Nation shall rise against Nation

[for_his_glory]

Rev 12:1-6

John is shown a great sign in heaven as he sees a vision of a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet. The sun is representative of the glory and brilliance of Gods righteousness that surrounds her and protects her. Under her feet the moon which is illustrative of eternity, light, Gods faithfulness in His Son Jesus who is the greater light of the gospel age as Jesus being the light of the world that shines in darkness, but the darkness can not comprehend the light, Psalms 72:5-7; Isaiah 2:3-5; Jeremiah 31:35-37; Isaiah 30:26-33; John 1:1-5.

The woman is symbolic of Israel and the congregation of Gods people as she wears a crown of twelve stars which represents the twelve tribes of Israel that have repented of their arrogance as they felt they deserved Gods favor, but yet kept killing the prophets God sent to them, including the very Messiah they were waiting for. This is when the times of the Gentiles began as God went to them to take Himself a people that were humbled enough to receive salvation as God had mercy on them, Matthew 23:37-39; Acts 15:14; Romans 11:25-27.

Paul also warned the Gentiles against being lifted up in pride because they had been favored by God with salvation as he explained the blindness of Israel would not last forever as when they see the Gentiles now having favor in the Lord and being grafted into the branch of Israel they repent of their sin and turn back to God being once again found in His favor, Romans Chapter 11.

The true congregation of God can be symbolized here as a mother that has all here children gathered in one place for safety which in this case is under the wings of the almighty God, Psalms 91. She cries out like a woman in labor as the pain of her persecutions has become too great to bear as she waits to be delivered from her persecutors, 2 Timothy 4:18; 2 Peter 2:9; Colossians 1:13.​

 

[for_his_glory]

That's all theory per certain denominations, of which I will not name.

We still do not know who the "ten kings" of Revelation 17 will be, because they will only appear when the beast king (i.e., false Messiah) shows up, and he is not here yet today. And they rule only "one hour" with the beast (i.e., beast king), which that "one hour" is a metaphor for the "great tribulation" time.

Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
KJV

And the fact that verse 14 above shows those "ten kings" will make war with The Lamb, that also reveals the time when they are revealed, and that "one hour" of their rule being at the very end, when false Messiah shows up for the great trib.

These are not theories, but actual recorded Biblical history. If you want to refute history then so be it, but it might help your understanding if you would study these things.

FYI, I do not believe in denominations/non-denominations as they cause to many divisions within their own doctrines.

 

[for_his_glory]

Can the three of us discuss this. I would like to hear what you guys have to say about this subject, and the following scripture.

I have never read n scripture where Satan or any angel can take on human form by their own doing. I do know that scripture does say they can inhabit humans like the crazy man in the tombs and that of Mary Magdalene.

 

[DavidT]

The Red Dragon symbol represents Satan expressing his dominion through world government; The Ten Kings


That has not come to full fruition but is taking place right now before our very eyes.


And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. Revelation 12:3-6



This takes place during the 3.5 years know as the great tribulation which is the last half of Daniel‘s 70th week.

• Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

JLB

Tell me then, what does the phrase in red below mean, and when was it?

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

 

[DavidT]

I agree Satan is cast down into the earth, but you can not read into those scriptures that he will transform himself into a human man.

I refuse to believe the idea you have gotten from men that angels must take on a human flesh body in order to appear on earth. That idea is nowhere... written in The Word of God. If it were, you would have produced the Scripture evidence by now.

 

[DavidT]

But it is known and I have showed you it is the revived Roman Empire. I will give it to you again.

No need to give it again, that idea is an old failed doctrine from the Reformation, and it is tainted because of what the Reformers thought in their day about the Roman Church (not the Roman empire). There is NO connection of today's Roman Catholic Church with the old pagan Roman empire. (And no, I'm not Catholic, I am a Protestant.)

