Need a hand here folks: The Word?

[handy]

Ok, I read all the posts and I've studied all the posts and now I've come to look like this: :crazyeyes:

Mutz, regarding the words of the Lord not passing away, OK. I'll accept that He still doesn't know the day or the hour then. I don't take it as a particularly important point anyway.

No, I'm not the same as my husband, nor is the Son the same as the Father. But, just as I and my husband are one marriage, the Father and Son are One God. Just because the Father and Son have differing roles does not mean that they are not One God.

Imagican, I appreciate the time you took to respond to my post. I still stand by it. However, and please don't take this the wrong way, sometimes I find it very hard to understand just what you are getting at because of the very difficult way you present your posts, with all the caps. Maybe I'm not agreeing with you, because I'm mis-understanding you.

I've tried to think of anything further that I have for this conversation, and I don't think I do. No point in just going around and around.

However, I've posted Hebrews 1:8 before, but it seems to be getting over looked:

But of the Son He says,
Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever.

The Scriptures, with this one verse really settles all questions for me.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit: all are God.

Good discussion.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Ok, I read all the posts and I've studied all the posts and now I've come to look like this: :crazyeyes:
....please don't take this the wrong way, sometimes I find it very hard to understand just what you are getting at because of the very difficult way you present your posts, with all the caps. Maybe I'm not agreeing with you, because I'm mis-understanding you...

Get in line. It's a long one.
..

...I've tried to think of anything further that I have for this conversation, and I don't think I do. No point in just going around and around.

It has always been thus.

 

[DanR]

So, MEC, what do you think it means?

...Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Nothing could be plainer than the above. John personified Christ as the WORD.

CHRIST=THE WORD. End of story.

 

[Imagican]

Oh, good grief, Charlie Brown! :-D He's our Intercessor, every prayer is to Him. :crazyeyes:

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

Vic,

And here you 'choose' to offer individual scripture that is taken as ALL that has been offered. Christ Prayed TO the Father. Christ was asked HOW we should pray and GAVE example. You offer above scripture that PLAINLY offers EXACTLY what I have stated. That we Pray TO the Father. Whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Do you NOT 'see' what this SAYS? Plainly? What ever we ask OF GOD, in the NAME of Christ, GOD may give it to you. I do not believe that this does ANYTHING but plainly offer EXACTLY what I offered that you dispute.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

So, MEC, what do you think it means?

...Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Nothing could be plainer than the above. John personified Christ as the WORD.

CHRIST=THE WORD. End of story.

And you STATE this as an actual entity; The Word. Yet it is apparent from ALL that is offered that The Word is NOT an entity, BUT EXACTLY what it IS: The Word of God. For the Word was NOT God, nor was it an entity, but the Word BECAME flesh. Get it. The key word being BECAME.

Now, I have offered this OVER AND OVER AGAIN and not a 'single trinitarian' has offered an answer to it. I assume that it's NOT 'something' that you CHOOSE to confront: Christ STATED that The Words that He offered us ARE NOT HIS OWN. Get it? NOT HIS OWN. But GIVEN Him BY The Father, (who we KNOW IS GOD).

Now, I have attempted to confront the questions directed at me, why is it that I have offered this QUESTION to just about EVERYONE that I have attempted to answer. NOW, please explain to me what Christ is stating when He offers that the Words that He offered were NOT HIS OWN. And it's OBVIOUS that no one wants to confront this for it is an OUTRIGHT statement by Christ Himself that He is not God Himself, but the Son of God as HE plainly offered to all willing to 'listen'.

Using The Word to 'describe' His purpose does NOT make 'The Word' a personification of God. For God's Word was ONLY a 'part of God'. No different than calling The Spirit God Himself. When EVERYTHING that we have been offered is that The Spirit is ONLY a 'part' of God.

Mutz, You have offered a 'practically PERFECT' understanding of the relationship of God and His Son. I commend you for your effort. And folks, it's amazing that each of you has a 'different' understanding of 'trinity' yet INSIST that it IS a 'concept' offered by God through The Word. Funny, but I understand EVERY word that Mutz offers and can practically duplicate his understanding in my own. Perhaps not as eloquently, but in content PRACTICALLY the SAME understanding. And I have ONLY met Mutz here. I do NOT know this man or ANYTHING about him other than the words that he offers.

