New Preterist Question Rev 11:9

[nonbelieverforums]

Rev 11:9
Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[a] their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth

I understand this to be two witnesses who will call the world to repentance during the first half of the Tribulation. When they are killed by the Antichrist, we are told that their bodies will lie in the streets of Jerusalem for three and a half days, "and the whole world will look upon them".

Such a prophecy could easily be fulfilled in the modern day by the use of TV

1.
How does the whole world or those who dwell on earth rejoice over them see them in the first century?

So if I lived in China or Russia for example in the first century how did I get to see these two witnesses lie in the streets of Jersualem?

2.
May I know name of these two witnesses?

3.
The bible consistently names, names when it comes to stories in the bible. Yet when it comes to your views of entimes no names are mentioned. What was the name of the antichrist? What was the name of the false prophet, who is the beast? Why is it all of a sudden no names are mentioned in the first century view of end times?

 

[researcher]

I'm not a full preterist (only partial) so I might not be able to answer all of your questions.

From my understanding, the "two witnesses" are/were not merely two people although that is the popular belief.

The two witnesses are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks. Let's look at the candlesticks for a sec.

Rev 11:3 "And I will give [power] to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred [and] sixty days, having been clothed with sackcloth."
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the Lord of the earth.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Imo the Candlesticks would be churches as Rev 1:20 puts it. So, the candlesticks wouldn't be two people, but many. In the Bible trees are symbolic for both people and nations. Were the two trees "nations," or people? Personally I have no idea.

There may have been two individuals who were the two "trees." If this chapter is 1st century (as I believe at least Rev 11:2 is) then who would the two individuals be? I dunno. Peter and Paul come to mind. Some historians say that Peter and Paul were both executed together in Rome on Appian Way. Peter was an Apostle to the Jews, Paul to the Gentiles. If the two "trees" were/are symbolic for nations, then, they could represent Jews and Gentile. And Peter and Paul would be their respective Apostles.

If Paul and Peter were both killed at the same time in Rome as some suggest, then, Rome being the center of the Empire would have had people from many different nations living there, and they may or may not have witnessed the executions. Those would be the people from all different nations who saw their bodies. In major metropolis', there are generally people from all over the world in a single location. Were the people happy after their executions? I don't know. I believe at least Josephus or Tacitus made remarks concerning the general hatred for Christians in 1st century Rome (and throughout the empire).

As for the word "earth" used in those verses, it is also interpreted to mean "land" throughout the NT. When we read "earth" does it always mean "the whole earth," or, just "the land/region" in Revelation?

As for the plagues/no rain from the two witnesses - is it all literal, or is it symbolic as much of Revelation is?

Pure speculation on my part. I don't know what happened... I wasn't there. I think the standard explanations/interpretations leave a lot to be desired though. There is more to chapter 11 than meets the eye. Some or much of it is at least symbolic.

 

[Osgiliath]

Revelation 11:4 "These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the Lord of the earth."



Hmmm. Interesting. I like it! Let's play for money! :D I'll ask the next question (to everyone who antes in):

* How can two lampstands and two olive trees (four objects) in Heaven serve as Two Witnesses on Earth?

 

[Sinthesis]

Revelation 11:4 "These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the Lord of the earth."



Hmmm. Interesting. I like it! Let's play for money! :D I'll ask the next question (to everyone who antes in):

* How can two lampstands and two olive trees (four objects) in Heaven serve as Two Witnesses on Earth?

There are only two witnesses, but they both have the characteristic of olive trees in that they bear fruit; also the characteristic of candlesticks in that they light up the world. Two witnesses times two characteristics equals four 'objects'.

If you're going to play for money, you should learn to bluff, because the cards are stacked against you. :shades

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Sinthesis
If you're going to play for money, you should learn to bluff, because the cards are stacked against you.

It was a bluff. And yes, there are Two Witnesses, and your answer here was correct:

There are only two witnesses, but they both have the characteristic of olive trees in that they bear fruit; also the characteristic of candlesticks in that they light up the world. Two witnesses times two characteristics equals four 'objects'.

However, it wasn't the explanation I was hoping for. We obviously know there are Two Witnesses:

Revelation 11:3 "And I will give power to My two witnesses...."



You should know me better than that by now Sinth :D

 

[whirlwind]

Rev 11:9
Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[a] their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth

I understand this to be two witnesses who will call the world to repentance during the first half of the Tribulation. When they are killed by the Antichrist, we are told that their bodies will lie in the streets of Jerusalem for three and a half days, "and the whole world will look upon them".

Researcher was right in saying that the "two witnesses" are two groups....not two entities.

