Bible Study New Covenant

[ddubsolo85]

@ Bob10

so what are the theological implications of that ?

By theological implications, do you mean, why is this relevant?

Theologically, this simple fact clarifies for us many of the eschatological questions that confound us. It helps us to deal with pre, mid, and post-tribulation questions, it helps to address what is next to come in terms of prophecy, and many other questions. If our foundational understanding is incorrect, then our conclusions will also be incorrect most likely.

If we know what God plans to do next and we understand where we fit into the picture, it helps us in our walk with God.

God Bless!

 

[Bob10]

As a matter of fact, I say the New Covenant hasn't been implemented at all. I say we're still under the Old Covenant.

Do you keep the Sabbath or Sunday ?

Do you keep any of the biblical holidays, like Passover (1Cor. 5:7-8; 11:23-26) ?

The reason I ask is that some Christians would call these days OT days of worship.

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ Bob10

Although I have a healthy respect for the Sabbath and Passover, I don't feel it's necessary to worship on the Sabbath, or adhere strictly to the Passover. I believe that Christ has fulfilled the law, and the focus now should be Christ.

God Bless!

 

[Raphe]

Which covenant? Where does the Bible say that Gentiles are included in the New Covenant? I can see where Gentiles are included in the Old Covenant, but I can't find any scriptures where Gentiles are included in the New Covenant.

Paul speaks in Romans speaks of wild branches being grafted in, but the covenant was always intended for Gentiles too, going all the way back to Abrahma and God's promise to make him father of many nations - hamon goyim.
The fact that the house of Israel was swallowed up by the Gentiles and they forgot their heritage does not mean that God fogot who they were. Didn't you read Amos 9:8? Doesn't that say anything to you?

Jesus came for the Jews, to give them the New Covenant. They rejected their Messiah, and the Gentiles were then grafted into what the Jews already had... the Old Covenant.

That doesn't matter. Where is the house of Israel? Not in Israel the country as of yet. The Jews represent only the house of Judah. You see, you mix them up. Until the call has gotten into all the Gentile nations for the house of Israel to hear and respond or not, as Jesus SAID that He came not but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the new covenant has not been offered to all Israel, but only rejected by the house of Judah. He will not return to earth and reign in His physical kingdom with them restored together and to the land, which they were promised, until both houses ahave responded and all the Gentiles have came in (Time of the Gentiles fulfilled). Did you read Matthew 15:24 or do you refute it? He said lost sheep of the "house of Israel" and they would hear His voice. This is not the Jews or house of Judah. Evidently you have not yet seen the connection of the "firstborn" of God and the Christians today who call themselves by His name and have heard His voice. God has given us power to become sons of the living God, just as Hosea said Ephraim and the house of Israel would become. None of us know who our ancestors are or the heritage that they had when they were swallowed up into the Gentile nations, but God never for a moment lost track of His sheep and Jesus came to find them. When you speak of the Jews refusing the new covenant, you speak only of the partial hardening of Israel, because only part was hardened and that was the house of Judah or Jews. The house of Israel is still being called out from among the Gentiles, the same as the name of Ephraim means to flourish in captivity. Epraim was firstborn of God (Jer.31:9)and we are the Church of the firstborn (Heb. 12:23). Jesus said He came the first time after that house headed by Israel - the house of Israel - Ephraim. Go back and read about the captivity and the length of it given to both houses in Ez. 4:4-6. The 390 years given to the house of Israel was times seven for unrepentance. Multiply 390 by seven and see that it is much longer than Judahs captivity before coming back to rebuild the temple (Le.26:18). Only the house of Judah returned to rebuild the temple and then to reject Messiah for a season, as that remnant is now coming to Messiah as Messianic Jews. Jews are not all of Israel - only one house of All Israel. The lost sheep of the house of Israel remained in the Gentile nations becoming "Loammi" - not my people, but would become sons of the living God, just as Paul quoted Hosea in 1:9, 10.

Hosea 1:9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God.
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’

Romans 9:25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God."

There is only one fold, and one shepherd. But Gentiles were given the promise of salvation. The Jews were given promises (plural). They were given the promise of salvation as well as a day of rest. They were given the promise of being a nation of kings and priests here on earth.

One is not better than the other, they are just different. Jews will have the New Covenant, Gentiles will reap the benefits of this New Covenant.

