New guy intro

[Eugene]

`

I assume your asking why I believe in a Creator if I'm a skeptic? I've spent a lot of time researching NDE's and I believe they are the best evidence for a Creator and at this time in my life, it's the only reason I believe there is one.

Hi Jonathan, and thanks for your response. I believe you mentioned logic pursuant in your thinking. How does NDE’s, the testimony of others rather than fact affect your decision to not be a Christian?

You also mentioned that all religions require faith. Where do we receive it, and then when acted upon do we make the correct choice?

First of all, what is biblical faith?
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Next , how do we apprehend the faith?
Rom 12:3 . . God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

We might ask why we believe as we do.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Thanks.

 

[Blake]

No, I don't want to be a "Christian" but a follower of Jesus.

Seek and you shall find! Welcome.

I wonder, do you pray? Even though you might consider it a Biblical practice, according to the Bible, Jesus said that we should. Is your pursuit of Jesus Christ fully intellectual (reading scripture, using a concordance, hermeunetics and exegesis and so on), or do you incorporate Christ-centered spiritual practices? Praying, fasting, loving your neighbor as yourself, which He said was the fulfillment of the law of the prophets.

None of my business of course but I am highly curious!

Worth adding: Not all Christians follow Jesus in such a way either, and there are plenty of us which have idolized the head game of Christianity and never embraced the heart game of it. I myself am often guilty of it and only just now, after many years, beginning to embrace it.

Again, welcome! God bless you! I hope and pray that God will extend graces and mercies upon you, and perhaps through anointed promptings through something you may read here, or even a direct revelation from God Himself, the door is opened for you.

 

[Jonathan]

`

Hi Jonathan, and thanks for your response. I believe you mentioned logic pursuant in your thinking. How does NDE’s, the testimony of others rather than fact affect your decision to not be a Christian?

You also mentioned that all religions require faith. Where do we receive it, and then when acted upon do we make the correct choice?

First of all, what is biblical faith?
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Next , how do we apprehend the faith?
Rom 12:3 . . God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

We might ask why we believe as we do.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Thanks.

Eugene, NDE's have been extensively studied, in fact, the most recent study that came out last year in October is the longest running study yet, 4 years I believe. Researchers came to the conclusion that there is validity to some of the claims of NDE'ers. While this study does not make NDE's a fact, it shows there is evidence behind them. Also, if you've ready accounts of NDE'ers, it's hard to come to the conclusion that they are all lying or simply experiencing the effects of brain death. But the "belief" in NDE's didn't cause my de-conversion (although it's caused the de-conversion of many whom have had NDE's), primarily, reading the Bible did. I had questions about discrepancies and wasn't satisfied with apologists answers so I started reading scholarly works by conservative, moderate and critical scholars. Even the writings of conservative scholars destroyed my belief in inerrancy and it was downhill from there.

To your second question, we get faith primarily by the country and family we are born into. There is no other factor that has more influence over the religion people choose to follow. If you were born in Syria, it's very likely you'd be moderating an Islam forum.

 

[quinntar]

Not quite. I adopted a "universal view" after leaving Christianity. I left Christianity upon the realization of what I believed to be errors and atrocities in the Bible that can not be reconciled. I also never could believe the concept that God would send a soul to hell, that he could blame us for not being perfect and that we were in need of being saved.

You said it.

 

[Jonathan]

Seek and you shall find! Welcome.

I wonder, do you pray? Even though you might consider it a Biblical practice, according to the Bible, Jesus said that we should. Is your pursuit of Jesus Christ fully intellectual (reading scripture, using a concordance, hermeunetics and exegesis and so on), or do you incorporate Christ-centered spiritual practices? Praying, fasting, loving your neighbor as yourself, which He said was the fulfillment of the law of the prophets.

None of my business of course but I am highly curious!

Worth adding: Not all Christians follow Jesus in such a way either, and there are plenty of us which have idolized the head game of Christianity and never embraced the heart game of it. I myself am often guilty of it and only just now, after many years, beginning to embrace it.