Also, you mention that the bodies lie in the streets of Jerusalem...but that isn't what is written.

That being said....you have some terrific questions for preterists. :yes

 

[Sinthesis]

Also, you mention that the bodies lie in the streets of Jerusalem...but that isn't what is written.

Really? Where was your Lord crucified?

 

[whirlwind]

Also, you mention that the bodies lie in the streets of Jerusalem...but that isn't what is written.

Really? Where was your Lord crucified?

In the great city.

There are many mentions of cities in the Bible and quite a variety of those: Strong city, priest city, city of David, city of the Lord, tumultuous city, joyous city, rebellious city, golden city, royal city, etc., but the city this post is concerned with is....The Great City.

Genesis 10:8-12 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth. He was a mighty hunter before the Lord: wherefore it is said, "Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord." And the beginning of his kingdom was BABEL, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh ( and the city Rehoboth) and Calah, And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a GREAT CITY.

The first Biblical mention of a "great city" is Nineveh, associated with Babylon (Iraq of today)


Joshua 10:2 That they feared greatly, because Gibeon was a GREAT CITY, as one of the royal cities, and because it was greater than Ai, and all the men thereof were mighty.

Mighty # 1368 gibbor ~ powerful, by impl. warrior, tyrant, champion, chief, excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), strong (man), valiant man.

Mighty men often mean...giants, offspring of the fallen angels. Here, this great city, was feared because "all the men thereof were mighty" - all the men were giants! So, the "great city" is connected to Babylon and the fallen angels.


Jeremiah 22:6-9 For thus saith the Lord unto the king's house of Judah; Thou art Gilead unto Me, and the head of Lebanon: yet surely I will make thee a wilderness, and cities which are not inhabited. And I will prepare destroyers against thee, every one with his weapons: and they shall cut down thy choice cedars, and cast them into the fire. And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, 'Wherefore hath the Lord done thus unto this GREAT CITY?' Then they shall answer, 'Because they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord their God, and worshipped other gods, and served them.'

God is speaking to the king of Judah but He is not speaking about the city of Jerusalem. It is instead the "house of Judah" and they are the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin. He is telling that house that if they worship other gods then He will send destroyers.

Some say this references the time Jerusalem was invaded by the Roman general Titus in 70AD but....God is not speaking to the city of Jerusalem here, it is instead the "house of Judah" He is addressing. So, what city does God mean when He says, "many nations shall pass by this city," for that city is the "great city?"

This prophesy will happen in the end of days for it is written that those that are in her, the "choice cedars" are to be "cast into the fire" and that is repeated in [Revelation 18:18 below] The cedars are symbolic of people while the choice cedars are those in high positions that helped this Great City. When are those "choice cedars" cast into the fire? In the "time of the harvest" which is the end of days.....

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, 'Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."


Jonah 1:2 "Arise, go to Nineveh, that GREAT CITY, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before Me."

Jonah 3:2-3 "Arise, go unto Nineveh, that GREAT CITY, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee" So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceeding GREAT CITY of three days' journey.

Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that GREAT CITY, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?"

Here we have the great city shown as Nineveh, the capital of the ancient kingdom and empire of Assyria, situated about two hundred and fifty miles north of Babylon. This is part of the kingdom of Nimrod.

Nineveh was a literal city while the "great city" is not. Nineveh was a type of the great city and all she stands for. It is interesting to me to see God speaking of "sparing" some of those in the great city, in the future sense. Why? Because they are misled...don't know their left from their right. And that is because of their false teachers. The great city is full of false religion, idol worship, apostasy.



Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

This was shocking to me but I finally realized....THIS IS NOT JERUSALEM BEING SPOKEN OF. Yes, Christ was crucified outside the gates of Jerusalem but this "great city" is not a literal location. For that reason it is referred to as "spiritually" being called "Sodom and Egypt." Which just means wickedness. Egypt is symbolic of the world, worldly lusts and desires and you know what Sodom is all about.....evil, wickedness. That wickedness is what crucified our Lord and is what will kill the witnesses. It is not a place, the great city is Satan's realm....evil.



17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And the angel said unto me, "Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 17:15 And he saith unto me, "The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that GREAT CITY, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Those verses say it all. The great city is Babylon and she is an abomination. She "sitteth" on the waters which are the people of the world, people of all nations and languages. She is a wicked extension of Satan and the world loves her.


18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saing, 'Alas, alas, that GREAT CITY BABYLON, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.' 16. And saying, 'Alas, alas, that GREAT CITY, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 18. And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, 'What city is like unto this GREAT CITY!' 21.And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, "thus with violence shall that GREAT CITY Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 23. And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by they sorceries were all nations deceived.

