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My Right To Die

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3468.htm

http://biblehub.net/searchstrongs.php?q=salvation

I can not find an instance in the Greek where that is the meaning. Could you direct me to the passage? That is interesting to me and I never heard it although it does make sense.

Sorry about that Brother, I sort of threw "Salvation" in there on a last moment thought thing.

Salvation and saved do not mean eternal life, born again, or anything like that in how we use them today. Aionios Zoe would be the correct Greek for Eternal life.

Does Salvation and Saved mean Eternal life and born again? Yes, and no. The literal Greek NO, in context some places yes. It's important to understand what the Holy Spirit is saying to us in context. Context is so important as opposed to the exact meaning of the Word.

The STrongs Word study is a Greek study. The other part of Strongs and Thayer are just definitions where the author attempted to explain words in the way they understood the context of how they were used.

In other words, Strongs and Thayer are definitions that relate to the authors understanding, not an actual Greek and Hebrew study. Makes it frustrating, but it's the way it is.

So, a Greek word like Theos (God) which means a deity or being that is immortal, has a different meaning depending on the definition the person gives it.

Thayer: Theos

2) the Godhead, trinity
2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity

Strongs: Theos
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

You can see that one mans believes in Trinity, so his definition of Theos is different For Joseph Henery (Thayer) that it is for James Strong (Strongs) Both men are Methodist, but James Strong did not believe in the Trinity.

The Actual Greek just means a immortal being of uncertain origin or affinity (Needs defined in the Greek Article)

Jesus introduced Eternal life and life in Him. So when read by those back in the day, the Words Salvation and Saved covered a whole lot more in their minds than it does today. They knew about the law of sin and death, the curse for sin which was sickness, poverty, early death. Jesus came to give life over the one that came to steal, Kill and destroy, so it was understood to them that being the seed of Abraham, they had a covenant with God that protected them from dying early, getting sickness, and living in poverty. So when Saved or Salvation is used, it means a bit more than just being born again. Both Words cover the physical now and eternal later.

Jesus introduced eternal life in Him, so the Holy Spirit did not have a Greek Word for that, that everyone would understand and at the same time denote all Jesus did.

Thayer included all the Word meant by definition and how it was used in scriptures.


Thayer Definition: Salvation Soteria
1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
1a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies
1b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation
1b1) of Messianic salvation
2) salvation as the present possession of all true Christians
3) future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.

Strongs just gave more of the Exact Greek Meaning: However James included the Morally part to denote both.

Feminine of a derivative of G4990 as (properly abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally): - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

Saved: Sozo
Thayer Definition:
1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
1a) one (from injury or peril)
1a1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health

Strongs:
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, “safe”); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.


When Peter was asked by what authority He used to make a man whole at Gate beautiful, He told them how that man was healed.

If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
(Act 4:9-12)

Peter said there is no other name under Heaven by which men can be healed, made whole, put in safety and protected. It was faith in the name of Jesus that healed this man, the same man you rejected and all his promises.

And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
(Act 3:16)

Saved used as being born again sense:


Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1Pe 3:20)

And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
(Jud 1:23)

Here it's used in a physical sense for Earth.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
(Php 2:12-13)

Staying in the will of God keeps us safe and obeying him while here on Earth. We are to work out that will and plan for ourselves and in it are safety and protection. Our work must be according to the will and plan of God.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

So to stay in the will of God and protected, we work out our own Soteria doing the plan of God for our life in careful planing and thought.

Blessings.
 
Each month I hear from a few people who are seriously questioning why God would want them to remain here on earth one more day. And for each person that contacts me, I wonder how many others are suffering silently. What good could possibly come of constant pain? How can He expect us to continue to endure a future that seems to hold nothing but disappointments, sorrow and physical pain? We search for an answer: Why is God allowing this to happen and why shouldn't those with chronic illness just end it all and experience heaven a bit early?
http://www.restministries.org/articles/art-speedupheaven.htm
 
You might notice that it is a general precept that ties into Godly thought, but is not an absolute rule. Daniel sure didn't ALWAYS obey authority.

So what? So I should kill a guy to take his wife or curse some kids to have bears kill them? What is the point of this statement?
 
Each month I hear from a few people who are seriously questioning why God would want them to remain here on earth one more day. And for each person that contacts me, I wonder how many others are suffering silently. What good could possibly come of constant pain? How can He expect us to continue to endure a future that seems to hold nothing but disappointments, sorrow and physical pain? We search for an answer: Why is God allowing this to happen and why shouldn't those with chronic illness just end it all and experience heaven a bit early?
http://www.restministries.org/articles/art-speedupheaven.htm
I want a opinion on this above post or quote
 
So what? So I should kill a guy to take his wife or curse some kids to have bears kill them? What is the point of this statement?

