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nukedkitty said:
Ok jonathan, as per your request heres a doctrine (Freewill)
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I'm not sure that is in fact official church doctrine ("God will not force himself on us") but the funny thing is that Calvinists believe that God will in fact force himself on us. They believe we are totally depraved and that the only way that we will choose Truth/God/Jesus is if God first chooses us and brings us up out of our depravity.

Oh, I just re-read and saw you were talking about free-will. So, the post in which Cturtle quoted Deuteronomy backs up free-will (the bit about choosing life or death) but like I said, there are also passages in the epistles that support there not being free-will to choose life or death. Like I said, the Calvinists believe we have no choice and they very readily refer to the various passages found in the epistles that do in fact speak of such nonsense. I'll have to write up a more formal post on free-will.
 
Jonathan said:
I'm not sure that is in fact official church doctrine ("God will not force himself on us") but the funny thing is that Calvinists believe that God will in fact force himself on us. They believe we are totally depraved and that the only way that we will choose Truth/God/Jesus is if God first chooses us and brings us up out of our depravity.

Oh, I just re-read and saw you were talking about free-will. So, the post in which Cturtle quoted Deuteronomy backs up free-will (the bit about choosing life or death) but like I said, there are also passages in the epistles that support there not being free-will to choose life or death. Like I said, the Calvinists believe we have no choice and they very readily refer to the various passages found in the epistles that do in fact speak of such nonsense. I'll have to write up a more formal post on free-will.
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If I have my facts straight, freewill is not found the bible.
 
nukedkitty said:
If I have my facts straight, freewill is not found the bible.
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The term is not found but there are passages that support and refute the concept. Most passages imply we have free-will, for instance Joshua stating "...choose this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve The Lord." Sort of implies choice is involved. There are other passages, will have to find them.
 
Jonathan said:
The term is not found but there are passages that support and refute the concept. Most passages imply we have free-will, for instance Joshua stating "...choose this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve The Lord." Sort of implies choice is involved. There are other passages, will have to find them.
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Ok.
 
Maybe he does do it. It is on such a personal basis. That is why I hesitate to judge others and think it is right that we leave that to God.
 
bluegirl said:
Maybe he does do it. It is on such a personal basis. That is why I hesitate to judge others and think it is right that we leave that to God.
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No the bible says its ok to judge people, but judge right.
 
nukedkitty said:
I have a child whom has nothing to do with me, but even though that really hurts id never harm her for that.
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Nukedkitty, i have three children and two grandchildren, that i am separated from right now, and i agree with you that it does hurt so very much, and i have to respect their choice. I look forward to the day when i am able to at least hear from them again, and i would do nothing to harm them. However if i gave them the choice to do one thing or the other and they made their choice then, that is something that i have to live with, weather or not it was a good choice. And the most important thing is that i love them nonetheless!
I pray that the Lord restores your relationship with your child! Blessings
 
Cturtle said:
Nukedkitty, i have three children and two grandchildren, that i am separated from right now, and i agree with you that it does hurt so very much, and i have to respect their choice. I look forward to the day when i am able to at least hear from them again, and i would do nothing to harm them. However if i gave them the choice to do one thing or the other and they made their choice then, that is something that i have to live with, weather or not it was a good choice. And the most important thing is that i love them nonetheless!
I pray that the Lord restores your relationship with your child! Blessings
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So sorry to hear that Cturtle. I think that there are very few situations that are impossible to reconcile between family, I've seen amazing things happen in my own family when it seemed hopeless. I hope you never give up hope Cturtle.
 
nukedkitty said:
If I have my facts straight, freewill is not found the bible.
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The word "freewill" might be in some easy to read translations, but in general it is mostly choose. There are many places in the Bible where we are given a choice, but a lot of religions (or denominations) do not recognize our right to choose.
 
Jonathan said:
So sorry to hear that Cturtle. I think that there are very few situations that are impossible to reconcile between family, I've seen amazing things happen in my own family when it seemed hopeless. I hope you never give up hope Cturtle.
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Thanks Jonathan! I really appreciate your words of encouragement! I have a verse in the Bible that God gave me that it is only for a season. And He also gave me verses letting me know that i can trust Him to take care of them and they will be serving Him. It just takes patience.
Thank you also for being willing to have this discussion in your welcome thread. I enjoy talking to you all! :)
 
Jesse said:
No, that is not what it says....and your implication of what it means is way off, too.
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Actually that is exactly what it says in the Word. Nothing is impossible for God. The actual verse is mt. 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, with men this impossible; but with God all things are possible." Luke and John say the same thing And i believe it. Sometimes people quit trusting God to soon because it does not come fast enough.
 