And I contend that the 'trinity' as taught by the originators of the 'concept' did NOT teach that which is being offered here by those that 'supposedly' BELIEVE this doctrine. There is ONLY the vaguest inference of Christ BEING God Himself in it's original inception into Christianity. There is MUCH distinction offered as far as INDIVIDUAL identity. For the words written and accepted by the CC offer PLAIN reference to 'persons' of the 'trinity'.

Christ IS most certainly a 'part of God'. He stated it: The Son of God. And now there are those offering statements that not only is Christ God Himself, but HE IS THE FATHER as well. Hmmmm..... Now WHO is the liar if this is 'truth'? For truth cannot CONTRADICT ITSELF. Either Christ is the Son or He IS the Father. IT CANNOT BE BOTH. Yet this is what some have offered?

Come on my friends. Let us at least be reasonable in what we offer in front of those that may still be weak in their walk. What CONFUSION one would choose to offer in such a blatant contradiction of The Word. Christ TELLING us that He IS The Son, and then denying this by saying that He was the Father as well? Someone PLEASE tell me I'm dreaming. This EVEN defies the doctrine of 'trinity' itself. For 'trinity' even STATES that Father and Son and Spirit are SEPERATE 'persons'.

Someone help me out here: Do EVEN 'two' of you agree on this 'concept of trinity'. For what I see are about a half dozen DIFFERENT offerings concerning this 'doctrine'. If you would like, I will offer 'trinity' lessons so far as what the ACTUAL doctrine states.

What I see is the apparent intigration of the three basic DIFFERENT 'doctrines' that each is trying to 'say' is 'trinitarianism'. And then it will become 'apprarent' to those with the ability to 'see' that these doctrines offer MORE confusion that they eliminate. For I assume that all here that have something to 'offer' DO KNOW that there are three 'separate' groups of belief in Godhead, right? And then there is that which I attempt to offer, thus making FOUR.

But I didn't know that Unitarianism was allowed to be discussed here. And that SEEMS to be what 'some' are offering in the guise of 'trinity'. For to state a 'belief' that the Father IS The Son is NOT a 'trinitarian' belief.

Vic? Somebody help me out here.............. Could the God that I KNOW offer SO much confusion over WHO He IS? And HOW could we mistake The Son FOR the Father?

Beware folks. God does NOT take lightly words that subvert WHO He is and what He has offered. And to agree to accept what He has offered ONE MUST accept WHO He is. For to accept that given without an understanding of WHO is 'giving it' is quite obviously a confusion that IS able to negate the 'gift offered to begin with'. For we KNOW that there ARE gods MANY. And each is able to offer. But ONLY ONE is able to deliver that which is righteousness. The others, only that which pertains to the FLESH. The ONE that one chooses to 'follow' will determine the 'gift' receieved.

And let me close with this: Satan is able to reward any and all that subvert their brothers and sisters FROM the TRUTH. And HE HAS infiltrated the 'churches'. He is 'making way' for HIS earthly reign. And for this to 'take place', HE MUST subvert the churches into following HIM rather than the TRUE God. Causing those that 'believe' that they follow the TRUE God to follow HIM instead. And Satan WILL and DOES reward those that are ABLE to 'bring this into BEING'. Whether it be pastors, priests, or the laity. He uses ANY that choose to follow him to subvert others to HIS WILL.

So, beware of what you allow others to offer so far as influence is concerned. There is ONLY One God. And there is ONLY ONE SON. And the Father and Son ARE ONE IN SPIRIT. Their desire is The SAME. That EACH of us come to the understanding of LOVE. God, through Creation itself, and Christ AS the EXAMPLE of the love offered to us IN THE FLESH. Showing that it IS possible to come to a perfect understanding while IN THE FLESH. And that WE TOO are to FOLLOW this example so that we too can become ONE with Our Father who IS The ONE TRUE GOD. Anything that 'takes away' from this understanding makes it very difficult to PLEASE God. And it makes it almost impossible to succeed in a 'beneficial walk'.

I would offer NOTHING other than that those that WISH to KNOW God recognize and accept His Son. And through this acceptance gain an understanding of the LOVE that IS Our God. READ The Word and pray without ceasing. Love your neighbor AS YOURSELF and build yourself an acceptable temple for God within YOUR hearts.

Refuse doctrines of men and accept that which was offered in TRUTH through Christ and His apostles. Ignore that which is NOT offered through their wholesome words. And be NOT 'people pleasers' for the sake of popularity, but BE pleaser of God by OVERCOMING this world and it's temptations to 'follow IT' instead of God in LOVE.

