New guy intro

[bluegirl]

Sorry for that long title. Just wanted to introduce myself before I start asking questions and causing a ruckus. Let's get down to the nitty-gritty. I'm an unbeliever who loves to study the bible but from a historical/critical perspective. By that I mean that I really want to know what Jesus REALLY said and did. I was raised Christian but I lost my faith once I became interested in the Bible and began reading it seriously. On one hand, I wish I could be a Christian. It provides somewhat of a "unified theory" in which you can explain all things in life. However, I also love the fact that I don't have the answers to everything and I have a lifetime to search out those answers without the constraints of dogmatism that I think all religions can't help but to create.
I look forward to respectful and enlightening discussions about God, the Bible, philosophy etc. with those whom undoubtedly are more knowledgeable then myself.

Jonathan

The problem with theories is that they involve human logic, instead of Jesus's guiding us. Think of genesis. The tree of knowledge, the sin of pride. Man falls because he thinks he can do something by his own power, on his own steam, PRIDE. I know where you are coming from. I was there, I taught critical theory and philosophy at a university. But the problem with those is that they rely on human faculties. As an experiment, try to imagine letting go of the human faculties, and all its branches of 'knowledge', and instead asking JESUS, the truth, the light, the way, to be your guide. Dogmatism would be to hold to a dogma. But I argue that dogmatism is pride, a form of it anyway, in which one knows best and sticks to a rote knowledge. We can never be so 'comfortable' however if we are christians, because it means being in a boat without oars, letting God do the rowing. It's therefore a leap of faith, of admitting we do not know the truth, more Socratic than it would seem at first. To say "I know nothing". The addition for the Christian is that Jesus God, our Friend, does know and will help us and keep us safe and teach us. The law is LOVE. Knowledge is not about love, it's accquisitive, it's controllling, dogmatic, greedy, argumentative, contentious. I am giving you these things as suggestions. I am new here myself and have been an academic and have seen these issues from MANY perspectives. In the end JESUS is the most compelling and beautiful reality for me, He is LOVE, He is God, He is the inner teacher.

 

[bluegirl]

Thanks for the warm welcome and desire to understand where I'm coming from. I'll try t
1. There are many barbaric passages in the OT that I believe are impossible to explain away. For example, the All Perfect Creator of the Universe would not tell us it's OK to beat our slaves as long as they are not bedridden for more than two days. He would also not tell us that the punishment for a rapist is that he must marry his victim and pay her Father 50 shekels. This leads me to believe it's more likely the Bible was written by flawed men rather than being inspired by God.

I was talking to a friend about this recently. It's a new age thing that God of course SHOULD never do anything evil. And this is judged as to what evil is by human logic, moral standards as set us by us, etc. Well even in the NT God gives delusions, the reprobate mind to sinners. God is the creator and everything he does is correct and right, even when it appears 'evil' to us. The Old Testament actions of God when studied carefully in context are mostly centered around the idolatry and evil disobedience of man to God's word, the unbelieving of man. We as humans with finite capacities may not be able to fully understand everything God did or does but we must accept that not all are saved. Some are prideful and refuse to see the Lord is God. This does not mean that God does not weep over creation and that he does not wish for man to be saved. But in giving us the free will to accept His word or not, man is also free to walk away from God. God does punish man. How and why God allowed certain things historically in man's infancy, I myself do not fully understand. I do know that Jesus came and when he did he made a NEW covenant, whose law is LOVE.

2. The many historical errors and contradictions in the NT lead me to believe that the Bible was not inspired by God.

Perhaps the error is in our understanding, an understanding that is finite and human. Just a thought for you.

4. I am not sure we can know exactly what Jesus said because of the way in which the gospel transpired. Fore example, the earliest Gospel is Mark, written in Greek but the disciples spoke Aramaic. Mark wasn't written for 30 years after Jesus' death and the earliest manuscript we have is 150 years after the death of Jesus. How can this situation allow for accuracy in transmission of the words and deeds of Jesus?

We can know because once we accept Jesus, He teaches us, and shows us. (And that is about as empirical as it gets!) Direct 'experience!' Yea! We do not have to rely on human logic - abstractions of reason - to verify the Lord. We can experience His love and through our reading of the Word, learn from him. We do not need to rely on human 'teachers' or experts or authority figures. God speaks to and loves each of us directly. Amen!!!!