You are not discerning the difference between the hosue of Israel and the house of Judah. They cannot be lumped together, nor does the word of God do so. Until they come back together and are reunited as ALL Israel, the Israelite is of the house of Israel who are the lost sheep Jesus said He came to find and is doing so by His Spirit, forming the Ekklesia (Church). Ezekiel 37 foretold that both houses would walk together again before the restoration. Notice this and then the term companions. Those companions are the wild branches Paul speaks of. The stick or rod designates leadership of that house, and Jacob gave the covenant promise of firstborn to Ephraim (Israel)(Gen. 48:18-20). The promise of the sceptre went to Judah (Jews) from where we have Jesus who will always be the King and carry the sceptre (Gen. 49:10), but those who are born again (firstborn, following after the firstborn of many brethren, Jesus - Ro. 8:29) and "sons of the living God", spoken of by Paul and Hosea, have entered into that new covenant which still is to both houses and the grafted in branches. Remember, Paul said to not boast against the natural branches that were cut off because they would be grafted back in - a remnant of both houses. The Gentile nations is where the lost sheep have been hidden and kept from the enemy all these years, and the other brother and sister of loammi, Jezreel and LoRuhamah, where named after terms of discribing the punishment and regermenating to new life of Ephraim and the house of Israel - that although they would be forgotten and scattered into the world, they would be know of God and become "Sons of the Living God". (Hosea 1:9,10 and Ro. 9:25,26)
There is no exclusivity anymore, the door is open to the wild branches, but remember who Jesus said He came back for, and it was not for the house of Judah with its laws of the old covenant. It was a new thing offered to the lost sheep who were called out and to whosoever would follow after the "firstborn" of God - Jesus. You see, even Jesus, though He was a Jew and of the house of Judah, united both houses by being the firstborn of many brethren. The Bible says that Judah would be provoked to jealousy by the double portion given to Ephraim, and it was so back then when they seperated, but is also so today, in order that they too desire to become born again and follow after their Messiah. When both houses are united, as the promise was for the whole of Israel before it was split, they share the covenant promises of "firstborn" and the King of Kings whose sceptre is eternal - two sticks in His hand (Ez. 37:18-23).

Romans 11:25-26 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in: and thus all Israel will be saved....

Romans 11:25 (NLT) I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Some of the Jews have hard hearts, but this will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to Christ.
26 And so all Israel will be saved. Do you remember what the prophets said about this? "A Deliverer will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel from all ungodliness.
27 And then I will keep my covenant with them and take away their sins."

Ezekial 37:16 "And you, son of man, take for yourself one stick and write on it, ‘For Judah and for the sons of Israel, his companions’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.’
17 "Then join them for yourself one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.
18 "When the sons of your people speak to you saying, ‘Will you not declare to us what you mean by these?’
19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand."‘
20 "The sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
21 "Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms.
23 "They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.

Jer 31:Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.

Here is another characteristic of Ephraim and the covenant promise passed on to him through Jacob whose name was also Israel. Ephraim would be a mighty warrior tribe. Who today is a mighty warrior tribe? And the Bible says of Ephraim in Hosea that he would dwell in a pleasant ploace and take his children to the murderer. Doesn't that sound like America? What name of God does america call itself by? Have we taken our children to the murderer? Have we not not pretected our brother Judah in the nation of Israel today? They have not other friend in the world than their brother Ephraim, but Ephraim is ignorant of his heritage as Judah is ignorant of his Messiah. They still fight between themselves as any who has any dealings with Messianics would know. The jealousy still exists; Notice the verses.

Hosea 9:13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

Zech.9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. 14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah will walk with the house of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers as an inheritance.

Isaiah 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah,and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

Jer 30:2,3 Thus says Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel, 'write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book. For behold, days are coming,' declares Yahweh, 'when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.' Yahweh says, 'I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it

 

[Bob10]

ddubsolo85

I believe that Christ has fulfilled the law, and the focus now should be Christ.

1) Christ fulfilled the resurrection by rising on sunday, so why do christians still keep sunday ?


2) Colossians 2:16-17 says the Sabbath and holy days are still a shadow. A shadow precedes the main event. A shadow is still observed.