Exactly!! What does killing someone for a woman and cursing kids to death have to do with the right to die?
shrug2.gif

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Each month I hear from a few people who are seriously questioning why God would want them to remain here on earth one more day. And for each person that contacts me, I wonder how many others are suffering silently. What good could possibly come of constant pain? How can He expect us to continue to endure a future that seems to hold nothing but disappointments, sorrow and physical pain? We search for an answer: Why is God allowing this to happen and why shouldn't those with chronic illness just end it all and experience heaven a bit early?
I want a opinion on this above post or quote

I think if people took their eyes off of themselves they would be surprised to learn that God is willing to alleviate their suffering.

.
 
Each month I hear from a few people who are seriously questioning why God would want them to remain here on earth one more day. And for each person that contacts me, I wonder how many others are suffering silently. What good could possibly come of constant pain? How can He expect us to continue to endure a future that seems to hold nothing but disappointments, sorrow and physical pain? We search for an answer: Why is God allowing this to happen and why shouldn't those with chronic illness just end it all and experience heaven a bit early?
http://www.restministries.org/articles/art-speedupheaven.htm

Why is God allowing folks to suffer?
God is allowing as in God could stop it if He felt like it?

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
(Jas 4:17)

Is God a sinner?

God promise a future of disappointments?


If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.
(Job 36:11)


And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
(Rom 5:3-5)

We suppose to be suffering or we suppose to glory in tribulation knowing that whom we hope in, will not make us ashamed.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
(Rom 8:35-37)

You speak as Job's friends, foolishness.

You search for answers and I gave them to you. It's called faith.


God is never the problem. We are always the problem, and the Word tries us, we don't try the Word and figure it don't work.

Joseph having the promise through a dream held on, kept an excellent spirit despite what happened to him, the Word of the Lord tried him, and Joseph ends up rich, and a blessing.

I suppose the day Paul was shipwrecked, then shortly after a venomous snake latched on to his hand should have just given up. Paul should have said to God he had enough. Told the Lord he got stoned last week, then beat up, and thrown in jail, now his ship is crashed and a snake bit him.

What Paul say........

And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
(2Ti 4:18)

The Lord shall what? deliver from just a few evil works? Some evil works when the Lord gets around to it? All of them!!!!!

Why does God "Allow"

Who is god of this world anyway? We are not even on our home turf here.

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
(Joh 10:10)

Satan wants to take away quality of life, then convince us God cares less to do anything about it. It's a lie, and we ought to be smarter than this. There is a reason they get offended by the Word, having endured for a bit until Satan turns up the heart and they get offended. It's God they get offended at, because God should do something.

He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
(Psa 107:20)

That is something to shout about, He already sent his word concerning healing. What more do we need?
OH, yea, we need God to put up with unbelief, then put up with disobedience, and put up with feeling sorry for ourselves and help us despite what He said about those things. Forget that standing up and believe what God said part. That is to much to ask.

All the Centurion needed was Jesus to speak the Word only, and my servant SHALL be healed. That got the Lord's attention, and the Centurion mentioned in the book. Just speak the word, and it's a done deal.

Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
(1Pe 5:7-9)

This scripture tell us to roll over and give up? To do so would be disobedience to the Written Word, and a shame to us. The same cancers, same troubles, same persecutions are going on in other brothers and sisters in the Lord. The same instruction to them all is to resist the devil by Faith. Works for one, it works for all.

What happens if you don't resist? Pray over and over and over and over because you don't believe God heard the first time?

then what happens to you.
 
Brother Mike,

We should not forget that unless we are translated, we WILL die. By prosper, deliver, etc etc

He is talking about Salvation. Many of the good will receive what is bad in this life. Many of the bad will receive what is good.

BTW, your post about the translation of one of the instances of the word Salvation in the Greek was interesting.
 
I should add that while I do have faith and I do fear the Lord:

I can imagine pain that would be unbearable. Unless He strengthened me during a time of that type of pain, I wouldn't be able to take it.

But, I am weak
 
I should add that while I do have faith and I do fear the Lord:

I can imagine pain that would be unbearable. Unless He strengthened me during a time of that type of pain, I wouldn't be able to take it.

But, I am weak

Well that is right, unless he strengthened you, your in trouble. Through the years I have learned a few things. Under the grace and power of God, things that make others fall apart, seem like a walk in the park.