Forgive me for my impatience at times and understand that I come here NOT to cause dissention, but to offer that which I have recieved. NOTHING more, nothing less. I 'invent' NOTHING. I have simply accepted that which has been offered and do that which I have been commanded. That 'this forum' be the 'best place' to perform this may or may not be determinable. So far it seems that there are 'few' here that would choose to follow anything other than what they have been taught by men. I cannot, nor will I EVER believe that ANY man can offer me ANYTHING in comparison to that which has been GIVEN me by my Father through HIs Son. And I also KNOW that NO MAN can take it away so long as I STAND FAST in Their LOVE. And what I would wish more than ANYTHING is that 'everyone' be able to experience this confidence and FAITH in Our God.

May God Bless you folks and lead your steps in understanding and truth.

MEC

 

[handy]

Hmmmm, seems to have been overlooked again.

So I'll say it again:

But of the Son He says,
Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever.

 

[mutzrein]

Ok, I read all the posts and I've studied all the posts and now I've come to look like this: :crazyeyes:

Mutz, regarding the words of the Lord not passing away, OK. I'll accept that He still doesn't know the day or the hour then. I don't take it as a particularly important point anyway.

No, I'm not the same as my husband, nor is the Son the same as the Father. But, just as I and my husband are one marriage, the Father and Son are One God. Just because the Father and Son have differing roles does not mean that they are not One God.

Imagican, I appreciate the time you took to respond to my post. I still stand by it. However, and please don't take this the wrong way, sometimes I find it very hard to understand just what you are getting at because of the very difficult way you present your posts, with all the caps. Maybe I'm not agreeing with you, because I'm mis-understanding you.

I've tried to think of anything further that I have for this conversation, and I don't think I do. No point in just going around and around.

However, I've posted Hebrews 1:8 before, but it seems to be getting over looked:

But of the Son He says,
Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever.

The Scriptures, with this one verse really settles all questions for me.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit: all are God.

Good discussion.

Thanks. To me, this is not an ‘around and around’ conversation. It does have a conclusion for the one who has ears to hear it.

I hadn’t focused on your Hebrews quote but will respond to it if you can tell me what this means.

1 Corinthians 15:27 (NIV)

For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

I would also like you to consider what Jesus meant when he said in John 17:11.

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your nameâ€â€the name you gave me so that they may be one as we are one.

 

[Imagican]

So, MEC, what do you think it means?

...Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Nothing could be plainer than the above. John personified Christ as the WORD.

CHRIST=THE WORD. End of story.

Acually The Word IS The Word of God, given to His Son in offering to US. For THIS IS what has been TOLD us by God's OWN Son. YOU say that Christ = The Word, but this is NOT what Christ Himself TOLD us through The Word.

So, The Word = The Word of God. Christ = The Son of God. God = The Father. These are TRUE statements offered by God, Christ and His apostles.

Guys, HOW was The Word MADE flesh? And WHO MADE the Word BECOME Flesh? WHAT was The Word BEFORE it 'became flesh'. For it IS these questions that beg an answer in order to 'understand' the offering of John. It is obvious that to BELIEVE what you have offered above is to IGNORE much that is offered previous by Christ and the apostles.

MEC

 

[mutzrein]

MEC - help me understand what you are saying. Who or what do you say that the 'word' was, that was made flesh?

Blessings

 

[handy]

Naw, just go ahead and respond to Hebrews 1:8. It's message is very clear, very straightforward. Putting into context, the He of the text is God, the Son is Jesus Christ.

 

[DanR]

John is defining the special sense of what he means by 'Word', so we don't have to do any work. Nothing could be plainer.

...Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Word was God (Word = God)
Word was made flesh (Word = human [or rather Human])
Flesh/Human = He

He = Jesus Christ

Word = Human = He = Jesus Christ.

Word = Christ (transitive principle of logical identity) Quod erat demonstrandum.

Or just plain horse-sense.

 

[Vic C.]

Dora and gabby, I'm throwing in the towel, after I use it to dust off my feet. This is a fruitless conversation and there's nothing to gain for me. What some are teaching here, I don't recognize; I don't know this Jesus; I only know the One revealed to me through scripture and the HS.

Jesus cannot be divine without being The Divine One. He IS Deity and since there is only One God, the conclusion is obvious to me. It seems to some here that God can create all we see, work miracles but somehow can't pull of a hypostatic union. Wow... :-?