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ Raphe

Paul speaks in Romans speaks of wild branches being grafted in, but the covenant was always intended for Gentiles too, going all the way back to Abrahma and God's promise to make him father of many nations - hamon goyim.

If you read Gen. 12:1-3 closely, you'll see that Gentiles were promised to be blessed through the Jews. However, the Jews were promised to be a great nation. Gentiles have no part in that. The blessing shared by Jews and Gentiles is salvation, which came under the Old Covenant.

The fact that the house of Israel was swallowed up by the Gentiles and they forgot their heritage does not mean that God fogot who they were. Didn't you read Amos 9:8? Doesn't that say anything to you?

What is it that you think Amos 9:8 is saying? Do you think it means that God destroyed the Jews? Please express what you think this text means in context with all of scripture.
Quote:
Jesus came for the Jews, to give them the New Covenant. They rejected their Messiah, and the Gentiles were then grafted into what the Jews already had... the Old Covenant.

That doesn't matter.

Excuse me? This is the main point I'm trying to convey to you. Do you agree or disagree with this point?

Where is the house of Israel? Not in Israel the country as of yet. The Jews represent only the house of Judah. You see, you mix them up.

And what do you base this ("The Jews represent only the house of Judah") on? What scripture? What writing? What proof? Am I just to take your word on that? The New Covenant was given to both the house of Israel AND the house of Judah, so I'm not sure where you're going with this statement.

Until the call has gotten into all the Gentile nations for the house of Israel to hear and respond or not, as Jesus SAID that He came not but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the new covenant has not been offered to all Israel, but only rejected by the house of Judah.

First, I don't think you understand that the house of Israel can refer to the whole house of Israel, which includes both Israel and Judah (i.e. Eze 37:11).

Second, you seem to be saying that those Gentiles that come to Christ are actually Israel. Is that what you're saying? Please clarify.

He will not return to earth and reign in His physical kingdom with them restored together and to the land, which they were promised, until both houses ahave responded and all the Gentiles have came in (Time of the Gentiles fulfilled). Did you read Matthew 15:24 or do you refute it? He said lost sheep of the "house of Israel" and they would hear His voice. This is not the Jews or house of Judah.

I want to make sure I hear you correctly. Are you saying that when Jesus says he came only for the house of Israel, he was including Gentiles? Israel in this instance (Mt 15:24) is not the Jews? Is that what you're saying? And again I see you saying that Judah isn't a part of Israel. Am I understanding you correctly?

Evidently you have not yet seen the connection of the "firstborn" of God and the Christians today who call themselves by His name and have heard His voice. God has given us power to become sons of the living God, just as Hosea said Ephraim and the house of Israel would become. None of us know who our ancestors are or the heritage that they had when they were swallowed up into the Gentile nations, but God never for a moment lost track of His sheep and Jesus came to find them. When you speak of the Jews refusing the new covenant, you speak only of the partial hardening of Israel, because only part was hardened and that was the house of Judah or Jews.

What scripture?

The house of Israel is still being called out from among the Gentiles, the same as the name of Ephraim means to flourish in captivity. Epraim was firstborn of God (Jer.31:9)and we are the Church of the firstborn (Heb. 12:23). Jesus said He came the first time after that house headed by Israel - the house of Israel - Ephraim. Go back and read about the captivity and the length of it given to both houses in Ez. 4:4-6. The 390 years given to the house of Israel was times seven for unrepentance. Multiply 390 by seven and see that it is much longer than Judahs captivity before coming back to rebuild the temple (Le.26:18). Only the house of Judah returned to rebuild the temple and then to reject Messiah for a season, as that remnant is now coming to Messiah as Messianic Jews.

How do you distinguish between the Jews who are Israel and those who are Judah? What do you base that on?

Jews are not all of Israel - only one house of All Israel. The lost sheep of the house of Israel remained in the Gentile nations becoming "Loammi" - not my people, but would become sons of the living God, just as Paul quoted Hosea in 1:9, 10.

Hosea 1:9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God.
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’

Romans 9:25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God."

So, are you saying that you are not a Gentile, but in fact Jewish? Could you clearly explain who you see as Jews, who you see as Israel, and who you see as Judah?