The Reformers believed the Roman Church and the pope represented the Antichrist because of how they were persecuted by the Roman Church. They believed Jesus' 2nd coming would be in their day because of the persecutions. That failed doctrine in the Reformer's time I believe is only being pushed still today because of the orthodox unbelieving Jew's strategy against Christ's Church, mainly because of how the Jews felt persecuted by the old Roman Church.

Furthermore, I have given you the Scripture evidence about the latter day "ten kings" per the Revelation 17 Chapter, showing they only come to power at the end, "one hour", with the beast (i.e., beast king). That has yet to happen to today, so the applying of the historical papal kingdom under a pope is a Jewish fable.

 

[DavidT]

Satan from the beginning of iniquity that was found in him has always caused nation to be against nation as he works his deceitfulness through others as a roaring lion seeking to devour.

The first battle mention in scripture is found in Genesis 14:1-24. Shinar, Ellasar and Elam became known later in scripture as being Babylon, which is now modern day Iraq. These kings have always fought and taken captive Gods covenant people starting with Lot who was Abraham's nephew in whom Abraham took his army and fought against these four eastern kings and defeated them. This first battle was about controlling power, greed and monopoly on international trade (economics) as they tried to defeat everyone who opposed them as they took captive not only possessions from others, but also held them captive those who would not bow down to their false gods. As history repeats itself this same ruling Empire that has exisited since the time of Abraham and going clear back to Nimrod and the Tower of Babel will also take place in the end of days when the beast rises out of the sea and gives power to the beast out of the earth who will exercise all the power of the first beast before him. The beast out of the earth will have ruling power over economics, political and a one order religion, Rev Chapter 13.

We know how history repeats itself as Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times as these eastern kings will always try to take posession of what God gave to Abraham through the covenant God made with him in Genesis 12:1-3 and all his generation after him. This will continue until the last day when Christ returns, John 6:40, as these four kings are that of the controlling power within the four nations Daniel speaks of in Daniel Chapter 7 with the last one that received a deadly wound, but the wound has been healed, Revelation 13:3. The four nations are: Babylonian Empire: Iraq (the lion), Medo, Persian Empire: Iran (the ribs of the bear), Grecian Empire: (Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt) four wings of the leopard, Roman Empire: (Iron represents the stronghold this nation had and still has). Daniel chapter 2 mentions the iron element of this empire that it to will be divided and broken as God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.

The beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. The beast was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies and power was given unto him to continue for three and a half years which equals 1260 days, Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 11:2, 3. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them and power was given him over all kindred’s, and tongues, and nations as this beast is the same as the four eastern kings found in Genesis 14:1-24 and Daniel Chapter 7.

Notice the fourth king in Genesis 14:1 was king over many nations as Satan worked through him as well as the other three kings, Genesis 14:14:1. This is the same with the beast out of the earth, that is the son of perdition/last antichrist) that Satan works through who will try to devour all those of faith in God and His Son Christ Jesus, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12; Rev 13:11-18. Daniel 7:24, 25 and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, He will think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time (3 1/2 years). This fourth king (beast out of the earth) whose deadly wound came in 1798 and the wound was healed in 1929 is even now plotting for economic, political, military and religious control as he is the son of perdition who is the last false prophet (antichrist) who by lying signs and wonders will cause a great falling away from God, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 in as much as he can deceive the very elect if possible, Matthew 24:24.

I suggest you study the parables God put in His Word about Satan's original exalted status and then fall into rebellion. Ezekiel 28 and Ezekiel 31 would be a start. Also see Isaiah 14, for it has a parable about Satan also.

Isa 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?"
KJV

Even our Heavenly Father refers to Satan as a "man" per that Scripture. It's because the image of man originates from God's Own Image Likeness per Genesis 1:26-27. What servant of Christ can thus deny that simple Scripture evidence?

 

[DavidT]

These are not theories, but actual recorded Biblical history. If you want to refute history then so be it, but it might help your understanding if you would study these things.