It is no coincidence that the first words of the Book that reveals God to mankind, also begin the book that most aptly reveals Jesus to us:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Peace all,
Vic

 

[unred typo]

Dora and gabby, I'm throwing in the towel, after I use it to dust off my feet. This is a fruitless conversation and there's nothing to gain for me. What some are teaching here, I don't recognize; I don't know this Jesus; I only know the One revealed to me through scripture and the HS.

Jesus cannot be divine without being The Divine One. He IS Deity and since there is only One God, the conclusion is obvious to me. It seems to some here that God can create all we see, work miracles but somehow can't pull of a hypostatic union. Wow... :-?

It is no coincidence that the first words of the Book that reveals God to mankind, also begin the book that most aptly reveals Jesus to us:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Peace all,
Vic

May I offer a compromise? I don’t know of any verses that say there is only one true God after the incarnation of Christ. Could it be that Jesus is divinity, and not the ‘original’ one God, but actually the divine Son of this one true God? Just a thought. I don’t really consider this an issue to get all riled and divided over, since the nature of God is a true mystery. :-?

 

[Imagican]

Or could it BE that there IS a 'duality' of diety WITHOUT the NEED of 'man's' defining it through a 'limited' understanding.

I have offered on NUMEROUS occasion that we were NEVER told NOT to worhip ANYTHING OTHER THAN GOD. We were told not to worship ANYTHING AS GOD, other than God Himself.

So Christ is CERTAINLY able to exhit diety WIthout BEING God Himself. For God IS able to place honor and glory WHERE and in WHAT He will.

I have NEVER denied the 'diety' of Christ. I have simply offered opposition to a 'doctrine' that teaches something 'different' than that offered through The Word.

Ever notice how we can use the term The Word WITHOUT it refering to Christ? How MOST know and understand that when I write 'The Word', it is in reference to God's Word?

Mutz,

I will NOT offer an answer to your question. For the truth is veiled from the 'eyes' of those that WILL NOT UNDERSTAND. But what I will attempt to DO is offer information that MAY be able to lead one TO THE TRUTH. But this MUST be accomplished in the hearts and minds of those to which it is manifest.

Are these words TRUTH: "God's word was NOT Christ's words, but GIVEN Him of The Father?" Is this truth or is there some 'other meaning' behind Christ's words when He spoke such?

Now, WHEN did God GIVE His Son The Word? In other words, God's word existed PREVIOUS to Christ BEING introduced to mankind. Regardless of what many THINK, Christ, whether He WAS the 'creator' or NOT, was NEVER introduced to MANKIND until HE revealed it upon His ministry here. So, WHEN did God GIVE His Son His Word? Answer this question and there will be MUCH further understanding that is attainable. Ignore it and 'pretend' to understand will allow one to REMAIN static and without further understanding.

Folks, I have some BAD news for you. Satan IS the Father of this World. He OWNS it, (for now). And the FACT that there are those that DON'T KNOW THIS is perfect indication that there is 'something WRONG' with that which they CLAIM to 'believe in'. For IF there are ANY here that ARE truly 'led BY The Spirit of God', then this information will come as NO surprise and is without debate. That there WILL be those that deny this is to simply show the EXTENT of influence Satan has over EVEN those that 'claim' to follow Christ.

Satan has introduced, (YES, even into the churches), his desire for mankind. He has offered the EXACT same 'spirit' that HE possess. And that 'spririt' is one of 'self'. For Satan desired NOTHING more than to BE God. The ONLY way that he could RECOGNIZE this would BE for US to worship HIM AS GOD HIMSELF. And he IS a rewarder of those that are able to subvert others to THIS VERY SPIRIT.

Satan, regardless of one's desire to deny it, HAS set himself UP in the temple. He HAS obtained MOST of what he desires. And through the fulfilling of the CARNAL nature of men, HAS obtained the WORSHIP that he so desires. For he OFFERS that which those with ITCHING EARS long to hear; That EVERYTHING is OK. That NOTHING really matters but HOW ONE FEELS. That 'pleasure' in this world means MORE than ANYTHING else. And he has manipulated those that have the MOST influence on others into perpetuating this LIE.

So, while MOST 'believe' that they follow the truth, they instead CHOOSE to follow that which is anything but. CHOOSE to follow ANYTHING but. Having their hearts darkened, they refuse to EVEN SEE the TRUTH. And for NOTHING other than the sake of 'self'. For one CANNOT be subverted from the TRUTH unless it is THEIR CHOICE. For we will be judged on; NOT our BEHAVIOR, so much as WHAT'S in our hearts. And we WILL not be held responsible for ANYTHING that we DO NOT CHOOSE.

