Nation shall rise against Nation

[JLB]

I realize that cloning is very real, but it's only an assumption, not a fact, that man would make an actual body for Satan to inhabit. Why would he even need a physical body as from the beginning starting with the serpent in the garden up through the four Empires and the last antichrist being the son of perdition Satan has always worked through others as a roaring lion seeking in whom he can devour.

To present himself as God in the flesh; the Christ (antichrist)

 

[Northman]

It has nothing to do with Reformers or man's theology or even any religion, but the full context of scriptures with Biblical history of the four Empires with the last one in the latter days. What I write is of my own studying apart from any man's doctrines or theories teaching me anything.

Except that when you do your own studies, you are looking at what men wrote about history, because most of the things you say about this stuff doesn't come from the bible.

The Roman Empire began in 753BC by Romulus who founded Rome in 27BC with Augustus Caesar becoming the first emperor of Rome in 27 BC and died in 14AD. Rome controlled over two million square miles stretching from the Rhine River to Egypt and from Britain (England) to Asia Minor which made up the Grecian Empire of Greece, Turkey, Syria and Egypt. In 146BC the Romans destroyed Corinth during the Battle of Corinth and made the Greece Empire into a province of the Roman Empire. This timeline goes from 753BC to 27BC. Nero burned Rome in 64AD and blamed the Christian community in the city causing the Roman Empires first persecution of Christians. In 1453 was the rise of the Ottoman Empire that conquered Constantinople destroying the Byzantine Empire (Eastern Roman Empire) that reigned from 330AD to 1453AD. The Roman Empire was then called the Holy Roman Empire that was a political entity beginning in 800AD - 1806AD from the time of Charlemagne (Holy Roman Emperor) who protected Pope Leo III from Adrian's supporters in Rome to Francis II, King of France. Pope Pius VII was the Pope from 1800-1823. The Roman Empire is known today as Vatican City, a city-state surrounded by Rome and Italy who has diplomatic relations with every nation around the world.

This is loaded with reasons why you have such a hard time selling what you are trying to pass off.

Romulus and Remus are legendary, fictional type characters. Archaeology shows the city much older than magically showing up in 753BC. Saying that Romulus founded Rome is like saying Athena really showed up so the city was named after her instead of her uncle that lived in the water.
You have starts and stops for times that aren't actually starts or stops.
The government swap that happened when Jules came back didn't change the country into another country. It's sort of like how America didn't end and then start over again when it had it's own civil war. People's lives were mostly the same, unless you were involved in anything to do with power, which most aren't/weren't, just like today.
What you call the Holy Roman empire didn't start being a political entity in 800, it was already a nation in existence that was called something else. A great conquerer(Charlemagne) from that nation rode in and took over the land that is northern Italy. The pope then blew smoke up his keester and flattered him a title, but the king of Germany, who's titles from that time on also included Holy Roman emperor, didn't transfer any of his power of rulership to the pope. No government reformation. No founding of a new nation.

In short, the pope was never the ruler or any type of political head for the HRE. The pope didn't even get an electors seat. The mental gymnastics that have to be done to try and make old Germany and the Vatican morph into the Rome of antiquity for the sake of your interpretation of prophecy is staggering. Round peg, square hole.

 

[DavidT]

You have misunderstood what I said. God will only send an angel down to earth in human form to be seen of man in God's purpose like He did with Abraham and Lot. There are many angels around us that we never see, but yet are also here for God's purpose for us.

You are the one that said the following, I didn't:

"I agree Satan is cast down into the earth, but you can not read into those scriptures that he will transform himself into a human man."

Like I have said, there is nowhere written in God's Word that 'any' angel needed to be transformed to a "human man" in order to appear on earth to actual flesh born humans.

And as I have also said, the image of man is the image of the angels also, even in the heavenly, because that image of man originates from God's Own Image Likeness, which is what the Genesis 1:26-27 Scripture is about.

 

[DavidT]

It has nothing to do with Reformers or man's theology or even any religion, but the full context of scriptures with Biblical history of the four Empires with the last one in the latter days. What I write is of my own studying apart from any man's doctrines or theories teaching me anything. These insinuations you make against me that I only follow man's teachings are false accusations and I would appreciate it if would stop this. I respect your views and I would ask that you respect mine in hopes we could learn from each other.

I disagree, to treat a pope and the Vatican today as the coming Antichrist is that old doctrine of the 15th-16th century Protestant Reformation. The orthodox Jews in Jerusalem are looking for 'their' Messiah of The Bible to come, not a pope.

 

[DavidT]

Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:1-9

Maybe the Holy Spirit doesn’t understand how conjunctions tie sentences and context together.

JLB

Can't use the simple conjunction "and" to claim all those events are the same; they may be about the same object, like that "dragon" in the case of Revelation 12:3-4 verses, but that does not modify the actual type of event given. What you're trying to do is to use "And" as a modifier of the event.

