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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Nephilim
- Thread starter Kathi
- Start date
stovebolts
Member
I don't see the link between your so called half breeds between angels and women and what Lot's daughters did to have offspring.
Lot was fully human, Lot's daughters were fully human. Thus, their children were fully human.
I'm failing to see your connection. Please explain this a bit further would ya?
stovebolts
Member
Man was created in the image and likeness of God.
Angels are referred to as men in the bible.
yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering. Daniel 9:21
Jesus in His per-incarnate form was referred to as the Angel of the Lord.
also -
1 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, "My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.
22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord.
1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. Genesis 18:1-3,22 - 19:1
we see the progression from men to angels in this narrative of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Men are created in the image of God, and likewise angels look like men and are mistaken for men,
as it is written -
Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels. Hebrews 13:12
JLB
It's not personal and certainly not a reference to a believer. Can you not see that this could be used for wicked purpose? That in itself does not convince that it is wrong. That's what I meant but I probably should have said "possible ramifications." A 'pitfall" that is to be avoided.
Part of the problem that we are talking about is called "Jumping to conclusion". It's happening all around us, like if somebody were to insist that my saying that we are supposed to avoid ungodly behavior means that they are behaving in an ungodly way. That's a possible ramification (or pitfall) - from Jumping to conclusion.
You see this, right?
It goes back to this post that I responded to from King James -
In Numbers it says sons of Anak of the Nephilim so we do know that they can breed.
I responded that -
I agree they could breed, but I don't agree that Nephilim, a hybrid being could reproduce.
I believe the only way a giant, Nephilim, are produced is - when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men...
There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Genesis 6:4
I don't see where a hybrid being, or hybrid seed can reproduce. Like a donkey and a horse can produce a mule, the mule can not reproduce another mule.
Likewise a hybrid tomato seed can produce a tomato, but the seed from the tomato is produces can not reproduce.
Maybe there is an exception.
JLB
There's the fact. The Bible speaks of the Anakites (or Anakim) that they were SONS of Anak (a man). Anak refers to the neck and could mean "long neck".
Compare Deut 2:10-11 and Josh 15:13
Then go to the Jewish Encyclopedia and read the article on the Anakim found there:
JE: ANAKIM.
stovebolts
Member
I see your reasoning here, but I do not understand your reasoning and link between what you said here, and the offspring of Lot's daughters. In simple terms, why did you mention Lot and his daughters offspring? What was your purpose and how did it relate to what you've reasoned above?
And what exception are you speaking about? Is your exception related to the Amonites and Moabites as it relates to Nephilim? A simple yes or no would clear this up.
stovebolts
Member
Angels have the form of a man.
The offspring of the daughters of Lot, were produced by their father.
Likewise, I believe the "sons" of Anak were produced by the father of Anak ["sons of God"] the father of the Nephilim, and not by the Nephilim themselves.
JLB
stovebolts
Member
and some Angels are men... we can find scripture to support Son's of God as men, and Son's of God as Angelic beings.
But I asked, what does "Image" mean?
How can we see this "likeness".
How can we identify with it?
By the reasoning you put forth, you state:
Angels are only angelic beings.
Angels have the form of man
Angels are created in the image of God.
Your logic doesn't hold up. Being in the likeness is not the same as the image.
With that logic, God would look like man.
But we know that God is a spirit.
So, to say that Angels are created in the image of God because Angels look like men, is the same as saying that God looks like man because man was created in the image of God. This is simply... well, I think you get my point.
So let us try this again.
In the creation account, what does "Image" mean?
Ok, and Jacob had 12 sons... what's your point? Why use the offspring of the daughters of Lot?
And why does it feel as if you're dodging my questions?
45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." John 1:45
Was Jesus the son of Joseph?
JLB
th1b.taylor
Member
Nephilim
From Where?
Gen 6:1 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them,
Gen 6:2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.