So, search dilligently for the answer to the question that I have posed. And IF you ARE able to come to an understanding of the TRUE answer, then you WILL have your eyes OPENED and become ABLE to understand even DEEPER Depths of The Word.

MEC

 

[DanR]

Perhaps I'm making this too long and complicated. I'll try again.

...Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Word = Flesh = His = Christ. Therefore:

Word = Christ

 

[unred typo]

OK... I still would like to repeat my silly little question:


Is there a verse that says that God is only ONE God after the birth of his only begotten Son?


There will be a reward for correct answers, not that I have one in mind.... :-D

 

[DanR]

OK... I still would like to repeat my silly little question:

Is there a verse that says that God is only ONE God after the birth of his only begotten Son?

There will be a reward for correct answers, not that I have one in mind.... :-D

Yes, but not one that says 'God is only one God after the birth of his only begotten Son'. However, we can compromise by writing that in the margin of our Bibles beside:

'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.' 1Ti 2:5
'Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.' Jas 2:19

 

[handy]

I know Vic, I'm getting ready to bow out as well. I truly would like to see some valid response to Hebrews 1:8. If there is, then maybe I'll stay in.

I did think of something though that I don't think has been contributed yet:

Many who like to deny the triune nature of God point out that there is no mention of this special nature in the Old Testament. This isn't true. We do see God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, but it's is admittedly somewhat veiled.

Now, many who want to deny the Trinity will jump on this word "veiled" and try to say then that the "veiling" is man's attempt to justify a non-Biblical doctrine.

But, this isn't the case; God Himself chose to speak to us through the prophets in the Old Testament, waiting until His good pleasure to reveal the true nature of the Son that was so well prophesied in ancient times. (Hebrews 1:1-2)

And, I'm sure that if I wanted to, I could delve into the Scriptures to discover why God so chose to reveal Himself in this way. Perhaps someday I shall. Not today though because we have a buckload of snow outside and simple daily tasks such as feeding the critters, getting kids to and from school and even walking out to my freezer in our shed has become a major undertaking. Good ol' global warming! :wink:

Just so y'all know that I'm not just expressing my own humble opinion about God's choosing to speak to us in this way, it's all in Hebrews. Hebrews is truly one of the deepest books in the Bible. I've been studying it for years, and still find significant truths each time I search it again. If you've never studied Hebrews, I exhort you to do so. You will find many reasons why we believe so strongly in the triune nature of God and you will see that Jesus is indeed God.

 

[stovebolts]

1 John 4:8 He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.

St. Augustine does a great work on the Trinity. Here's a few small snipit. I do hope that those against the trinity will Read what St. Augustine has to say.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130108.htm

No other thing, then, is chiefly to be regarded in this inquiry, which we make concerning the Trinity and concerning knowing God, except what is true love, nay, rather what is love. For that is to be called love which is true, otherwise it is desire; and so those who desire are said improperly to love, just as they who love are said improperly to desire. But this is true love, that cleaving to the truth we may live righteously, and so may despise all mortal things in comparison with the love of men, whereby we wish them to live righteously.

“If you see love, you see a Trinity.†In any human act of love there is
the lover, the one loved, and the love between them: three things.

Well, but you will say, I see love, and, as far as I am able, I gaze upon it with my mind, and I believe the Scripture, saying, that "God is love; and he that dwells in love, dwells in God;" but when I see love, I do not see in it the Trinity. Nay, but you see the Trinity if you see love. But if I can I will put you in mind, that you may see that you see it; only let itself be present, that we may be moved by love to something good. Since, when we love love, we love one who loves something, and that on account of this very thing, that he does love something; therefore what does love love, that love itself also may be loved? For that is not love which loves nothing. But if it loves itself it must love something, that it may love itself as love. For as a word indicates something, and indicates also itself, but does not indicate itself to be a word, unless it indicates that it does indicate something; so love also loves indeed itself, but except it love itself as loving something, it loves itself not as love. What therefore does love love, except that which we love with love?

 

[mutzrein]

Naw, just go ahead and respond to Hebrews 1:8. It's message is very clear, very straightforward. Putting into context, the He of the text is God, the Son is Jesus Christ.

I see. Am I to understand that you cannot or will not answer the scripture I asked you to explain?