Cturtle said:
Actually that is exactly what it says in the Word. Nothing is impossible for God. The actual verse is mt. 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, with men this impossible; but with God all things are possible." Luke and John say the same thing And i believe it. Sometimes people quit trusting God to soon because it does not come fast enough.
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It says nothing is impossible WITH God, for instance God can not go back on His promise. I know it's picky but there are things that God can not do just because He is not a liar and He keep His promises.
 
Jonathan said:
I'm not sure that is in fact official church doctrine ("God will not force himself on us") but the funny thing is that Calvinists believe that God will in fact force himself on us. They believe we are totally depraved and that the only way that we will choose Truth/God/Jesus is if God first chooses us and brings us up out of our depravity.

Oh, I just re-read and saw you were talking about free-will. So, the post in which Cturtle quoted Deuteronomy backs up free-will (the bit about choosing life or death) but like I said, there are also passages in the epistles that support there not being free-will to choose life or death. Like I said, the Calvinists believe we have no choice and they very readily refer to the various passages found in the epistles that do in fact speak of such nonsense. I'll have to write up a more formal post on free-will.
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I am looking forward to seeing these verses in the new testament (epistles) that say there is no free will. Because to me there are a lot of people who take verses out of context or they ingnore some verses of grace and such so as to push their view, thus creating a new doctrine.
 
Jesse said:
It says nothing is impossible WITH God, for instance God can not go back on His promise. I know it's picky but there are things that God can not do just because He is not a liar and He keep His promises.
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In those instances one has to get the full context of where in the Bible one is speaking about, and what is being said. I agree that God is not a liar! And does not go back on His promises, however if like in the case of Hezekiah, He was given a death sentence from God. He chose to ask for forgiveness and, change his attitude, and God spared him. Giving him 15 more years. That is an example of grace. Not God being a liar. If you have others i would like to hear them. :)
 
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I am looking forward to seeing these verses in the new testament (epistles) that say there is no free will. Because to me there are a lot of people who take verses out of context or they ingnore some verses of grace and such so as to push their view, thus creating a new doctrine.
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Ha ha, OK, I'll take that as a challenge. Well, as you have seen from some of the other debate topics on the forum, there are some passages that support the concept of the election. But as you've pointed out, there are passages that support the idea of grace.

Here is a passage a Calvinist may use to support the idea of predestination(which inherentely implies lack of free-will to choose God/good/Truth).

Ephesians 1:4-5New International Version (NIV)
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[a] predestined us for adoption to sonship[b] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
 
Cturtle said:
In those instances one has to get the full context of where in the Bible one is speaking about, and what is being said. I agree thwt God is not a liar! And does not go back on His promises, however if like in the case of Hezekiah, He was given a death sentence from God. He chose to ask for forgiveness and, change his attitude, and God spared him. Giving him 15 more years. That is an example of grace. Not God being a liar. If you have others i would like to hear them. :)
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God can not go back on His promise about flooding the earth again and the sign of that is the rainbow. He can not take back the work of Christ, God can not take away reward or eternal life for those who are faithful to Him, He can not go against what the Bible says. I think there are many more things.
All things are possible WITH God is that for those who love God and obey His commandments, when we ask in faith, He will answer and in this all things are possible with God.
 
Jonathan said:
Ha ha, OK, I'll take that as a challenge. Well, as you have seen from some of the other debate topics on the forum, there are some passages that support the concept of the election. But as you've pointed out, there are passages that support the idea of grace.

Here is a passage a Calvinist may use to support the idea of predestination(which inherentely implies lack of free-will to choose God/good/Truth).

Ephesians 1:4-5New International Version (NIV)
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[a] predestined us for adoption to sonship[b] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
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You are presenting a false doctrine to try to show something that isn't in the Bible in order to prove a false doctrine???

You make no sense.
 
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