Look at all the 'ands' in the following:

Matt 4:21-23
21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and He called them.

22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed Him.

23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
KJV

The "And" connects Jesus, but the events described happened at different times. His calling to James and John who were in a ship was one event, and their leaving to go with Jesus as He went about "all Galilee" is about another event.

Likewise, the Revelation 12:3-4 verses about the "dragon" is for when he first rebelled against God, because it was at his original rebellion when he first drew a third of the angels to earth. It's about his fall from heaven way back in history, even prior to Adam and Eve. This is why Lord Jesus said in Luke 10:18 that He beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. That certainly did not happen at the end of this world, because that was Christ's 1st coming when He said that.

But the subject of Revelation 12:7-17 is about Satan and his angels being booted out of heaven 'specifically' at the very end of this world.

 

[for_his_glory]

Except that when you do your own studies, you are looking at what men wrote about history, because most of the things you say about this stuff doesn't come from the bible.

Whose studies should I then believe, man's or what is already presented in scripture and the history of the four Empires?
I know you will not take the time to read Chapter 13 in my book on Revelation found under the subforum "Revelation" where I go into more detail.

This is loaded with reasons why you have such a hard time selling what you are trying to pass off.

Not selling or passing off anything. Romulus and Remus is a very debated subject whether they were real or not, but the rest I have written does come from historical facts in which is all I can go by in my studies. I never ask anyone to believe what I present, but to do their own study whether they believe me or not.

 

[for_his_glory]

To present himself as God in the flesh; the Christ (antichrist)

Where do we read anywhere in scripture about Satan of his own free will taking on the form of a man? Sorry, but I just can't agree with this, but I could be wrong.

 

[for_his_glory]

You are the one that said the following, I didn't:

"I agree Satan is cast down into the earth, but you can not read into those scriptures that he will transform himself into a human man."

Like I have said, there is nowhere written in God's Word that 'any' angel needed to be transformed to a "human man" in order to appear on earth to actual flesh born humans.

And as I have also said, the image of man is the image of the angels also, even in the heavenly, because that image of man originates from God's Own Image Likeness, which is what the Genesis 1:26-27 Scripture is about.

Where does it say in scripture that God created angels in His likeness as all I read there in Genesis 1:26-27 is that man was created in His image, after our likeness. I believe the words "our likeness" is referring to God and Jesus in that verse before Jesus came in the flesh of man.

Angels have no gender (Matthew 22:30) and are innumerable (Hebrews 12:22). They are incarnate in human form at times (Genesis 18:2-8) for the purpose of ministry. Angels also express emotions (Luke 15:10), are wise (2 Samuel 14:20) and powerful (Psalms 103:20).

You never know when and where an angel of God will show up and as Hebrews 13:2 says be careful for you never know when you are entertaining angels unaware.

 

[JLB]

Can't use the simple conjunction "and" to claim all those events are the same; they may be about the same object, like that "dragon" in the case of Revelation 12:3-4 verses, but that does not modify the actual type of event given. What you're trying to do is to use "And" as a modifier of the event.

Yes of course we can use the word “and” to contextually understand that the first “sign” (the woman) and the second sign (the dragon with ten horns) are contextually related and do indeed interact with one another with that context, as it continues on in the chapter.





Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:1-9


The time frame when all these events take place is during the 31/2 years of the great tribulation.






JLB

 

[JLB]

Where do we read anywhere in scripture about Satan of his own free will taking on the form of a man? Sorry, but I just can't agree with this, but I could be wrong.

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4


Do you believe Satan will inhabit the man of sin?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Where does it say in scripture that God created angels in His likeness as all I read there in Genesis 1:26-27 is that man was created in His image,

Angels are sons of God.

Adam was created by God as a son of God.

Angels are referred to and described in some places of scripture as men.




To me this indicates that angels are created in the likeness of God.





JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4


Do you believe Satan will inhabit the man of sin?



JLB

I agree Satan will inhabit the son of perdition, but not that of Satan taking on flesh and bones, but only working through this person like he always has beginning with the serpent.

 

[for_his_glory]

Angels are sons of God.

Adam was created by God as a son of God.

Angels are referred to and described in some places of scripture as men.




To me this indicates that angels are created in the likeness of God.





JLB

I was only asking for scripture where angels are made in the likeness of God.


Angels are essentially “ministering spirits,” (Hebrews 1:14) and do not have physical bodies like humans. Jesus declared that “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:37-39).

The Bible classifies some angels as “elect” (1 Timothy 5:21) or “holy” (Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38). All angels were created to be holy, enjoying the presence of God (Matthew 18:10) and the beauty of heaven (Mark 13:32).

Other angels oppose God under the leadership of Satan (Isaiah 14:12-20) whom even Satan is a created spirit of God that is why God could never destroy him because a spirit can not die. (Matthew 25:41; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1: 6; Ephesians 6:12). We often call these types of angels demons for which an everlasting fire is prepared by God for these angels.