FYI, I do not believe in denominations/non-denominations as they cause to many divisions within their own doctrines.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree. And I am a Protestant Christian.

I refuse to allow men's politics to cloud the simplicity of God's Word. There is no connection at all with the old 'pagan' Roman Empire and the later Catholic Church.

And if one wants to dwell on persecutions by the Church upon Christians, then they can also look to Protestant Germany and Protestant England and find Christian martyrs there too persecuted by supposed Church authorities that were against allowing God's Word going to print (Thank You King James of England for making sure we English speaking peoples could each have a copy of God's written Word!)

And as for what organizations, including religions, will be subjected under the power of the coming "man of sin", who will sit in a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem for the end, as written in 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul showed there that false one will exalt himself over all that is called God, or that is worshipped.

2 Thess 2:4
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

That means he will sit over Christianity also, and over all religion upon the earth for the end. Only devout Christians who wait for Jesus to return, and that by refusing to bow to that coming "man of sin", nor take his mark, will represent the True Church in that future time. That means Protestant Christianity also, not just the Catholic Church. So singling out the Catholic Church reveals a political agenda, and not the actual written Word of God.

 

[DavidT]

Rev 12:1-6

John is shown a great sign in heaven as he sees a vision of a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet. The sun is representative of the glory and brilliance of Gods righteousness that surrounds her and protects her. Under her feet the moon which is illustrative of eternity, light, Gods faithfulness in His Son Jesus who is the greater light of the gospel age as Jesus being the light of the world that shines in darkness, but the darkness can not comprehend the light, Psalms 72:5-7; Isaiah 2:3-5; Jeremiah 31:35-37; Isaiah 30:26-33; John 1:1-5.
​

It's much easier to know that God already defined those symbols for the symbolic "woman" that represents His Israel, per the Genesis 37 Chapter...

Gen 37:9-10
9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, "Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."

10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, "What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?"
KJV

Thus the 12 stars of the crown the symbolic "woman" of Rev.12 is wearing represent Jacob's 12 sons which become the 12 tribes of Israel. And the sun and moon are symbols representing Joseph's father and mother. This is how we allow God's Word to speak, and interpret His Own Word for us, keeping things simple.

 

[DavidT]

Brilliant deduction. We actually agree on this count

Jesus was pretty clear and open about the location of devils. Their location is IN MANKIND

We'd have to be asleep to miss that message

There is a world that Jesus saw, in the Spiritual realms, that Paul sometimes saw, that John saw, that most of us do not see into all that often, if ever

That is also where Satan is "perceived" to be

The majority of the world is asleep, under Satan's control, right here, right now, and it has been this way for the world of the flesh from day 1 of mankind

Eph. 2:2

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The only difference between a believer and an unbeliever on this count, is that we see, AND AVOID

Anyone who can't see that the spirit of disobedience is running this world isn't paying much attention

So... Jesus came in a flesh body when He visited Abraham with the two angels He sent to Sodom and Gomorrah to get Lot and his family out?

Gen 18:1-8
18 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

3 And said, "My Lord, if now I have found favour in Thy sight, pass not away, I pray Thee, from Thy servant:

4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:

5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant." And they said, "So do, as thou hast said."

6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, "Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth."

7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.

8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
KJV

I did not know that Lord Jesus Who appeared there to Abraham at his tent door was born in the flesh back in Abraham's day! That is such... a revelation! Problem is though, I cannot find ANY Biblical support for His being in a flesh body in order to appear to Abraham, and eat man's food.

In the latter part of that Genesis 18 Chapter, Christ is still standing there talking with Abraham while the two men (angels) went to Sodom and Gomorrah to get Lot and his family out. Abraham begged Christ to not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if He found any righteous there.

Thus, that is the silly notion created when one thinks The Angel of The LORD (Christ in the Old Testament) or angels that appeared to God's servants have to put on a flesh body in order to appear on earth.

 

[JLB]

Tell me then, what does the phrase in red below mean, and when was it?