You are not discerning the difference between the hosue of Israel and the house of Judah. They cannot be lumped together, nor does the word of God do so. Until they come back together and are reunited as ALL Israel, the Israelite is of the house of Israel who are the lost sheep Jesus said He came to find and is doing so by His Spirit, forming the Ekklesia (Church).

So, Judah is not a part of the church. That would be all Israel, is that what you're saying? Then who/where is Judah? And what in the Bible tells you about who is one or the other at this time?

Ezekiel 37 foretold that both houses would walk together again before the restoration. Notice this and then the term companions. Those companions are the wild branches Paul speaks of. The stick or rod designates leadership of that house, and Jacob gave the covenant promise of firstborn to Ephraim (Israel)(Gen. 48:18-20). The promise of the sceptre went to Judah (Jews) from where we have Jesus who will always be the King and carry the sceptre (Gen. 49:10), but those who are born again (firstborn, following after the firstborn of many brethren, Jesus - Ro. 8:29) and "sons of the living God", spoken of by Paul and Hosea, have entered into that new covenant which still is to both houses and the grafted in branches.

You said "entered into that new covenant". Where does it say the new covenant has begun? And where does the Bible say anything about "grafted in branches" being a part of the new covenant?

Remember, Paul said to not boast against the natural branches that were cut off because they would be grafted back in - a remnant of both houses. The Gentile nations is where the lost sheep have been hidden and kept from the enemy all these years, and the other brother and sister of loammi, Jezreel and LoRuhamah, where named after terms of discribing the punishment and regermenating to new life of Ephraim and the house of Israel - that although they would be forgotten and scattered into the world, they would be know of God and become "Sons of the Living God". (Hosea 1:9,10 and Ro. 9:25,26)
There is no exclusivity anymore, the door is open to the wild branches, but remember who Jesus said He came back for, and it was not for the house of Judah with its laws of the old covenant.

So, the law doesn't/didn't apply to the house of Israel?

It was a new thing offered to the lost sheep who were called out and to whosoever would follow after the "firstborn" of God - Jesus. You see, even Jesus, though He was a Jew and of the house of Judah, united both houses by being the firstborn of many brethren. The Bible says that Judah would be provoked to jealousy by the double portion given to Ephraim, and it was so back then when they seperated, but is also so today, in order that they too desire to become born again and follow after their Messiah. When both houses are united, as the promise was for the whole of Israel before it was split, they share the covenant promises of "firstborn" and the King of Kings whose sceptre is eternal - two sticks in His hand (Ez. 37:18-23).

How do these two verses fit into what you're saying?

Psa 78:67 Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:
Psa 78:68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

Romans 11:25-26 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in: and thus all Israel will be saved....

Romans 11:25 (NLT) I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Some of the Jews have hard hearts, but this will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to Christ.
26 And so all Israel will be saved. Do you remember what the prophets said about this? "A Deliverer will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel from all ungodliness.
27 And then I will keep my covenant with them and take away their sins."

Ezekial 37:16 "And you, son of man, take for yourself one stick and write on it, ‘For Judah and for the sons of Israel, his companions’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.’
17 "Then join them for yourself one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.
18 "When the sons of your people speak to you saying, ‘Will you not declare to us what you mean by these?’
19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand."‘
20 "The sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
21 "Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms.
23 "They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.

Jer 31:Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.

Do these scriptures speak of both Jews and Gentiles, or just Jews?

Here is another characteristic of Ephraim and the covenant promise passed on to him through Jacob whose name was also Israel. Ephraim would be a mighty warrior tribe. Who today is a mighty warrior tribe? And the Bible says of Ephraim in Hosea that he would dwell in a pleasant ploace and take his children to the murderer. Doesn't that sound like America? What name of God does america call itself by? Have we taken our children to the murderer? Have we not not pretected our brother Judah in the nation of Israel today? They have not other friend in the world than their brother Ephraim, but Ephraim is ignorant of his heritage as Judah is ignorant of his Messiah. They still fight between themselves as any who has any dealings with Messianics would know. The jealousy still exists; Notice the verses.

Big problem: Ephraim is Jewish, while America is a Gentile nation born out of England, which was born out of the Roman Empire. How do you reconcile that?

Hosea 9:13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

Zech.9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. 14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah will walk with the house of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers as an inheritance.

Isaiah 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah,and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

Jer 30:2,3 Thus says Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel, 'write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book. For behold, days are coming,' declares Yahweh, 'when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.' Yahweh says, 'I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it

What would that have to do with a Gentile nation such as America?