 

[Jonathan]

The problem with theories is that they involve human logic, instead of Jesus's guiding us. Think of genesis. The tree of knowledge, the sin of pride. Man falls because he thinks he can do something by his own power, on his own steam, PRIDE. I know where you are coming from. I was there, I taught critical theory and philosophy at a university. But the problem with those is that they rely on human faculties. As an experiment, try to imagine letting go of the human faculties, and all its branches of 'knowledge', and instead asking JESUS, the truth, the light, the way, to be your guide. Dogmatism would be to hold to a dogma. But I argue that dogmatism is pride, a form of it anyway, in which one knows best and sticks to a rote knowledge. We can never be so 'comfortable' however if we are christians, because it means being in a boat without oars, letting God do the rowing. It's therefore a leap of faith, of admitting we do not know the truth, more Socratic than it would seem at first. To say "I know nothing". The addition for the Christian is that Jesus God, our Friend, does know and will help us and keep us safe and teach us. The law is LOVE. Knowledge is not about love, it's accquisitive, it's controllling, dogmatic, greedy, argumentative, contentious. I am giving you these things as suggestions. I am new here myself and have been an academic and have seen these issues from MANY perspectives. In the end JESUS is the most compelling and beautiful reality for me, He is LOVE, He is God, He is the inner teacher.

Firstly, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my entry. I think your are saying we should distrust logic and our faculties but that is precisely what you are using to formulate your argument. I think our human logic, as you put it, is a wonderful gift that our Creator has made us with that has allowed us to discover the wonders of the creation. Why should we set it aside? Another problem with this argument is that the Mormon could use it just as easily, and they do. They implore non-believers to read the book of Mormon and to wait for the warm feeling (or whatever they call it) from the holy spirit that confirms the authenticity of the text. Now, if the Mormons would only apply human logic to the analysis of their text and a dose of higher criticism the claims of Joseph Smith would be seen for what they are, complete fabrication.
All that being said, I have asked Jesus for truth even before I started seriously reading the bible and books written by moderate and critical scholars. I remember praying to each member of the trinity for Truth and guidance as I was starting to have philosophical doubts about my Christian faith. I told God I would accept the truth no matter what it was and do His will and I prayed for these things to be revealed to me over and over and over. I heard/felt nothing.

 

[Jonathan]

I was talking to a friend about this recently. It's a new age thing that God of course SHOULD never do anything evil. And this is judged as to what evil is by human logic, moral standards as set us by us, etc. Well even in the NT God gives delusions, the reprobate mind to sinners. God is the creator and everything he does is correct and right, even when it appears 'evil' to us. The Old Testament actions of God when studied carefully in context are mostly centered around the idolatry and evil disobedience of man to God's word, the unbelieving of man. We as humans with finite capacities may not be able to fully understand everything God did or does but we must accept that not all are saved. Some are prideful and refuse to see the Lord is God. This does not mean that God does not weep over creation and that he does not wish for man to be saved. But in giving us the free will to accept His word or not, man is also free to walk away from God. God does punish man. How and why God allowed certain things historically in man's infancy, I myself do not fully understand. I do know that Jesus came and when he did he made a NEW covenant, whose law is LOVE.

I always find it very interesting when believers respond to the genocide and atrocities in the OT by saying that God can do whatever he wants so that makes it moral or acceptable. I think it's a misunderstanding of the issue. You see, when I read the "terror" passages in the OT I am led to believe that it's impossible that the All Perfect Creator of the Universe could have demanded people to do such things. So, I'm not saying that what God told the Israelites to do is immoral, I'm saying it's impossible that God would have commanded such things.



Perhaps the error is in our understanding, an understanding that is finite and human. Just a thought for you.

Well, I think a lot of the errors can best be explained through the understanding that the bible is man-made. That solves more problems than it creates as opposed to the belief in inerrancy and trying to harmonize errors.