Angels have no gender (Matthew 22:30) and are innumerable (Hebrews 12:22). They are incarnate in human form at times (Genesis 18:2-8) for the purpose of ministry. Angels also express emotions (Luke 15:10), are wise (2 Samuel 14:20) and powerful (Psalms 103:20).

 

[JLB]

Angels have no gender (Matthew 22:30)

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. Matthew 22:30

As we see this verse does not say they have no gender, but that they angels "in heaven" do not marry.

We know that angels, sons of God do indeed take on human form, and can function as humans when they are on earth.


Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,.... So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes.” And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it. So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate. Genesis 18:1-2, 6-8

As we see, the Lord and two angels with Him appeared as men, they ate and drank and the scriptures call them "men".


Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way. And the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing,... Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. Genesis 18:16-17,22

These "men" were actually angels and they ended up being accosted by the homosexual men in Sodom, who saw them as men. They eventually destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.


Angels do indeed take on human form as the gender of men, and can function as humans.




JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree Satan will inhabit the son of perdition, but not that of Satan taking on flesh and bones, but only working through this person like he always has beginning with the serpent.

Ok

 

[for_his_glory]

We know that angels, sons of God do indeed take on human form, and can function as humans when they are on earth.

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Notice in this verse it says "are as the angels of God in heaven".

I understand this to mean that since angels in heaven are spirit form, not flesh and blood, that would mean they have no gender. In scripture we do read the masculine gender when they are sent down to earth as I believe only God gives them human form for His own purpose. I have never read or heard that angels by their own freewill can take on human form by themselves, but I could be wrong.

Heb 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

 

[JLB]

I understand this to mean that since angels in heaven are spirit form, not flesh and blood, that would mean they have no gender. In scripture we do read the masculine gender when they are sent down to earth as I believe only God gives them human form for His own purpose. I have never read or heard that angels by their own freewill can take on human form by themselves, but I could be wrong.

We know that our resurrected bodies are in fact bodies, in which we can inhabit heaven or earth and eat and drink as the Lord did.

We are not just spirits.


So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

We know that our resurrected bodies are in fact bodies, in which we can inhabit heaven or earth and eat and drink as the Lord did.

We are not just spirits.


So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44




JLB

But yet we do not know what our Spiritual bodies will look like other then knowing we will be like Christ. Does anyone of us know what a Spiritual body will look like as flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We have no idea what we will look like.

Since we are raised a spiritual body, for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality, 1Co 15:53, I see no need for having to eat literal food to nourish an immortal body.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

BTW, I think even though the study of angels is important, but I think we have strayed away from the OP.

 

[DavidT]

Where does it say in scripture that God created angels in His likeness as all I read there in Genesis 1:26-27 is that man was created in His image, after our likeness. I believe the words "our likeness" is referring to God and Jesus in that verse before Jesus came in the flesh of man.

Angels have no gender (Matthew 22:30) and are innumerable (Hebrews 12:22). They are incarnate in human form at times (Genesis 18:2-8) for the purpose of ministry. Angels also express emotions (Luke 15:10), are wise (2 Samuel 14:20) and powerful (Psalms 103:20).

You never know when and where an angel of God will show up and as Hebrews 13:2 says be careful for you never know when you are entertaining angels unaware.

Nah, I'm not going down that rabbit hole. Either you believe the image of man originated from God's Own Image, or you don't, and that is why the angels that appeared on earth also have the image of men.

In order to believe what you say, that in order for angels (and even Christ before His 1st coming) to appear with the image of man on earth, they had to put on a flesh human body, the burden of proof for that idea lay upon you.

Heb 1:2-3
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
KJV

These below Scriptures are about the appearance of The Father and Son in the Heavenly, not on earth. Since they are shown with the image of 'man', that proves what I've been saying, that the image of man originated from God's Own Image Likeness in the Heavenly, and thus did not originate with flesh.

Ezek 1:26
26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
KJV

Dan 7:9
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, Whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: His throne was like the fiery flame, and His wheels as burning fire.
KJV

Dan 7:13
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him.
KJV

 

[DavidT]

Yes of course we can use the word “and” to contextually understand that the first “sign” (the woman) and the second sign (the dragon with ten horns) are contextually related and do indeed interact with one another with that context, as it continues on in the chapter.

Well no, we cannot try to change the context of the event by simple usage of a conjunction like "And".

It is a common mistake many make when reading those Revelation 12:3-4 verses that also mention the idea of "ten horns, seven heads", and then stop heeding the rest of that Scripture about that one only having had "seven crowns", and also skipping that Scripture part about that "dragon" drawing a third of the stars (angels) to earth.

So since you are not willing to discuss those differences with that Revelation 12:3-4 example, I will not continue discussing this with you either.