God Bless!

 

[Bob10]

ddubsolo85

If you read Gen. 12:1-3 closely, you'll see that Gentiles were promised to be blessed through the Jews. However, the Jews were promised to be a great nation.

Joseph had two sons -- Manasseh and Ephraim. Joseph's father, Jacob (Israel) gave that Birthright promise to Manasseh and Ephraim (Gen 48:14-20) and 1Chronicles 5:1-2.

Manasseh was to be a great nation, and the younger Ephraim was to be even greater: his seed was to become a "multitude of nations", a commonwealth of nations (Gen 48:19).


Israel said:
Your two sons born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt are now mine. Ephraim and Manasseh belong to me just as Reuben and Simeon do -- Gen 48:5.


Israel said:
The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth --Gen 48:16.

http://www.reluctant-messenger.com/HWA/ ... /index.htm

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ Bob10

You've listed the key names: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

That is the key to being Jewish. All that are born under these three names constitute the Jews. That would include Ephraim and Manasseh.

That would EXCLUDE all Gentiles. That is the reason Ishmael, Abraham's son, is eliminated from being of Jewish descent. Gentiles could fall under Abraham, but be eliminated from being Jewish.

No matter how you slice it, America is a Gentile nation born out of the Roman Empire. This is an undisputed fact, wouldn't you agree? How then do you associate Ephraim with America? Was Ephraim somehow imported into America? And how is it that Gentile converts in America are all of a sudden Jewish, and of Ephraim? I don't see how you (or Raphe) make such a connection.

God Bless!

 

[Bob10]

ddubsolo85

you do know the ancient nation of Israel split into two seperate political entities (kingdoms) after Solomon died. Most Bibles show this with their maps at the back of any Bible.

Solomon's son Rehoboam could not hold the nation together (1 kings 12).

The Ten tribes in the north had Samaria as their capital city.

And Levi, Judah (Jews) and some of Benjamin in the south; Jerusalem was their capital city.

In the Bible, the Northern Tribes are called the House of Israel.

The Southern Tribes are called the House of Judah. (reading Kings and Chronicles will verify this).


The first time the word "jews" is mentioned in the Bible, the Jews are at war with Israel (2 Kings 16:6).

http://www.reluctant-messenger.com/HWA/ ... pter6.html --
Children Of Israel Become Two Nations

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ Bob10

you do know the ancient nation of Israel split into two seperate political entities (kingdoms) after Solomon died. Most Bibles show this with their maps at the back of any Bible.

Yes, I'm well aware that the nation of Israel was divided. However, BOTH tribes constitute the entire nation of Israel, as BOTH tribes are descendants of Abraham, Isaaac, and Jacob.

Solomon's son Rehoboam could not hold the nation together (1 kings 12).

The Ten tribes in the north had Samaria as their capital city.

And Levi, Judah (Jews) and some of Benjamin in the south; Jerusalem was their capital city.

In the Bible, the Northern Tribes are called the House of Israel.

The Southern Tribes are called the House of Judah. (reading Kings and Chronicles will verify this).


The first time the word "jews" is mentioned in the Bible, the Jews are at war with Israel (2 Kings 16:6).

Then you'll have to explain to me how Levites are referred to as Jews (Jn. 1:19, Acts 25:2,15,...). The word "Jews" is generic for all tribes of Israel, including both Israel and Judah in the Bible. All tribes are present when Jesus is there, there are no lost tribes at that time. This is clearly apparent throughout the New Testament.

God Bless!

 

[Bob10]

Hi, ddubsolo85 --

The word "Jews" is generic for all tribes of Israel, including both Israel and Judah in the Bible.

I can't see that after reading 2 Kings 16:6 --- (vs 5) King of Syria and the King of ISRAEL came up to Jerusalem to fight King Ahaz, King of JUDAH --- the JEWS were at war with the northern tribe of Israel.

All tribes are present when Jesus is there, there are no lost tribes at that time. This is clearly apparent throughout the New Testament.

Matt
10:5
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

******************************************************


In the years 721-718 B.C., the house of Israel was conquered and its people were soon driven out of their own land - out of their homes and cities - and carried captives to Assyria, on the southern shores of the Caspian Sea! And then . . . LOST FROM VIEW.

