understanding of that truth, and finally to have faith in that acceptance.

Dan,

We really don't know at first, it is not a knowledge. Someone informs you of the truth of God's existence. Then you believe it. Rather than initial knowledge, it is a matter of witness. The written word of God is nothing more then witnesses of God's existence and of the Sacrifice of His Son for us. The Bible is a collection of these witnesses. You read the witnesses given by righteous men that lived long ago and you believe it, or not. if you believe, then you need to acquire a witness of it by yourself, otherwise you will be stuck in the believing phase and never coming to the knowledge as those men did. Now, it is up to you to believe in what they are witnessing to you and obtain a witness for yourself, thus coming to the same knowledge those men long ago had.

So, the process is: first you hear of it, then you believe it, then you exercise faith, so you obtain a knowledge.

So, according to your analogy of the oak tree, someone witnessed to you that there was an oak tree behind your house on the hill. That is NOT knowledge for you of the existence of that oak tree. May be it is a knowledge for that person, but not for you.

You ask if your unquestionable faith in its existence would afford any benefit to you. That will depend on the reality of the existence of that tree. If the person that told you that he/she believed there was an oak tree behind your house, didn't know for sure but only believed, then if you exercise faith and the tree doesn't exist you will have a false faith generated by an untrue witnessing. No matter how unquestionably you believe, if the object of the belief is not true you are on you own. Believing only doesn't make something true. What you believe in must be true for you to be able to exercise faith in it and obtain its benefits. Otherwise it is only a belief, and it is a false one at that.

On the other hand, if the tree existed, and you believed in the word of that person, you still would have to go to the tree to derive all those benefits it provides. In other words, by believing only, you will not obtain any benefit from it. Believing only, means also that you don't have a knowledge of it at first, but you believed on someone else word that the tree existed. It is like walking in the dark with someone that have a flash light. You need to have your own light.

Assuming the tree existed, faith could be exercised. You act on your belief and walk to the hill and find the tree. The fact you walked means you exercised faith, as faith is an active concept. Your faith moved you to go to the tree without seen or knowing it really existed. The true witness of that person enabled you to have hope and you acted on the hope the tree existed. That faith brought you to the knowledge of the tree. In other words, ultimately you saw the tree with your own yes and enjoyed its benefits. Now, you become a witness also, as you have knowledge of the tree and of its benefits. You don't just believe.

If, however, you believed in the person but never walked there. Or, in other words, never exercised your faith, you'd have only a belief that there was a tree behind your house that afforded certain benefits. THAT is not knowledge, as you have never seen or experienced the tree. You have a belief, but have not witnessed its existence. Therefore, you cannot enjoy the benefits the tree provides, NOT having a knowledge of it. As you can see, belief only cannot bring you to enjoy the benefits.

In the case of God existence, the situation is basically the same. You read the witnesses of His existence. You believe the witnessing. You act on your belief by going to God in prayer and asking Him in the name of Christ to witness to you of the truth of His existence (going to the tree). You may not see Him as you would see the oak tree (although we have the promise). However, His spirit will talk directly to your spirit (Paul says that "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" Romans 8:16) and you will have an undeniable witness of your own that He exists. With that witness you can say I know God exists because He told me. Or I know (have a true knowledge, not just belief) that the teachings of the Bible are true because I asked God and He witnessed it to my spirit. So you acquire a knowledge. Those that aspire eternal life must obtain that knowledge. See what Jesus said:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3. (emphasis added)

As you can see the definition of life eternal is the KNOWLEDGE of God, meaning, we must exercise our faith to acquire that knowledge. This is true for the simple fact that Jesus also said:

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48.

How can we become perfect like God if we don't KNOW who/how God is? We start that journey with a simple belief, we exercise faith and ask Him to show the way to obtain that knowledge, and little by little we get to know them as Paul said:

"Till we come [to] ... the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" Eph 4:13.

The fullness of Christ is to be perfect like God, as He is perfect like God the Father.

Knowledge is the last in the process, because obtaining the true knowledge of God is the object of our existence. If we say we have it, we are not humble at all.

I know that what I have told above is true. Those are not simply arguments. I have asked God myself, and He has witnessed undeniably to me of His existence and the reality of the atonement of His Son for us. I tell you that I know (not just believe) that God lives and those things are true and you can do the same and obtain that witness on you own if you are sincere and humble. God is our Father and the Father wants us to KNOW the truth.