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.


This is a sign which we see the reality of in the next verses.


And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:7-9



Until that time, Satan and his angels are are referred as…spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places




For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ephesians 6:12




JLB

 

[JLB]

I have never read n scripture where Satan or any angel can take on human form by their own doing. I do know that scripture does say they can inhabit humans like the crazy man in the tombs and that of Mary Magdalene.

We know angels can take on human form, however I have not found in scripture where Satan and his angels can take on human form.



I do know however that Satan and his angels will one day soon, be cast to the earth, and I believe this scripture in Daniel may be worth discussing in the light of current technology that involves cloning as well as synthetic biology, which could very well create a body for Satan to inhabit.


As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. Daniel 2:43


Again, this scripture in contextually pertinent to our discussion of Revelation 12 and Daniel 7.



Synthetic biology is a field of science that involves redesigning organisms for useful purposes by engineering them to have new abilities.

What is the difference between synthetic biology and genome editing?​

In some ways, synthetic biology is similar to another approach called "genome editing" because both involve changing an organism's genetic code; however, some people draw a distinction between these two approaches based on how that change is made. In synthetic biology, scientists typically stitch together long stretches of DNA and insert them into an organism's genome. These synthesized pieces of DNA could be genes that are found in other organisms or they could be entirely novel. In genome editing, scientists typically use tools to make smaller changes to the organism's own DNA. Genome editing tools can also be used to delete or add small stretches of DNA in the genome.






JLB

 

[DavidT]

And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.


This is a sign which we see the reality of in the next verses.


And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:7-9

No, the Revelation 12:7-9 event happens later, and is still future to us. That is why the saints that overcome by the blood of The Lamb, and by their testimony are involved with the verse 7-9 casting out of the heavenly. That is also why that later time of casting out is related to the "short time" the devil knows he has, pointing to the very end of this world, i.e., the short time of the "great tribulation". Thus the whole Revelation 12:7-17 Scripture is about the very end involving the time of "great tribulation" that Jesus warned us about.

Rev 12:11-12
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV

Until that time, Satan and his angels are are referred as…spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places


For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ephesians 6:12


JLB

That's a different argument, because it is written that the devil will appear on earth at the end. The angels don't have flesh bodies, and neither did Christ back in The Old Testament when He appeared to Abraham.
Thus if you argue that angels must put on a flesh body to appear on earth to God's servants, then you must also infer that Lord Jesus back in The Old Testament did the same, which would negate the idea of His being born through Mary's womb later.

 

[JLB]

No, the Revelation 12:7-9 event happens later, and is still future to us.

You mean yes, the Revelation 12:7-9 event happens future to us.

Because that is what I'm saying.

 

[DavidT]

You mean yes, the Revelation 12:7-9 event happens future to us.

Because that is what I'm saying.

No, that is not what I wrote. What you did in your post was link the Revelation 12:3-4 event with the later Revelation 12:7-17 events.

1. Revelation 12:3-4 = the time when Satan as that "red dragon" first rebelled against God, drawing a third of the angels into rebellion with him. That happened sometime prior to Adam and Eve, simply because Satan as "that old serpent" was already in his role as the Tempter, tempting Adam and Eve.

2. Revelation 12:7-17 = a time in our near future when war will happen in Heavenly between Archangel Michael and his angels, vs. Satan and his angels, and then Satan and his angels are literally cast out of the Heavenly, no longer allowed to appear before God's Throne to accuse us. That has yet to happen today. The time of this event is still future and we are also shown about it Daniel 12.

Dan 12:1
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
KJV

That is about that same event of Revelation 12:7-17 regarding Satan's final casting out with his angels, which Daniel 12:1 there reveals is for the "great tribulation" time Jesus warned us about.

Matt 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

This is why the beast system of Revelation 12:3-4 when Satan originally rebelled, has a different number of crowns than the final beast for the end per Revelation 13.