"Therefore the Eternal was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only" (II Kings 17:18).


The Eternal removed who? Israel. It is Israel which was removed and driven from the Eternal's sight until they became lost from view.
Who was left? Judah ONLY - only the Jews! Israel was now gone. They became known as the LOST Ten Tribes and are so designated today.

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ Bob10

Quote:
The word "Jews" is generic for all tribes of Israel, including both Israel and Judah in the Bible.

I can't see that after reading 2 Kings 16:6 --- (vs 5) King of Syria and the King of ISRAEL came up to Jerusalem to fight King Ahaz, King of JUDAH --- the JEWS were at war with the northern tribe of Israel.

There's no question that there was a split between the north and south. But that doesn't disqualify them from being who they are. They are of the same kind. They are still who they are, sons of Jacob. It's no different than separating twins at birth in that no matter where they are, they will still be twin brothers. In the same way, both Israel and Judah are Jewish.

Quote:
All tribes are present when Jesus is there, there are no lost tribes at that time. This is clearly apparent throughout the New Testament.

Matt
10:5
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Could you be suggesting that Jesus came back and neglected even His own tribe, the very tribe He was born of? Are you suggesting that Jesus came back for Israel, and neglected Judah? They are not Gentiles, nor are they Samaritans. So if they're not the house of Israel, where do they fit into this scenario?

I don't believe it's even logical that Judah isn't included in the house of Israel. When He says the house of Israel, He's speaking of the house of Jacob, which is inclusive of all of Jacob's sons. That would include Judah.

******************************************************

In the years 721-718 B.C., the house of Israel was conquered and its people were soon driven out of their own land - out of their homes and cities - and carried captives to Assyria, on the southern shores of the Caspian Sea! And then . . . LOST FROM VIEW.

"Therefore the Eternal was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only" (II Kings 17:18).

The Eternal removed who? Israel. It is Israel which was removed and driven from the Eternal's sight until they became lost from view.
Who was left? Judah ONLY - only the Jews! Israel was now gone. They became known as the LOST Ten Tribes and are so designated today.

If that's the case, then again I ask, what were the Levites doing with Jesus? How could they possibly be there if they're lost? How could there be priests? It just doesn't add up. You didn't address this point at all.

By the way, I'm enjoying the conversation, but isn't it a bit off of the topic? How does this relate to the New Covenant? Are you leading this somewhere that ties in? If not, I'd be glad to speak about this in another forum. Please let me know.

God Bless!

 

[Bob10]

Hi, ddubsolo85

Some times these threads do seem to have a life of their own: the topics keep evolving.

Although I have a healthy respect for the Sabbath and Passover, I don't feel it's necessary to worship on the Sabbath, or adhere strictly to the Passover. I believe that Christ has fulfilled the law, and the focus now should be Christ.

"the appointed times" are all about Christ -- His life, His work, His ministry.



The fact that Paul expected Gentiles to keep the law is demonstrated in many scriptures throughout the book of Romans (e.g. Rom. 3:31; 7:12, 22; etc.).

Romans 2:25-29 is especially interesting and direct, though often overlooked.

Here uncircumcised Gentiles are admonished to be circumcised of the heart (v. 29) and to become Jews inwardly by keeping "the righteousness of the law" (v. 26) and by fulfilling the law (v. 27). (Obviously Paul could not have meant the full Sinaitic Covenant in his use of the term "law" here, since circumcision was a part of the law.) Only with God's Holy Spirit, through Christ, can a human being fulfill the righteousness of the law (Rom. 8:4) and "delight in the law of God after the inward man" (Rom. 7:22).

 

[Bob10]

Daniel, in his prayer to the LORD, makes an allusion to the Northern tribes that had gone into captivity a hundred years before:


Daniel
9:7
O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ Bob10

"the appointed times" are all about Christ -- His life, His work, His ministry.

The fact that Paul expected Gentiles to keep the law is demonstrated in many scriptures throughout the book of Romans (e.g. Rom. 3:31; 7:12, 22; etc.).

Romans 2:25-29 is especially interesting and direct, though often overlooked.

Here uncircumcised Gentiles are admonished to be circumcised of the heart (v. 29) and to become Jews inwardly by keeping "the righteousness of the law" (v. 26) and by fulfilling the law (v. 27).