Again, welcome! God bless you! I hope and pray that God will extend graces and mercies upon you, and perhaps through anointed promptings through something you may read here, or even a direct revelation from God Himself, the door is opened for you.

Blake, thank you for your thoughts. I used to pray a lot, multiple times a day even. When I was struggling with my faith I prayed for Truth for months and months but didn't hear a peep. No answer to my questions about truth, no revelation and not even a hint as to the existence or presense of God. If God removed the scales from Paul's eyes I figured He should at least do the same for me. I should also mention that I had never felt the presence of God at any other time in my life during prayer, in Church etc. So, as far as my senses are concerned, there is no higher power.
I guess my pursuit of Jesus is primarily intellectual, I really do want to know who the Historical Jesus really is and what he really taught(don't want to get off on a tangent but I really think that Paul's teachings overshadow Jesus way too much and more emphasis should be placed on the gospel rather than the epistles). I also find Jesus to be the best moral teacher that the world has ever seen (with the exception of a few strange teachings) and for this reason I want to emulate his character as much as possible.
Thank you for your well wishes, I hope for revelation as well but in the mean time, I am enjoying trying to figure things out with my little pea-brain.

 

[bluegirl]

I assume your asking why I believe in a Creator if I'm a skeptic? I've spent a lot of time researching NDE's and I believe they are the best evidence for a Creator and at this time in my life, it's the only reason I believe there is one.

Jonathan,
I am answering with logical arguments since you may appreciate it, and in spite of hesitations I mentioned in my earlier posts. It is not my favorite mode these days but will do it.

One issue with NDE is that while it gives some hint some would say it could be a dream or a hallucination. Plus the NDE is too complicated for logic. Logic is a way of organizing data, an information system; but the problem with information systems and logic is that logics are infinite but each only captures a set. Rationalism is a logic system. Empiricism is a logic system. The scientific method, math, physics - all logic systems. That is why today physics relies on mining data sets using multiple logics to achieve pictures of reality they call 'high fidelity approximations'. In other times men just used a single path of logic to get at an answer. That is right; physics knows it cannot get at the truth, not by one route, not by a zillion; too much data to sift. All they can get is snapshots. Even that exhausts the limit of current computing power. They admit that now and it has turned physicists to believing in God. Logic as the tool as if it was one tool is an Ancient Greek thing that led to modern scientific method and in turn to even more logic systems. Since one logic is not enough science tries combining several logical methods to get the 'high fidelity approximation.' Sometimes they try for various approximations so they can compare them and make a better guess as to what is probably true. The secret of all sciences is that every single one has an initial axiom that has to be believed, cannot be proven, and must be accepted without evidence. the NDE hints that there is something other and more than the world of the five senses. But it is word of mouth. One has to believe the person saying it happened to them. Faith in their account. All life requires faith. When I put my feet on the floor to stand in the morning I have to believe the ground is solid that it is under my feet. What is to under-stand? To under-stand we need something under on which to stand. We have to accept and believe before we can even apply logic. Before we take a step. We judge that something is true every single second, and have faith in that judgment.

A) I am a tiny finite being, b) I have little control of reality and even my life is not fully controlled by me, c) the cosmos is beautiful and beyond what the greatest human minds could create much less control, keeping in mind the many limitations physics now admits, d) reality is so complicated scientists admit that to create even a tiny bit of a tiny bit of it is impossible. (A.i. For example is a pipe dream for all the boasting that goes on at Google and other places), e) the things humans can make pale in comparison to God's creation, f) since any under-standing requires that I have faith and accept something as GIVEN, I cannot rely on human logic to a perfect degree, g) all of this could logically get one to see that the cosmos was created by a loving caring being whose creative and 'logical' capacities exceed human comprehension, a perfect being who cares about His creation, h) the last point (g) makes more sense than attributing creation to randomness and chaos, within which scheme humans would be without ultimate purpose, existing in a universe not based on love but on random unfeeling materiality. The last two points represent a choice (g and h) that put modern philosophy into a crisis, a choice that led some to argue that humans created a God concept out of fear of the meaninglessness of the last option h. Thus they accuse Christians and believers in God of simply being unable to face their mortality. The crux is that factions of the disciplines of science and philosophy today have admitted they are at a dead end. This is why physicists are split, a large percent have come to believe in God. A large percent refuse, continue to dream of technology and progress via the human faculties alone. And both camps use logic to prove their side. But even logic relies on belief and assumption, even if that belief is supposedly justified by lots of 'data'.