If your following God, full of faith in the Word, doing the will of God, there is not much that can happen that will move you. In fact, things can be going horribly wrong, but to you it seems like everything is OK.

I can give many examples, but going back to my son having that terminal cancer when He was 8 years old, I had all kinds of folks telling me how bad they felt for me, and I must be going through a rough time...... I should have been, but It was not bad, and I told them the devil is going through a rough time, not me.

Even after thanking God for his word, and promises, I get that phone call, and they tell me my son will not live till morning? Well, the Doctor is right and the Lord fails at times, or the Doctor is wrong, looking at his physical evidence. I was not bothered at all by that call, I just thanked God His word never fails despite seeing ZERO evidence my son was going to be OK. My son is 23 now, doing fine.

If you stick close to the Lord, it's not as bad as what others think your going through. Hard to explain, but when Jesus said my peace I give you, he meant it.

You may be weak, but that's a better attitude than thinking you can handle it. Paul thought that way once, and the devil kicked the slats from under him. Paul learned real quick, he was a quick learner.

So yes, there is bad things that go on. Thing is, these bad things happen to everyone, not just us believers. Now if you read those crime stories, see the root of where the devil had an entrance to kill. Notice the lack of believers who trust God in those stories? Why? Because the devil can't get to us, like He does those without Jesus, that is why.

Like a lion, who has to seek someone to devour. He seeks because not everyone is edible.

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(Eph 2:12)

We don't want to let the devil rob us of the plan of God. We are here for a reason, and have great promises. Lets get done all we have to do, and get out of here. When trouble comes, then we have God, and if God be for us...... Bless God, nobody can stand against us. Oh they can try, but it don't end well for them. Without God in this World, then it's not good.

Look at this:
And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.
(Gen 29:30-31)
And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister; and said unto Jacob, Give me children, or else I die. And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb?
(Gen 30:1-2)

Now who does the Lord help and stick up for? Leah was not as loved as Rachel, so the Lord helped Leah to the point it made Rachel even more mad. Rachel was so full of envy that she got mad at Jacob.

Man, persecute me more, hate me more. Guess how it's going to end for me.

When we start looking at trouble, sickness, problems in the light of the Word, we start to see how Paul could say glory in tribulations.
Count it all joy, James said.

And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
(Act 20:22-24)

No matter what the devil throws at us, what comes up, no matter how horrible, we can stand and say, "None of these things move Me!!!! I will finish my course with Joy of all the things God called me to do, I will not be taken out early, but be a blessing to many."

That is some shouting ground right there. Glory to God.
 
Well that is right, unless he strengthened you, your in trouble. Through the years I have learned a few things. Under the grace and power of God, things that make others fall apart, seem like a walk in the park.

If your following God, full of faith in the Word, doing the will of God, there is not much that can happen that will move you. In fact, things can be going horribly wrong, but to you it seems like everything is OK.

I can give many examples, but going back to my son having that terminal cancer when He was 8 years old, I had all kinds of folks telling me how bad they felt for me, and I must be going through a rough time...... I should have been, but It was not bad, and I told them the devil is going through a rough time, not me.

Even after thanking God for his word, and promises, I get that phone call, and they tell me my son will not live till morning? Well, the Doctor is right and the Lord fails at times, or the Doctor is wrong, looking at his physical evidence. I was not bothered at all by that call, I just thanked God His word never fails despite seeing ZERO evidence my son was going to be OK. My son is 23 now, doing fine.

If you stick close to the Lord, it's not as bad as what others think your going through. Hard to explain, but when Jesus said my peace I give you, he meant it.

You may be weak, but that's a better attitude than thinking you can handle it. Paul thought that way once, and the devil kicked the slats from under him. Paul learned real quick, he was a quick learner.

So yes, there is bad things that go on. Thing is, these bad things happen to everyone, not just us believers. Now if you read those crime stories, see the root of where the devil had an entrance to kill. Notice the lack of believers who trust God in those stories? Why? Because the devil can't get to us, like He does those without Jesus, that is why.

Like a lion, who has to seek someone to devour. He seeks because not everyone is edible.

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(Eph 2:12)

We don't want to let the devil rob us of the plan of God. We are here for a reason, and have great promises. Lets get done all we have to do, and get out of here. When trouble comes, then we have God, and if God be for us...... Bless God, nobody can stand against us. Oh they can try, but it don't end well for them. Without God in this World, then it's not good.