No, I disagree with you. Paul is admonishing Gentiles to accept salvation, which involves the circumcision of the heart. This promise of salvation was made long ago to Abraham under the Old Covenant. Nowhere does it speak of Gentiles becoming Jews. That is not a part of the circumcision of the heart.

(Obviously Paul could not have meant the full Sinaitic Covenant in his use of the term "law" here, since circumcision was a part of the law.)

Circumcision, physical circumcision done by man, was a "sign" of the true circumcision. The true circumcision has always only been performed by God, and it has always of the heart. The outward sign has always only been a sign, similar to water baptism.

Only with God's Holy Spirit, through Christ, can a human being fulfill the righteousness of the law (Rom. 8:4) and "delight in the law of God after the inward man" (Rom. 7:22).

Agreed. And the receiving of the Holy Spirit is directly related to the circumcision of the heart. There is no salvation without the both of these.

God Bless!

 

[Bob10]

Nowhere does it speak of Gentiles becoming Jews.

Paul seems to say that circumcision of the heart makes one a Jew inwardly -----

Romans
2:28
A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.

29
No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit,

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ Bob10

Quote:
Nowhere does it speak of Gentiles becoming Jews.

Paul seems to say that circumcision of the heart makes one a Jew inwardly -----

Romans
2:28
A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.

29
No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit,

Before you come to this conclusion regarding circumcision of the heart, you first must deal with the issue of Gentiles becoming Jews. This just isn't written anywhere in the Bible. Jews are Jews, and Gentiles are Gentiles. There are NO examples of one becoming another. There is also no reason for one to become another.

Look closely at Rom 2:28 (your version). If one is ONLY a Jew outwardly, he is not what God considers a Jew. But for one to be a Jew, one must be born a Jew. If you're not born a Jew, you're not even eligible to be a Jew! There are 12 tribes, and one must be of those twelve tribes in order to be a Jew. There is no other way. All others outside of these twelve tribes are Gentiles.

Paul does not say that circumcision of the heart makes one a Jew. That is not what he says. He is speaking about what makes a Jew a Jew. Besides, on an issue as critical as a Gentile becoming a Jew, it would be written throughout the Bible, as you can find critical items written over and over throughout the Bible ("Line upon line, precept upon precept..." Isa 28).

Therefore, we just can't make this HUGE assumption that Gentiles become Jews. It would change the entire essence of the Word of God.

God Bless!

 

[Bob10]

Paul does not say that circumcision of the heart makes one a Jew.

I'm talking about being spiritual Israelites -- spiritual Jews

Gal. (New King James Version)
3:29
And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



3:29 (New American Standard Bible)
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.


3:29 (New Revised Standard Version)
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise.

 

[ddubsolo85]

@ Bob10

I'm talking about being spiritual Israelites -- spiritual Jews

Yes, spiritual JEWS, not spiritual Gentiles. There is a difference. The difference is that these Jews were Jewish before they became spiritual Jews. There are spiritual Jews, and there are spiritual Gentiles. One is no more spiritual than the other, one is no more saved than the other. BOTH Jew and Gentile are in Christ.

If what you're saying is true, then everyone is Jewish and there are no Gentiles in Christ. I don't believe that's what the Bible is saying. Do you?

Gal. (New King James Version)
3:29
And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Yes, Abraham's seed. Abraham is the father of many nations. But the Jews are from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Being from Abraham's seed DOES NOT make one Jewish! It takes being from all three; Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in order to be Jewish. If it took just being from Abraham, then Ishmael would be Jewish. Obviously that's not the case.

3:29 (New American Standard Bible)
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

3:29 (New Revised Standard Version)
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise.

Now this is very interesting. Notice that in Gal 3:16 there are PROMISES (plural) given to Abraham's seed. But if you look closely at the scripture you list, it says PROMISE (singular). The significance is that the PROMISE (singular) is for all, both Jew and Gentile. Yet, the PROMISES (plural) are for the Jews only.

There is a difference between what was given to the Jews and what was given to the Gentiles. I don't believe one is better than the other, as salvation in Christ is the best anyone can have, but they are different. The Jews have a different walk with God than us Gentiles. Paul in Galatians is pointing out that difference.

God Bless!