Gen 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. (NASB)
In the Hebrew Bible, the phrase "sons of (the) Elohim" occurs in:
Who were the sons of God in Genesis 6? It is a popular contention today that these beings are members of the angels God created but for this to be true they needed to be sexual beings and from Matthew 22:30, it is safe for us to reason that they are neither male nor female. Another point for our consideration is the very idea of God having anything to do with sin.
Angels are spirit beings and like Father God, have no extension into the Time/Space Continuum He created for us to live in to serve Him. Many will argue, what about Jesus and what about when the angels were with God and had lunch with Abraham? These arguments are usually meant to intimidate and are only effective when Christians fail to read the scriptures while praying and submitting to the will of God.
Always remember that God has no part with sin, okay? The angels that were with Jesus/God (see John 1:1-3) had a body given to them by God, specifically for the purpose of being witnesses to Lott and Abraham as they destroyed the cities of sin. That is not correct, they also were to be witnesses to us in this latter day when we read and study the Word. When we study the passages concerning the rescue of Lott, it is very clear that the angels did not have sex with anyone, nor were they inclined to do so in my opinion. It is not recorded anywhere in the scriptures that such activity between any Spirit Being and a Human.
Another thought, coming from the Rabbis of ancient history is that the Sons of God were the sons of the Godly line of Seth that were still prevailing before the flood. Here we must ask ourselves, can God's people become that corrupt in the time between the Garden and the Noahdic Flood? Consider, Adam and Eve were, likely, not in the Garden for a thousand years, they had one rule to follow and they failed, miserably. Look at the number of professing Homosexual Churches that dot the landscape today, all coming into the light just recently. Consider the Churches favorite sin, Adultery and other sexual sins. I must say that I lean towards this explanation and no matter how much I pray, God has not moved to change my take on this.
A third idea was also taught; These are young rulers and princes. All of this information is available in your public libraries and on the WWW today. I urge you and pray that you study this matter. The New Testament is built on the legs of the Old Testament, a.k.a. The Bible Jesus taught from.
In summary, for any angel to have extension into our Time/Space Continuum, requires God's permission and His creative ability. Now, couple this with the truth that God has the foreknowledge of everything that will ever happen. With these facts being in place you can understand why I say that God will never give any angel a body to sin with.
An argument to this is the idea found with the possession found in Mark 5:1-20. Legion did indeed possess the man but had the man raped a woman, the seed passed, it God blessed it, would not have been a half breed human. Legion possessed the man, they did not become the man. Here again, to sin they need God's hand in the activity and God has no active part with sin.
My prayer is that this old man's article will cause many to study more.
From Where?
Gen 6:1 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them,
Gen 6:2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.
Gen 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. (NASB)
In the Hebrew Bible, the phrase "sons of (the) Elohim" occurs in:
- Gen 6:2 bənê hāʼĕlōhîm (בְנֵי־הָֽאֱלֹהִים) sons of the Elohim.
- Job 1:6 bənê hāʼĕlōhîm (בְּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים) sons of the Elohim.
- Job 38:7 bənê ĕlōhîm (בְּנֵי אֱלֹהִֽים) without the definite article - sons of godly beings.
- Psalm 29:1 bənê ēlîm (בְּנֵי אֵלִים) without the definite article - sons of elim.
Who were the sons of God in Genesis 6? It is a popular contention today that these beings are members of the angels God created but for this to be true they needed to be sexual beings and from Matthew 22:30, it is safe for us to reason that they are neither male nor female. Another point for our consideration is the very idea of God having anything to do with sin.
Angels are spirit beings and like Father God, have no extension into the Time/Space Continuum He created for us to live in to serve Him. Many will argue, what about Jesus and what about when the angels were with God and had lunch with Abraham? These arguments are usually meant to intimidate and are only effective when Christians fail to read the scriptures while praying and submitting to the will of God.