Look at this:
And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.
(Gen 29:30-31)
And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister; and said unto Jacob, Give me children, or else I die. And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb?
(Gen 30:1-2)

Now who does the Lord help and stick up for? Leah was not as loved as Rachel, so the Lord helped Leah to the point it made Rachel even more mad. Rachel was so full of envy that she got mad at Jacob.

Man, persecute me more, hate me more. Guess how it's going to end for me.

When we start looking at trouble, sickness, problems in the light of the Word, we start to see how Paul could say glory in tribulations.
Count it all joy, James said.

And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
(Act 20:22-24)

No matter what the devil throws at us, what comes up, no matter how horrible, we can stand and say, "None of these things move Me!!!! I will finish my course with Joy of all the things God called me to do, I will not be taken out early, but be a blessing to many."

That is some shouting ground right there. Glory to God.

I know that things that shake others do not shake us. Trust me, I have noticed that to a large extent.

But read the Book of Job. I can't help but feel like I am too weak to withstand that type of affliction. It is only by God's saving grace that I have withstood what I have already been through. Now, if God carried me through it by the power of the Holy Spirit, I would surely overcome it because nothing in this world can stand against God's power (no not even close). But in the mean time, I sure will pray it doesn't happen. That is scary stuff in there. It is right to fear God. I can not help but pray that I am not tested like that, because I know that unless God carries me through it - I will fall every time.

You have encouraged me. Praise God.
 
I know that things that shake others do not shake us. Trust me, I have noticed that to a large extent.

But read the Book of Job. I can't help but feel like I am too weak to withstand that type of affliction. It is only by God's saving grace that I have withstood what I have already been through. Now, if God carried me through it by the power of the Holy Spirit, I would surely overcome it because nothing in this world can stand against God's power (no not even close). But in the mean time, I sure will pray it doesn't happen. That is scary stuff in there. It is right to fear God. I can not help but pray that I am not tested like that, because I know that unless God carries me through it - I will fall every time.

You have encouraged me. Praise God.

Amen, I encourage you to take the book of Job, and ask the Lord to show you what exactly happened. The lie of the enemy is to get us to blame God for something he did, and get us to doubt all the good things the Lord said concerning us. He did that with Eve, tried to do that with Jesus. Prompting Peter to not believe what the Lord said, to withstand on his own strength.

If we can follow what God said, and not have that Job situation come up, then it gives us more confidence to trust and follow God.

If the devil can get us to believe that Job had nothing to do with what happened to him, but it was God who gave permission to the devil to destroy him, then where is our confidence in the Lord?

Now is the Lord going to give us the book of Job, and have it destroy our faith and confidence in him? Or would the Lord give us the book of Job to build our faith in him and show us some laws we should not break like Job did?

God does not tempt man, to ascertain his character and nature through tribulation. James told us that.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
(Jas 1:13)

peirazō Tempteth
Thayer Definition:
1) to try whether a thing can be done
1a) to attempt, endeavour
2) to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself
2a) in a good sense
2b) in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments

God does not use EVIL to tempt any man to see what the man is made of or how he will react. Murder of children is Evil, being made sick is Evil, and loosing all your things and way to support yourself is EVIL. Job lost all his cattle, the means by which Job had wealth, and God had no part of it.

Pray over it, and read the conversation between the devil and God. What did God see before hand?
What did God know beforehand?
What did God mean by saying, "All that Job has is in your power?" Is this a permissive statement or just a statement of fact?
What did the devil mean by telling God Job will Barak (Bless) you to your face. The translators used the word Curse for Barak and it's a Hebrew Word that means to salute back or bless back.

YLT: Youngs Literal Translation
The work of his hands Thou hast blessed, and his substance hath spread in the land, and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath--if not: to Thy face he doth bless Thee!'
(Job 1:11)

The same thing happened to David, He came back with the men and the enemy had taken the wives and kids from Ziklag.

So David and his men came to the city, and, behold, it was burned with fire; and their wives, and their sons, and their daughters, were taken captives.
(1Sa 30:3)

How did David respond, as opposed to Job responding when trouble came? Does how we respond to trouble make a difference?

What did Job say was the cause of the enemy getting a place to destroy him? (Hint, Job chapter 3:25)

Elihu, the youngest and only one that spoke on God's behalf breaks it down for Job, and defends the Lord against Job. God was not happy with Job and his 3 other friends, but Elihu God spoke through.

Elihu:
For he hath said,(Job said it) It profiteth a man nothing that he should delight himself with God. Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity. For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
(Job 34:9-11)

Far be it from God, he send a thief murderer to kill our Children!!!!! Praise God
Far be it from God, He send a thief to destroy our property and take away our wealth
Far be it from God, He send a thief to steal our health.

