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[Brent Branaman]

Then I say this with all love...perhaps you were never born again and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Knowing God and being born a new creature are not the same thing.

Ah, the "no true Scotsman" response. If you want to have a conversation with an ex-Christian, this type of comment usually gets you nowhere. It is a self-sealing argument and gives us no room to talk.

Just for kicks, though, let us try. What would be an indicator to you that I wasn't born a new creature and filled with the Holy Spirit? Was belief not enough? Was my dedication not enough? Would God give a stone to someone who asks for bread?

It's also fun to look at that response the other way. If you were never a Christian, how do they know for certain that they truly are?

Exactly, Zan ;) If we asked a Christian how they "know" that they are a Christian and that the Holy Spirit lives within them, the answers they give would not be sufficient for us to give. It is almost as if our present denial of the existence of any Holy Spirit negates our previous strong belief in and possession by it.

 

[MimilovesBibi]

Interesting thread.

I would say that 'some' might think they have been saved, but before the gospel could take root, which biblically means, rooted in Christ, Himself...that they fall away to another gospel. ONLY one gospel has the power to save. There are many gospels in the world today.

The true one does not leave room for doubts, or falling away...for it is impossible for God to lie...it is men that lie, and teach false gospels.

 

[glorydaz]

[quote="Brent Branaman":20kliy6g]

I have believed in God since I could read. I believed Jesus died for my sins and rose from the dead since elementary age. There isn't a single moment that I could track my original Christian conversion, though my Church of Christ heritage would say that it was at my baptism at age 12. It was then that I dedicated my life to God (at least as much as a 12 year-old can manage). I rededicated myself several times all the way through college.

Then I say this with all love...perhaps you were never born again and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Knowing God and being born a new creature are not the same thing.

Ah, the "no true Scotsman" response. If you want to have a conversation with an ex-Christian, this type of comment usually gets you nowhere. It is a self-sealing argument and gives us no room to talk.

Just for kicks, though, let us try. What would be an indicator to you that I wasn't born a new creature and filled with the Holy Spirit? Was belief not enough? Was my dedication not enough? Would God give a stone to someone who asks for bread?[/quote:20kliy6g]

I was offering what I saw as an explanation for why you deconverted.
I've known many people in my life who grew up in the church and later realized they weren't actually saved. It was only after they had been born again that they knew that. I myself, was raised as a Catholic, and wanted to be a nun. I wanted to dedicate my life to God. Was my belief not enough or my dedication not enough? I would say, the Lord knew I wasn't ready for what He had in mind for me. He had some preparation work to do first. As it turns out, I was not even seeking when He picked me up, down the road...in His own perfect time. Sometimes, God does give a stone when we ask for bread because our hearts are not yet prepared. It's one of the mysteries of God.

 

[MimilovesBibi]

[quote="Brent Branaman":hyylcunq]

I have believed in God since I could read. I believed Jesus died for my sins and rose from the dead since elementary age. There isn't a single moment that I could track my original Christian conversion, though my Church of Christ heritage would say that it was at my baptism at age 12. It was then that I dedicated my life to God (at least as much as a 12 year-old can manage). I rededicated myself several times all the way through college.

Then I say this with all love...perhaps you were never born again and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Knowing God and being born a new creature are not the same thing.

Ah, the "no true Scotsman" response. If you want to have a conversation with an ex-Christian, this type of comment usually gets you nowhere. It is a self-sealing argument and gives us no room to talk.

Just for kicks, though, let us try. What would be an indicator to you that I wasn't born a new creature and filled with the Holy Spirit? Was belief not enough? Was my dedication not enough? Would God give a stone to someone who asks for bread?[/quote:hyylcunq]

Hi Brent...here is how I would view it.....

I believe IF you were saved, you WILL be saved..(in the end). You are correct, God does NOT give us a stone, IF we ask for bread, so IF you truly did ask for bread, in the 'end' you will be saved. There are varying types of people...there are those whom have never been saved, at all, and there are those whom have, but have fallen from grace. The point to remember in this discussion though, is that IF you were truly saved, even if you become unsaved, you will eventually return..to salvation. Not because you willed it, but because God, as the ONLY true Father IS able to correct His own children, and His word reveals how He does it.

I would like to attempt to lay it out as I view it.

Salvation is a free gift. We cannot earn it. It is given to all whom believe.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

In this way, all are on the same level with God. When we are born into the world, we are already condemned, not by our own sin, but by the sin of the one/Adam.

When we receive the free gift, we are saved, in the same way not by our works..but by the works of the One man/Christ.

So, if you truly believed the gospel, you were saved..now, lets look at how you can become unsaved, because there is more than one way to fall from grace. The way of the Lord is the straight and narrow. It is that way for a very good reason, and it is my opinion that to remain on the straight and narrow, we must not fall on either side of the ditch, because it is true that if you do, you fall from grace...I believe the confusion comes in when we dont rightly understand though that you can fall and become 'cut off'...but what is NOT possible is that you remain that way...but, only for a time...so, I would say to you that if you were truly saved, you will be in the end...(whether you like that or not, lol.... ) So, lets look at how one can fall from grace:

One ditch:

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


Those whom are saved and then forget their way of justifcation, fall from grace. They become unsaved.

The other ditch:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Paul dealt with both ditches...and, both ditches causes a person to fall from grace, while they remain in the ditch. Grace teaches us to obey...it does not teach us to disobey, as the other false gospel would promote.

Now..let us look as to whether or not it is possible for them to remain in this state, IF they WERE truly saved to begin with:

Here we see an example of someone whom had fallen in the 'grace allows us to live in sin, ditch':

1 cor 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged F14 already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

God works the same way with the other ditch, and we see that with the example of Paul himself that sought to be justified by the law.

The part in bold is very important however.

That is why it is important to understand that God truly IS able to correct His own children.

It is my opinion that if you WERE saved, eventually God will correct you and you will return back to Him.

Not because you willed it, but because He is ABLE...and, this is very much a part of the only TRUE gospel...but, having one's flesh brought to destruction is not a fun thing...you will see that, too.... ;)

God bless...