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Never Mock God

Drew said:
Greetings Antitox (and others):

However, I think it is abundantly clear that the OP is suggesting that the death of John Lennon, is a consequence of his anti-Christian statements - that if he had not made these statements, he would not have been shot.
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There's are different ways to look at it. One could call it an irony. But I am not a believer who thinks that "coincidences" as most prefer to surmise, are always just coincidences. I believe that God is a little more involved in the scheme of things than your everyday Joe may think.

[quote:3c409]One of the problems with this is that it is a "hindsight" type of inference. Suppose some average guy named Fred is gunned down in the street. If we look back on Fred's life, we will almost certainly find that Fred has said and or done something that is more "mocking of God" than what John Lennon did. It might have been to raise his fist and curse God in a moment of anger, it might have been to cheat on his wife, etc. Using the OP's kind of argument, we can conclude that any premature demise is a consequence of mocking of God. So it makes so sense to single out John Lennon.
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Relative-focus always diagnoses as coincidence and cause/effect.

So, one of the problem of the OPs post is that it tells us nothing useful - nothing that can prescribe our behaviour. If we could reliably know that "God-mocking" brings an early death, no one would live past 15.
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[/quote:3c409]

Oh yes it does. Arrogance is unwise.
Good lesson. :-D
 
antitox said:
So, one of the problem of the OPs post is that it tells us nothing useful - nothing that can prescribe our behaviour. If we could reliably know that "God-mocking" brings an early death, no one would live past 15.
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Oh yes it does. Arrogance is unwise.
Good lesson. :-D
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Drawing the conclusion that "arrogance is unwise" is like concluding that having a birthday of October 17, or having a last name beginning with "P" is correlated with early death. After all, I could list at least the same number of people (as the OP has) who have died early and have been born on Ocotober 17 or have last names that begin with P.

In order to tell us something useful, the OP still needs to show the rate of early demise is higher among the arrogant than it is among a randomly selected subset of the population in general. He has not done so, at least not yet.
 
Drew said:
Drawing the conclusion that "arrogance is unwise" is like concluding that having a birthday of October 17, or having a last name beginning with "P" is correlated with early death. After all, I could list at least the same number of people (as the OP has) who have died early and have been born on Ocotober 17 or have last names that begin with P.

In order to tell us something useful, the OP still needs to show the rate of early demise is higher among the arrogant than it is among a randomly selected subset of the population in general. He has not done so, at least not yet.
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What....a graph or quantified result? A statistitical result for unspiritual thought and coincidental mindset?

This is about a spiritually based outlook that pays regard to rulership from the heavenlies versus just a carnal approach to everything. Either God is real to you and He does what He says He does, or He isn't real.
I choose to consider His effect in this world based upon what He has shown us. You cannot prove what is spiritual or Christians would have proven atheists wrong a long time ago; this is based on faith. If faith has to have your unbelieving assessment to validate it, then it isn't faith at all.
 
antitox said:
What....a graph or quantified result? A statistitical result for unspiritual thought and coincidental mindset?

This is about a spiritually based outlook that pays regard to rulership from the heavenlies versus just a carnal approach to everything. Either God is real to you and He does what He says He does, or He isn't real.
I choose to consider His effect in this world based upon what He has shown us. You cannot prove what is spiritual or Christians would have proven atheists wrong a long time ago; this is based on faith. If faith has to have your unbelieving assessment to validate it, then it isn't faith at all.
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In other words, you have no argument in defence of the OP. One can defend any position with a vague appeal to faith.
 
Drew said:
In other words, you have no argument in defence of the OP. One can defend any position with a vague appeal to faith.
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In other words you are ignoring my point.

My statement said:

You cannot prove what is spiritual or Christians would have proven atheists wrong a long time ago; this is based on faith.
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In other words:

You cannot prove that God did or didn't do anything in this type of situation.
 
antitox said:
You cannot prove that God did or didn't do anything in this type of situation.
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No one has provided a solid defence of the OP. It has been shown by clear application of principles of logic to be speculation and nothing more.

The statement "You cannot prove that God did or didn't do anything in this type of situation" is obviously correct and, ironically, it does damage to the OP (who implies we can indeed infer that God directly or indirectly strikes down those who oppose him). It does no damage to my argument at all. Remember I have never claimed that God did not strike these people down or that He did.

Unless you can show that the rate of early demise is higher among the arrogant than it is among a randomly selected subset of the population in general, then the matter has been settled.
 
Drew said:
antitox said:
You cannot prove that God did or didn't do anything in this type of situation.
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No one has provided a solid defence of the OP. It has been shown by clear application of principles of logic to be speculation and nothing more.

The statement "You cannot prove that God did or didn't do anything in this type of situation" is obviously correct and, ironically, it does damage to the OP (who implies we can indeed infer that God directly or indirectly strikes down those who oppose him). It does no damage to my argument at all. Remember I have never claimed that God did not strike these people down or that He did.