We can know because once we accept Jesus, He teaches us, and shows us. (And that is about as empirical as it gets!) Direct 'experience!' Yea! We do not have to rely on human logic - abstractions of reason - to verify the Lord. We can experience His love and through our reading of the Word, learn from him. We do not need to rely on human 'teachers' or experts or authority figures. God speaks to and loves each of us directly. Amen!!!!

 

[Jonathan]

Dang, screwed up my response to bluegirl. Sorry about that, I am a luddite.

 

[Jonathan]

Hi Jonathan, welcome, glad to have you.

I'm just curious as to what your definition of a Christian is. I'm hearing more and more statements made that are along the same lines as yours. Raised in the church or formerly in church fellowship, study the Bible, believe in God, looking for answers, etc. That is why I am curious about it.

Deborah, I hate to get into the business of defining who and what a Christian is but I guess a Christian is someone who believes in the apostles creed.

 

[Cturtle]

Firstly, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my entry. I think your are saying we should distrust logic and our faculties but that is precisely what you are using to formulate your argument. I think our human logic, as you put it, is a wonderful gift that our Creator has made us with that has allowed us to discover the wonders of the creation. Why should we set it aside? Another problem with this argument is that the Mormon could use it just as easily, and they do. They implore non-believers to read the book of Mormon and to wait for the warm feeling (or whatever they call it) from the holy spirit that confirms the authenticity of the text. Now, if the Mormons would only apply human logic to the analysis of their text and a dose of higher criticism the claims of Joseph Smith would be seen for what they are, complete fabrication.
All that being said, I have asked Jesus for truth even before I started seriously reading the bible and books written by moderate and critical scholars. I remember praying to each member of the trinity for Truth and guidance as I was starting to have philosophical doubts about my Christian faith. I told God I would accept the truth no matter what it was and do His will and I prayed for these things to be revealed to me over and over and over. I heard/felt nothing.

Just a thought Jonathan. Faith is not a feeling. It's total and complete trust that what Jesus said is true. And complete trust that God loves us so much that He sent His only Son to be born of a virgin, and to be the sinless sacrifice for our sins. You have to make the choice to believe that if God says in His Word, that He will reveal Himself to you, that He will. And then you just have to wait, but you also have to be open to receive.
If you are reading critical scholars, you could be unintentionally closing your mind to the things of God. The Bible says that when we seek Him with our whole heart, He will be found by us.
May the Lord our God make Himself very real to you!

 

[bluegirl]

Dang, screwed up my response to bluegirl. Sorry about that, I am a luddite.

How did you screw it up? I am getting ready to reply to your original answer. You are right in a way but keep in mind I do not object to logic, just saying that human logic has limits so why not submit to Jesus and let him teach me? His divine logic is surely better than my human version! I will write more tomorrow and also about Mormon things I have some comments

 

[bluegirl]

Jonathan, I wanted to respond about Mormonism but I don't think this is the thread for it. Rather than type in my response here, I attach a piece I had written that I presented to my students a few semesters ago when I was still teaching. After the presentation we discussed what I said with question and answer. Most of my students were Catholic but whenever I taught them Christian topics I avoided Catholic themes, telling them I was no theologian. I was therefore able for the most part to discuss Christian themes that were in common and avoid problems between my Christian and my Catholic students (and this was in a Catholic University). My Christian students who were not Catholic were very appreciative of me in this regard. I'll attach the presentation I gave them on Mormonism in lieu of saying more in this post. I hope it helps you with your questions about Mormonism and what I think are problems with it. It's best to compare what the Mormons think to what the bible says in your bible study; then its startlingly clear how misguided the Mormon view is. I wrote this 3 years ago, so forgive any areas that could stand review/expansion/clarification. The reason I gave the presentation to begin with is that some of my students were drawn to Mormonism and had questions and I realized I knew nothing about. So I proceeded over one weekend to do some intensive study. Then took the next lecture day to address this with them in class. Since it was a presentation, it's not footnoted or in the form of a publishable academic paper. It's simply an informal explanation for the purpose of discussion with my students at that time.