So basically rather than get tired stewing over this for myself I let go of human logic as my religion. Rather than this tree of knowledge I close the tree of life. I then saw logic differently, I saw it as an imperfect although usable tool, nothing more.

The beauty is that if humans can be so brilliant and can wrestle with such logical puzzles, imagine how wonderful to be in His hands who is infinitely more brilliant. God is the smartest in the room so why settle for approximations? Why not go for the whole tamale?

And there my friend is a logical explanation of why I have limited interest in human logic.

 

[bluegirl]

Not quite. I adopted a "universal view" after leaving Christianity. I left Christianity upon the realization of what I believed to be errors and atrocities in the Bible that can not be reconciled. I also never could believe the concept that God would send a soul to hell, that he could blame us for not being perfect and that we were in need of being saved.

I will comment on this later after you check out my last post. ;)

 

[Jonathan]

Jonathan,
I am answering with logical arguments since you may appreciate it, and in spite of hesitations I mentioned in my earlier posts.

One issue with NDE is that while it gives some hint some would say it could be a dream or a hallucination. Plus the NDE is too complicated for logic. Logic is a way of organizing data, an information system; but the problem with information systems and logic is that logics are infinite but each only captures a set. Rationalism is a logic system. Empiricism is a logic system. The scientific method, math, physics - all logic systems. That is why today physics relies on mining data sets using multiple logics to achieve pictures of reality they call 'high fidelity approximations'. In other times men just used a single path of logic to get at an answer. That is right; physics knows it cannot get at the truth, not by one route, not by a zillion; too much data to sift. All they can get is snapshots. Even that exhausts the limit of current computing power. They admit that now and it has turned physicists to believing in God. Logic as the tool as if it was one tool is an Ancient Greek thing that led to modern scientific method and in turn to even more logic systems. Since one logic is not enough science tries combining several logical methods to get the 'high fidelity approximation.' Sometimes they try for various approximations so they can compare them and make a better guess as to what is probably true. The secret of all sciences is that every single one has an initial axiom that has to be believed, cannot be proven, and must be accepted without evidence. the NDE hints that there is something other and more than the world of the five senses. But it is word of mouth. One has to believe the person saying it happened to them. Faith in their account. All life requires faith. When I put my feet on the floor to stand in the morning I have to believe the ground is solid that it is under my feet. What is to under-stand? To under-stand we need something under on which to stand. We have to accept and believe before we can even apply logic. Before we take a step. We judge that something is true every single second, and have faith in that judgment.

A) I am a tiny finite being, b) I have little control of reality and even my life is not fully controlled by me, c) the cosmos is beautiful and beyond what the greatest human minds could create much less control, keeping in mind the many limitations physics now admits, d) reality is so complicated scientists admit that to create even a tiny bit of a tiny bit of it is impossible. (A.i. For example is a pipe dream for all the boasting that goes on at Google and other places), e) the things humans can make pale in comparison to God's creation, f) since any under-standing requires that I have faith and accept something as GIVEN, I cannot rely on human logic to a perfect degree, g) all of this could logically get one to see that the cosmos was created by a loving caring being whose creative and 'logical' capacities exceed human comprehension, a perfect being who cares about His creation, h) the last point makes more sense than attributing creation to randomness and chaos, within which scheme humans would be without ultimate purpose, existing in a universe not based on love but on random unfeeling materiality. The last two points represent a choice (g and h) that put modern philosophy into a crisis, a choice that led some to argue that humans created a God concept out of fear of the meaninglessness of the last option h. Thus they accuse Christians and believers in God of simply being unable to face their mortality. The crux is that factions of the disciplines of science and philosophy today have admitted they are at a dead end. This is why physicists are split, a large percent have come to believe in God. A large percent refuse, continue to dream of technology and progress via the human faculties alone. And both camps use logic to prove their side. But even logic relies on belief and assumption, even if that belief is supposedly justified by lots of 'data'.