Have a great day,
mamre

 

[Denghis]

Well, I have a lot to chew over. I have gotten a ton of really good responses from you all and will be busy reading and re-reading.
Thank you all so much for your interest and your help.
I know there is a God, so I can say...God bless you all.
Dan

 

[mamre]

Well, I have a lot to chew over. I have gotten a ton of really good responses from you all and will be busy reading and re-reading.
Thank you all so much for your interest and your help.
I know there is a God, so I can say...God bless you all.
Dan

Hi Dan,

My only objective was to help you to come unto Christ, keeping in mind that no one can convert anyone. Only the Holy Spirit of God can do that by the means I have tried to explain in the last post. I can witness of what I know, which is I know that God lives and that Christ is truly our Savior and friend. However, at the end of the day, that is completely up to you to go to Him and ask in faith. Every person need to have their own "lamp," we cannot walk with borrowed light for long. And the only source of light is our Father which is in heaven.

I hope I could help a little in your quest. That is not only a noble quest, but a critical one as your eternal life depends on your findings. Feel free to contact if you think I can be of any assistance in your quest.

Have a great day.

mamre

 

[MarkT]

To me, I could care less. No one alive now was alive 6,000 years ago, nor were they alive billions of years ago, the point being, no one saw the creation of the universe. Who says that God didn't set it up for scientists to make contrary discoveries about the origin of the universe just to test Christians faith? Contrary to popular opinion, there has never been a fossil found of a transitional animal. It's all a matter of faith, brother.

Where did your faith come from? Was it epiphany? Was it taught? Was it ingrained in your upbringing?
I have faith in many things. I have faith in the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the greenness of growing grass, the coming of springtime and its blush of new life on the land. I have faith in death, and taxes, and the inherent goodness of man.
Why is faith in God so hard for me to come to terms with?

Unless the sun and the moon and the stars can talk, you would not say you have faith in them. We have faith in the promises of God. God sent us his Son so that we might know He exists through Him. If you believe in His Son, then you have to believe God exists. It is written, 'my sheep know me.' That's the truth.

 

[MarkT]

So then, we not only do bad things, but we are bad. In fact we do bad things because we are evil by nature. Sin is not when we make a boo boo, but it is acts of rebellion against God. Why do terrorists do their thing? Why are the nations armed with nuclear bombs ready to blow the world up 5 times over? Why do we hear of modern pirates in the waters off Africa? Why do we have crime, drugs, prisons, and our many social problems? Sin. We are still evil. We justify our own moral standard to make our own behavior right. We call wrong right.

I take exception to this line of reasoning.

If you have a hundred people in a room, unknown to each other, of different creeds and cultures and spiritualities, how many sociopaths would you have?
It has been my experience that more people, regardless of their political, ideological, or theological persuasion, are inherently good in nature than those who are not.
You are lumping six and a half billion people together with the very small percentage of those who might perpetrate injustice upon others.

This is an issue that really bothers me...the persistent guilt and self-loathing that some people of faith have for themselves and for mankind in general.
You are not bad because you are human, and you are not human because you are bad.

The terrorists you speak of are people, who, in the name of what they believe, create horror, shock, panic, and fear amongst others so that they might weaken and undermine their social structures, thus allowing them to subvert the masses for their own purposes. This has been done consistently down through the ages by that small minority of people who would strive to submit whole populations to their perceptions of what is right and proper and how it may serve themselves most beneficially. I see organized religion to be historically one of the foremost advocates of this kind of mass subjugation of peoples.
There has been, in the past, ruthless and brutal treatment of people in the names of all manner of theology.
I also see a contradiction in Christianity in that Jesus preaches love, benevolence, understanding, and forgiveness, but God, the Father, is almighty in His retribution and will give no quarter to those who transgress in their congress with Him.
This is, to me, a personally perceived incongruity that I have difficulty comprehending.

I don’t mean this to be an indictment of Christianity, but you are, in that one quoted paragraph, attempting to terrorize me, as surely as the Taliban are terrorizing their Afghani brethren.

It's a relative thing. We are evil because God is good. God alone is good. That makes us relatively evil. Even Jesus wouldn't allow he was good compared to God. It is written, 'If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!'

 

[MarkT]

If you told me there was an oak tree on the hill behind my house, but I couldn’t see it, or touch it, or smell it, or sit in its shade, should I believe that it does truly stand where you say it does? If you and a hundred others wrote a book with many passages describing the reality of this oak tree, should I then believe that it is there? If, in your book, you say that the oak tree can only be seen by you, and you alone, but that it does exist and to spread the word that it is there even though it can’t be seen, can that, should that, make it real to me?
Will my unquestioned faith in the existence of the oak tree afford me solace and relief from the heat of the mid-day sun?

If the oak tree could only speak.

Haven't you heard? Words came out of Jesus' mouth. Actual words. The apostles saw him. They spoke to him. He spoke to them. If you saw the Word of God manifest in the flesh, and you heard Him speak, teach, etc., then you would not need proof. You would need understanding. And, assuming you are poor in spirit, you might believe.