 

[quinntar]

Sorry for that long title. Just wanted to introduce myself before I start asking questions and causing a ruckus. Let's get down to the nitty-gritty. I'm an unbeliever who loves to study the bible but from a historical/critical perspective. By that I mean that I really want to know what Jesus REALLY said and did. I was raised Christian but I lost my faith once I became interested in the Bible and began reading it seriously. On one hand, I wish I could be a Christian. It provides somewhat of a "unified theory" in which you can explain all things in life. However, I also love the fact that I don't have the answers to everything and I have a lifetime to search out those answers without the constraints of dogmatism that I think all religions can't help but to create.
I look forward to respectful and enlightening discussions about God, the Bible, philosophy etc. with those whom undoubtedly are more knowledgeable then myself.

Jonathan

Does it really provide a unified theory? care to explain how it does?

 

[Jonathan]

Just a thought Jonathan. Faith is not a feeling. It's total and complete trust that what Jesus said is true. And complete trust that God loves us so much that He sent His only Son to be born of a virgin, and to be the sinless sacrifice for our sins. You have to make the choice to believe that if God says in His Word, that He will reveal Himself to you, that He will. And then you just have to wait, but you also have to be open to receive.
If you are reading critical scholars, you could be unintentionally closing your mind to the things of God. The Bible says that when we seek Him with our whole heart, He will be found by us.
May the Lord our God make Himself very real to you!

Thank you for your thoughts Cturtle. I agree in general to what you have said, I will always remain open to every possibility and would happily receive any revelation that God would provide me with. However, I'm also open to agnosticism or even the belief in no God if that's where the evidence lies. Regarding your definition of faith,
I try to read scholarly books about the bible from diverse of spectrum as possible so as not to be falsely swayed by one side or the other.

Does it really provide a unified theory? care to explain how it does?

I don't believe it does anymore but when I was a Christian I did. What I mean by a "unified theory" is that it seemed to provide consistent and satisfying answers to many, if not all, of life's most difficult and important questions. Why is their suffering? Why do bad things happen to good people? What is the "origin of life"? What does God most want from us? What is Truth? Why is human nature so depraved?
When I was a Christian I was thoroughly confident that I had the answers to all these questions and my Christian friends and family are the same way. I sometimes envy the confidence and assurance they have but most of the time I thoroughly enjoy being intellectually free from the dogmatism that wouldn't allow me to find bits of truth in all philosophies and religions. I got off topic a little but I hope I answered your questions sufficiently.

 

[quinntar]

Thank you for your thoughts Cturtle. I agree in general to what you have said, I will always remain open to every possibility and would happily receive any revelation that God would provide me with. However, I'm also open to agnosticism or even the belief in no God if that's where the evidence lies. Regarding your definition of faith,
I try to read scholarly books about the bible from diverse of spectrum as possible so as not to be falsely swayed by one side or the other.


I don't believe it does anymore but when I was a Christian I did. What I mean by a "unified theory" is that it seemed to provide consistent and satisfying answers to many, if not all, of life's most difficult and important questions. Why is their suffering? Why do bad things happen to good people? What is the "origin of life"? What does God most want from us? What is Truth? Why is human nature so depraved?
When I was a Christian I was thoroughly confident that I had the answers to all these questions and my Christian friends and family are the same way. I sometimes envy the confidence and assurance they have but most of the time I thoroughly enjoy being intellectually free from the dogmatism that wouldn't allow me to find bits of truth in all philosophies and religions. I got off topic a little but I hope I answered your questions sufficiently.

I guess some people just settle with a small universe.

 

[Jonathan]

Jonathan, I wanted to respond about Mormonism but I don't think this is the thread for it. Rather than type in my response here, I attach a piece I had written that I presented to my students a few semesters ago when I was still teaching. After the presentation we discussed what I said with question and answer. Most of my students were Catholic but whenever I taught them Christian topics I avoided Catholic themes, telling them I was no theologian. I was therefore able for the most part to discuss Christian themes that were in common and avoid problems between my Christian and my Catholic students (and this was in a Catholic University). My Christian students who were not Catholic were very appreciative of me in this regard. I'll attach the presentation I gave them on Mormonism in lieu of saying more in this post. I hope it helps you with your questions about Mormonism and what I think are problems with it. It's best to compare what the Mormons think to what the bible says in your bible study; then its startlingly clear how misguided the Mormon view is. I wrote this 3 years ago, so forgive any areas that could stand review/expansion/clarification. The reason I gave the presentation to begin with is that some of my students were drawn to Mormonism and had questions and I realized I knew nothing about. So I proceeded over one weekend to do some intensive study. Then took the next lecture day to address this with them in class. Since it was a presentation, it's not footnoted or in the form of a publishable academic paper. It's simply an informal explanation for the purpose of discussion with my students at that time.