 

[for_his_glory]

We know angels can take on human form, however I have not found in scripture where Satan and his angels can take on human form.



I do know however that Satan and his angels will one day soon, be cast to the earth, and I believe this scripture in Daniel may be worth discussing in the light of current technology that involves cloning as well as synthetic biology, which could very well create a body for Satan to inhabit.


As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. Daniel 2:43


Again, this scripture in contextually pertinent to our discussion of Revelation 12 and Daniel 7.



Synthetic biology is a field of science that involves redesigning organisms for useful purposes by engineering them to have new abilities.

What is the difference between synthetic biology and genome editing?​

In some ways, synthetic biology is similar to another approach called "genome editing" because both involve changing an organism's genetic code; however, some people draw a distinction between these two approaches based on how that change is made. In synthetic biology, scientists typically stitch together long stretches of DNA and insert them into an organism's genome. These synthesized pieces of DNA could be genes that are found in other organisms or they could be entirely novel. In genome editing, scientists typically use tools to make smaller changes to the organism's own DNA. Genome editing tools can also be used to delete or add small stretches of DNA in the genome.






JLB

I realize that cloning is very real, but it's only an assumption, not a fact, that man would make an actual body for Satan to inhabit. Why would he even need a physical body as from the beginning starting with the serpent in the garden up through the four Empires and the last antichrist being the son of perdition Satan has always worked through others as a roaring lion seeking in whom he can devour.

 

[for_his_glory]

I refuse to believe the idea you have gotten from men that angels must take on a human flesh body in order to appear on earth. That idea is nowhere... written in The Word of God. If it were, you would have produced the Scripture evidence by now.

You have misunderstood what I said. God will only send an angel down to earth in human form to be seen of man in God's purpose like He did with Abraham and Lot. There are many angels around us that we never see, but yet are also here for God's purpose for us.

 

[for_his_glory]

No need to give it again, that idea is an old failed doctrine from the Reformation, and it is tainted because of what the Reformers thought in their day about the Roman Church (not the Roman empire). There is NO connection of today's Roman Catholic Church with the old pagan Roman empire. (And no, I'm not Catholic, I am a Protestant.)

The Reformers believed the Roman Church and the pope represented the Antichrist because of how they were persecuted by the Roman Church. They believed Jesus' 2nd coming would be in their day because of the persecutions. That failed doctrine in the Reformer's time I believe is only being pushed still today because of the orthodox unbelieving Jew's strategy against Christ's Church, mainly because of how the Jews felt persecuted by the old Roman Church.

Furthermore, I have given you the Scripture evidence about the latter day "ten kings" per the Revelation 17 Chapter, showing they only come to power at the end, "one hour", with the beast (i.e., beast king). That has yet to happen to today, so the applying of the historical papal kingdom under a pope is a Jewish fable.

It has nothing to do with Reformers or man's theology or even any religion, but the full context of scriptures with Biblical history of the four Empires with the last one in the latter days. What I write is of my own studying apart from any man's doctrines or theories teaching me anything. These insinuations you make against me that I only follow man's teachings are false accusations and I would appreciate it if would stop this. I respect your views and I would ask that you respect mine in hopes we could learn from each other.

 

[for_his_glory]

It's much easier to know that God already defined those symbols for the symbolic "woman" that represents His Israel, per the Genesis 37 Chapter...

Gen 37:9-10
9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, "Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."

10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, "What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?"
KJV

Thus the 12 stars of the crown the symbolic "woman" of Rev.12 is wearing represent Jacob's 12 sons which become the 12 tribes of Israel. And the sun and moon are symbols representing Joseph's father and mother. This is how we allow God's Word to speak, and interpret His Own Word for us, keeping things simple.

I never said different.

 

[JLB]

What you did in your post was link the Revelation 12:3-4 event with the later Revelation 12:7-17 events.

Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:1-9


Maybe the Holy Spirit doesn’t understand how conjunctions tie sentences and context together.





JLB