Always remember that God has no part with sin, okay? The angels that were with Jesus/God (see John 1:1-3) had a body given to them by God, specifically for the purpose of being witnesses to Lott and Abraham as they destroyed the cities of sin. That is not correct, they also were to be witnesses to us in this latter day when we read and study the Word. When we study the passages concerning the rescue of Lott, it is very clear that the angels did not have sex with anyone, nor were they inclined to do so in my opinion. It is not recorded anywhere in the scriptures that such activity between any Spirit Being and a Human.
Another thought, coming from the Rabbis of ancient history is that the Sons of God were the sons of the Godly line of Seth that were still prevailing before the flood. Here we must ask ourselves, can God's people become that corrupt in the time between the Garden and the Noahdic Flood? Consider, Adam and Eve were, likely, not in the Garden for a thousand years, they had one rule to follow and they failed, miserably. Look at the number of professing Homosexual Churches that dot the landscape today, all coming into the light just recently. Consider the Churches favorite sin, Adultery and other sexual sins. I must say that I lean towards this explanation and no matter how much I pray, God has not moved to change my take on this.
A third idea was also taught; These are young rulers and princes. All of this information is available in your public libraries and on the WWW today. I urge you and pray that you study this matter. The New Testament is built on the legs of the Old Testament, a.k.a. The Bible Jesus taught from.
In summary, for any angel to have extension into our Time/Space Continuum, requires God's permission and His creative ability. Now, couple this with the truth that God has the foreknowledge of everything that will ever happen. With these facts being in place you can understand why I say that God will never give any angel a body to sin with.
An argument to this is the idea found with the possession found in Mark 5:1-20. Legion did indeed possess the man but had the man raped a woman, the seed passed, it God blessed it, would not have been a half breed human. Legion possessed the man, they did not become the man. Here again, to sin they need God's hand in the activity and God has no active part with sin.
My prayer is that this old man's article will cause many to study more.
Correct Kathi and they are now merged.
Sinthesis
Member
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." Job 1:6-7
yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering. Daniel 9:21
Angels are called the host's of heaven. They can fly.
Wherever they wanted to.
They were unaffected by the flood as they are not human, but had the ability to manifest as human.
That is why they are now confined in chains in hell, for they could go and come as they pleased.
They had continued after the flood to take women for their wives and produce giants.
At some point after the flood, they were confined in chains down in Tartarus.
They are in chains down in Tartarus.
JLB
Yet you are not talking about angels as the host of heaven, instead you are equating the sons of God with fallen angels, and angels only fall when they can no longer fly. Can you site any instance in the bible in which satan or his demons are able to fly? Yet, flying to wherever is not protection from a global flood, which is why Noah brought along birds.
Please provide scripture to show that demons can manifest as human. We know that spirits don't have flesh from Luke 24:39.
When were the fallen angels placed in chains? Is it recorded in the bible? If they are in chains then why are you still wary of nephilim?
th1b.taylor
Member
You have an interesting way of starting a fight but I fail to see any reason to do so. When two people fight, they both loose and intelligence is seldom gained unless you are engaged in mortal combat. I happen to agree with your point and still, I'm offended.
Sinthesis
Member
I fully agree with your second thought, but I also believe the third idea is valid as it is actually just another form of the second thought which has come true at least once as a parallel to the flood story, yet without the complete devastation by flood as God promised through the rainbow. At least that is how I see it when I strip away all the diversionary peculiarities of the characters to focus on the moral aspect of the events.
Sinthesis
Member
I'm sorry you're offended. I know I've offended you before, but here I just want to know what details someone else is willing to accept in order to hold on to an idea that can't be proven right or wrong, yet has troubling spiritual ramifications if promoted as the Christian truth.
A
agua.
Guest
Sparrow this is interesting. Doctrines are formed based upon reasoned application of scripture. OSAS, the many rapture doctrines, etc. So far concerning the Nephilim there has been presented a line of reasoning and the scriptures which lend to this reasoning. So far in opposition to this the refutation is
Matthew 22:30 etc . and the inference from this that angels couldn't reproduce. So can you also say, in fairness, that anyone presenting the opposite view as fact is also a problem ?
Keep up the good work Brother !