Thanks, I'll definitely check it out. To clarify, my point was that practitioners of every religion under the sun can tell non-believers to disarm their human logic(which, if I'm not mistaken is what you suggested) and to simply "listen to their heart" or "just have faith" etc. The "true religion" (if there is such a thing) can and should be revealed as truth through logic, faith, philosophy and intuition. All of these modes of gaining knowledge and understanding should be in agreement and not one of these modes should have the ability of disproving the other. We shouldn't be afraid of using human logic (which I believe is a gift from our Creator) nor should we be required to ignore it to accept alleged truth claims.
If faith is what you want to be the ultimate virtue then what makes the faith of the Christian more valid or good than the Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim? It takes faith to believe in the "pagan" religions, doesn't it?

 

[Eugene]

We shouldn't be afraid of using human logic (which I believe is a gift from our Creator)

Is this a concession there is a creator? Why?

 

[Jonathan]

How did you screw it up? I am getting ready to reply to your original answer. You are right in a way but keep in mind I do not object to logic, just saying that human logic has limits so why not submit to Jesus and let him teach me? His divine logic is surely better than my human version! I will write more tomorrow and also about Mormon things I have some comments

Look at #24, I was trying to respond to your comments in separate lines. Still trying to figure out how forums work.

 

[Jonathan]

Is this a concession there is a creator? Why?

I assume your asking why I believe in a Creator if I'm a skeptic? I've spent a lot of time researching NDE's and I believe they are the best evidence for a Creator and at this time in my life, it's the only reason I believe there is one.

 

[Jonathan]

I guess some people just settle with a small universe.

I'm sorry, I guess I don't understand your comment.

 

[quinntar]

I'm sorry, I guess I don't understand your comment.

You left Christianity because your universal view expanded. Do you understand.

 

[Jonathan]

Jonathan, I wanted to respond about Mormonism but I don't think this is the thread for it. Rather than type in my response here, I attach a piece I had written that I presented to my students a few semesters ago when I was still teaching. After the presentation we discussed what I said with question and answer. Most of my students were Catholic but whenever I taught them Christian topics I avoided Catholic themes, telling them I was no theologian. I was therefore able for the most part to discuss Christian themes that were in common and avoid problems between my Christian and my Catholic students (and this was in a Catholic University). My Christian students who were not Catholic were very appreciative of me in this regard. I'll attach the presentation I gave them on Mormonism in lieu of saying more in this post. I hope it helps you with your questions about Mormonism and what I think are problems with it. It's best to compare what the Mormons think to what the bible says in your bible study; then its startlingly clear how misguided the Mormon view is. I wrote this 3 years ago, so forgive any areas that could stand review/expansion/clarification. The reason I gave the presentation to begin with is that some of my students were drawn to Mormonism and had questions and I realized I knew nothing about. So I proceeded over one weekend to do some intensive study. Then took the next lecture day to address this with them in class. Since it was a presentation, it's not footnoted or in the form of a publishable academic paper. It's simply an informal explanation for the purpose of discussion with my students at that time.

I read your paper on Mormonism, very interesting and much more complicated than I ever imagined it to be. Thank you for posting it. I don't want to tell you how to teach your class but you could have saved some time and just shown them the "Mormon episode" on "south park". Just kidding of course but if you haven't seen the episode it's worth watching. My pastor (yes, I go to church) tells me the characterization of Mormonism in the show is quite accurate as depicted and it's quite hilarious as well.

 

[Jonathan]

You left Christianity because your universal view expanded. Do you understand.

Not quite. I adopted a "universal view" after leaving Christianity. I left Christianity upon the realization of what I believed to be errors and atrocities in the Bible that can not be reconciled. I also never could believe the concept that God would send a soul to hell, that he could blame us for not being perfect and that we were in need of being saved.