So basically rather than get tired stewing over this for myself I let go of human logic as my religion. I saw it differently, as less infallible.

The beauty is that if humans can be so brilliant imagine how wonderful to be in His hands who is infinitely more brilliant. God is the smartest in the room so why settle for approximations?

I have to admit that much of what you wrote is over my head but the bit I do understand makes sense in a way. I just don't see how this approach leads to Christianity. Faith may also lead to Hinduism, in fact, for millions, it has.

 

[bluegirl]

I have to admit that much of what you wrote is over my head but the bit I do understand makes sense in a way. I just don't see how this approach leads to Christianity. Faith may also lead to Hinduism, in fact, for millions, it has.

But Hinduism is many competing warring gods, a version of chaos. Hardly the vision of a unified creation and a creator.

In the end reading scripture and prayer, and opening your heart to Jesus to teach you are the only 'convincing'.

 

[Jonathan]

But Hinduism is many competing warring gods, a version of chaos. Hardly the vision of a unified creation and a creator.

But aren't you using logic to discredit Hinduism?

In the end reading scripture and prayer, and opening your heart to Jesus to teach you are the only 'convincing'.

Perhaps, but I've done that and my heart and mind is open to revelation from the Creator.

 

[Cturtle]

Not quite. I adopted a "universal view" after leaving Christianity. I left Christianity upon the realization of what I believed to be errors and atrocities in the Bible that can not be reconciled. I also never could believe the concept that God would send a soul to hell, that he could blame us for not being perfect and that we were in need of being saved.

In Deuteronomy 30:19-20 God clearly states "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that i have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live." Now does this seem like the God that you describe? Here He is telling us that we have a choice. Now would you rather have been an angel who does not have the choice to obey or disobey?
And if i may ask what questions do you have that you feel as if they are contradictory?

 

[quinntar]

In Deuteronomy 30:19-20 God clearly states "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that i have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live." Now does this seem like the God that you describe? Here He is telling us that we have a choice. Now would you rather have been an angel who does not have the choice to obey or disobey?
And if i may ask what questions do you have that you feel as if they are contradictory?

So is God saying if we choose him and his way we will see life? is this an accurate picture of how believers really are?

 

[Cturtle]

So is God saying if we choose him and his way we will see life? is this an accurate picture of how believers really are?

First before i answer your question i would like to clarify....we will see life. How are you meaning this? In the here and now or in heaven.

 

[quinntar]

First before i answer your question i would like to clarify....we will see life. How are you meaning this? In the here and now or in heaven.

I see where your going, so I think we have to establish first if deuteronomy is in fact refering to (Thou and thy seed may live) as in life after death.

 

[Cturtle]

I see where your going, so I think we have to establish first if deuteronomy is in fact refering to (Thou and thy seed may live) as in life after death.

Actually i wanted to know exactly what you were referring to so that i could answer you correctly.

 

[quinntar]

Actually i wanted to know exactly what you were referring to so that i could answer you correctly.

Both, heaven and earthly life.

 

[Cturtle]

Both, heaven and earthly life.

Deuteronomy i believe it is just talking about earthly life. And this is the way that believers really believe.

 

[Cturtle]

So is God saying if we choose him and his way we will see life? is this an accurate picture of how believers really are?

Something i was just thinking... God wants us to choose Him so that we will see a long and blessed life. He is not saying that we will die right away, but that basically He cannot protect us from the evil one if we do not choose His ways.

 

[quinntar]

Something i was just thinking... God wants us to choose Him so that we will see a long and blessed life. He is not saying that we will die right away, but that basically He cannot protect us from the evil one if we do not choose His ways.

That's what I'm saying, do christians really have this "blessed life" over the average non believer.

 

[bluegirl]

But aren't you using logic to discredit Hinduism?



Perhaps, but I've done that and my heart and mind is open to revelation from the Creator.

I am glad to hear that