Unless you can show that the rate of early demise is higher among the arrogant than it is among a randomly selected subset of the population in general, then the matter has been settled.
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My point is, and remains, that each case, though they cannot be proven either way, still applies to being wise enough not to be arrogant. That's why I kept emphasizing this.
I do not, and have not claimed that any of the instances were definite in conclusion, except that due to the gravity of it that it would be foolish to make such remarks as those did in the examples. None of this can be cited or assessed by human factors.

I don't see why this is so hard for you to understand. It appears as though you are attempting to construe this a different way.

I maintain that God is not to be mocked.
 
Lyric's Dad said:
Hey, Elvis was a firm believer in the Lord Jesus....
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LOL... yeah, right!

So is the devil a firm believer in Jesus Christ.

:)
 
Gary said:
Lyric's Dad said:
Hey, Elvis was a firm believer in the Lord Jesus....
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LOL... yeah, right!

So is the devil a firm believer in Jesus Christ.

:)
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Well, maybe he didn't believe the same as you. Does that make him a devil?
 
I kinda thought it was pretty clear that with the resurrection of Christ, the rules changed such that God judges us and metes out our rewards and punishments after death, not before. I dunno, maybe my Bible is defective, or something.
 
Oh' you can still be punished while you are living, God ain't dead and He has not changed. He says in the Bible I am the Lord I change not. And yes it is safe to say that some people He does take out of here, you just don't know who.
 
Lewis W said:
Oh' you can still be punished while you are living, God ain't dead and He has not changed. He says in the Bible I am the Lord I change not. And yes it is safe to say that some people He does take out of here, you just don't know who.
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I keep hearing people quote the scripture that says God changes not but then they believe in such a way that contradicts it.

Hmmmm, maybe a topic for another thread.
 
Lewis W said:
Oh' you can still be punished while you are living, God ain't dead and He has not changed. He says in the Bible I am the Lord I change not. And yes it is safe to say that some people He does take out of here, you just don't know who.
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The fact that God hasn't changed doesn't mandate that he has to stick to the same MO. A recurring theme in the NT is that Christ encourages reform and rebirth. God wants everyone to be saved. He wants people to have the opportunity to come to Him and accept salvation. Going around killing people who say stupid things is in direct opposition to this idea.

It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense for some idiots, like Pat Robertson to continue living when they so frequently misuse the Bible's teachings for polemics and personal gain. You may see it as the Lord working in mysterious ways, or something, but that's a cop-out. That's just shorthand for "the facts on the ground strongly disagree with my theory, but I don't feel like admitting it." More likely is that this is simply not the way God works.
 
Just one very important clarification if I may:

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
John 5:23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.
 
ArtGuy said:
You may see it as the Lord working in mysterious ways, or something, but that's a cop-out. That's just shorthand for "the facts on the ground strongly disagree with my theory, but I don't feel like admitting it." More likely is that this is simply not the way God works.
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I have to agree with this remark, if I understand it correctly. The problem with statements like "And yes it is safe to say that some people He does take out of here, you just don't know who" is that they really tell us very little, if anything, of real use. And I say this having respect for Lewis W (the OP), a person who, in my opinion, demonstrates generosity and politeness in his posts.

There is a curious tendency among us Christians to make statements that seemwise and insightful but really do not have much value in the practical matter of directing how we live. If we claim that the arrogant are struck down by God, the supporting evidence is rather thin - so many who are arrogant live to an old age and so many who are not are struck down.

If we argue, as I believe antitox has done, that the lesson is that "arrogance is unwise", one can easily respond with "this is not news". It is fair to say that we do need the bible to tell us this - common sense shows us that having an inaccurate and exagerrated sense of our own importance can sometimes backfire on us.
 
Drew said:
If we argue, as I believe antitox has done, that the lesson is that "arrogance is unwise", one can easily respond with "this is not news". It is fair to say that we do need the bible to tell us this - common sense shows us that having an inaccurate and exagerrated sense of our own importance can sometimes backfire on us.
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If you were paying any attention, you would be aware that what I was saying (now, AGAIN) is that the examples originally given in the OP cannot be proven either way in regard to whether God directly did anything to hurt anyone or not. THEREFORE, it would behoove anyone to refrain from arrogant behavior with God, not knowing how something could turn out. Ya think? Or is this just going to go around in circles for the next 2 or 3 pages of posts because the pacifist minds won't assimilate with any common sense?
 
antitox said:
THEREFORE, it would behoove anyone to refrain from arrogant behavior with God, not knowing how something could turn out. Ya think?
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Or perhaps we should refrain from arrogance and blasphemy simply because they're wrong in and of themselves? Is it really necessary to demonstrate that God rewards mockery with a swift kick in the bum in order to assert that mocking him is wrong and unwise?
 
God either allows a swift kick in the behind, or he does it himself. He is the supreme judge of all, and will allow or handle all that happens to his creation.
 
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