According to Job's ways, that is what Job had gotten.

Behold, all that He has is in YOUR POWER............. A permission to the Devil, or a Statement of fact?

We have to be careful how religion teaches Paul's thorn, Job, Jacob's hip, and many other things. Mans carnal thinking, thinks wrong of God, when in fact God is our help in time of trouble.

Blessings.
 
Brother, you are correct in some ways (your posts are great encouragement, praise God). But here is the Hebrew for curse:
1288 [e]yə-ḇā-ră-ḵe-kā.יְבָרֲכֶֽךָּ׃he will curse

But God does use the enemy to refine us. The way he does that is by making His grace abound in times of sin. Sin brings death. No matter what the enemy does, God will use it for our good.

Oftentimes in Scripture we will see where someone who's heart has grown hard is handed over to Satan to bring them to repentance. Our world's heats have become so cold that they are *almost* immunized to seeing the constant grace they are receiving from God even as they remain hardheartedly unfaithful.

God does not spare the rod because He loves us, and sometimes the rod He uses is Satan. But how? He doesn't sick Satan on us like a dog. He removes some of His grace that we are all undeserving of in the first place.

God does not test us maliciously. He has tests in store for us that he foreknows will lead us to doing the good works he has prepared for us to do ahead of time. Malicious tests come from Satan, but God is going to use that for our good.

Paul's thorn was a demon. That is clear in Scripture from what I can see. God allowed him to remain afflicted because God's power is made perfect in weakness. That is a good thing to remember in times of trial. God is using it for our good, and we will be re-payed according to what we have done.
 
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Brother, you are correct (your posts are great encouragement, praise God)

But God does use the enemy to refine us. The way he does that is by making His grace abound in times of sin. Sin brings death. No matter what the enemy does, God will use it for our good.

Oftentimes in Scripture we will see where someone who's heart has grown hard is handed over to Satan to bring them to repentance. Our world's heats have become so cold that they are *almost* immunized to seeing the constant grace they are receiving from God even as they remain hardheartedly unfaithful.

God does not spare the rod because He loves us, and sometimes the rod He uses is Satan. But how? He doesn't sick Satan on us like a dog. He removes some of His grace that we are all undeserving of in the first place.

God does not test us maliciously. He has tests in store for us that he foreknows will lead us to doing the good works he has prepared for us to do ahead of time. Malicious tests come from Satan, but God is going to use that for our good.

Paul's thorn was a demon. That is clear in Scripture from what I can see. God allowed him to remain afflicted because God's power is made perfect in weakness. That is a good thing to remember in times of trial. God is using it for our good, and we will be re-payed according to what we have done.

Paul could have shaken off that messenger at any time. The grace and authority was already there. Job broke a very serious law and gave the devil a place. Not God's fault and God never gave the devil permission to get job. People make that up.

Paul turned one over to the devil to kill him. If you are at that point, you have ignored God for a long time. The hope is that they repent before death, that they are not coundemed with the world.

God chastised those he loves. Satan is not involved in any of that. All scripture is for reprove and doctrine. He gave ministry gifts unto men for perfecting the Saints, not the tools of hell to correct us. The word chastise in Greek means to instruct in the word.
 
Brother Mike,

It is only by asking God that we can remove demons.

Job's only sin was that of undue pride, to my knowledge.

I edited my post above because I made an error

1288 [e]yə-ḇā-ră-ḵe-kā.יְבָרֲכֶֽךָּ׃he will curse
That is the Hebrew

199 [e]wə-’ū-lāmוְאוּלָם֙ButAdv
7971 [e]šə-laḥ-שְֽׁלַֽח־put forthVerb
4994 [e]נָ֣אnowInj
3027 [e]yā-ḏə-ḵā,יָֽדְךָ֔your handNoun
5060 [e]wə-ḡa‘וְגַ֖עand touchVerb
3605 [e]bə-ḵālבְּכָל־allNoun
834 [e]’ă-šer-אֲשֶׁר־thatPrt
lōw;ל֑וֹtoPrep
518 [e]’im-אִם־andConj
3808 [e]לֹ֥אnotAdv
5921 [e]‘al-עַל־to youPrep
6440 [e]pā-ne-ḵāפָּנֶ֖יךָfaceNoun
1288 [e]yə-ḇā-ră-ḵe-kā.יְבָרֲכֶֽךָּ׃he will curseVerb
Hebrew Texts
 
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