The "one hour" when her judgment comes is Satan's hour of temptation. Those that fall for his deception are part of her and share in her punishment. She shall be thrown down and her false religion will never be tolerated again. She will never again deceive.


14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that GREAT CITY, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

16:19 And the GREAT CITY was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and GREAT BABYLON came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

Revelation 18:10 is the last Biblical reference to the Great City...she is gone forever. However, we do find.....

21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that (GREAT CITY), the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

This is either a blatant attempt to confuse the Word of God by some of the scribes Christ warned us of or is a mistranslation but the fact remains....Great City is NOT in the text but is instead...the Holy City Jerusalem!


So, we see that the great city is not Jerusalem and that she is not really a city but is symbolic of all those gathered in her. She is evil, she is Satan's handmaiden, she is an abomination and the world drinks from her cup.

When you ask...."Where was your Lord crucified?" I answer...He was literally crucified just outside the gates of Jerusalem but He was also literally crucified in the great city and that great city is worldwide.

 

[Osgiliath]

I agree with whirlwind concerning the "great city" - and this ties into the Two Witnesses.


Zechariah 4:2 "And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof."

At the time of this vision, the single candlestick represented the Old Testament (God's Word).

*Two olive trees
*ONE candlestick

Notice:

Revelation 11: 4 "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

At the time of this vision, there are Two Testaments (Old AND New)

*Two olive trees
*TWO candlesticks

The Two Candlesticks in Heaven's temple (standing before God) today represent the Old and New Testaments (God's Word). The truth about God shines from these Two Testaments. They are His witnesses.

The Two Olive Trees are the Holy Spirit supplying oil to the candlesticks, keeping the testimony of these Two Testaments "alive" (i.e. the former and latter day rain). The Spirit of God enables the Law of God (two testaments) to shine perpetually:

Isaiah 55:10,11 "As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

God's "Law" requires a minimum of two witnesses to condemn a person to death:

Deuteronomy 17:6 "On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness."

During the Tribulation, God will see to it that everyone will hear the truth of the Bible, unspoiled and unsullied by man (delivered by the 144,000 ); and everyone will be convicted by the Holy Spirit to believe the Word of God. Those rejecting the Holy Spirit will also reject the authority of Bible truth, and the wicked will be condemned to death by these two witnesses. There is only one unpardonable sin:

Matthew 12:31 "And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Is the "unpardonable sin" making a little more sense now?

Revelation 11:5 "If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die."

How can anyone harm the Bible and the Holy Spirit? Simple. If a person makes any effort to distort, diminish or deflect God's truth, he harms the Word of God.

How can the Two Witnesses being "killed" ? Simple. It is a figure of speech (i.e. like a Bill in the Senate being killed - i.e. Obama's Card-check bill is "dead" :D ).



As for the "great city", I agree with whirlwind

Revelation 11:8 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

God is uses personification in this verse:

(Because of disdain and hatred for the Word of God) ......their bodies (two witnesses) will lie in the street of the great city (the great city is the whore -- a city of spiritual vanity and evil), which is figuratively called Sodom (because its inhabitants are people consumed by immorality) and Egypt (because its inhabitants are people having hardened hearts like Pharaoh), where also their Lord was crucified. (Jerusalem was plagued by the same characteristics as Sodom and Egypt when Jesus was crucified).

Babylon will not be a "localized" geographical city. Babylon will be a "global" city of "goats", and "the Holy City" mentioned in 11:2 will be a "global" city of "sheep."

 

[whirlwind]

Hi Osgiliath,


I agree in that knowing what the "great city" is helps in understanding the two witnesses.

I see the "one candlestick" in Zechariah as Jesus where you see it as the Old Testament. We are both correct as He is the Word. The two prophets are the Old and New Testament and they witness through us....the two witnesses, candlesticks AND churches. That "and" makes a big difference in understanding that verse....I'm glad you called attention to it.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.

Acts 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with Him after He rose from the dead.


I'm not sure about the being killed though. I see types given where it appears it is more than twisting His Word. Whether it is physically being killed or not...I don't know.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by whirlwind
I see the "one candlestick" in Zechariah as Jesus where you see it as the Old Testament. We are both correct as He is the Word.

Very good point

 

[Vic C.]

Is the "unpardonable sin" making a little more sense now?

No... :D

I know this is off topic and I will dig up the link where we discussed the great sin. But I'm convinced of two things:

1- It was addressing those of Jesus' time who actually witnessed the work of the Spirit in Him, and attributed the work of the Lord to Satan instead.

Jesus' reply in this passage was brilliant!

Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

2- Due to #1, this is a sin that just cannot be committed these days. That is unless Jesus comes back and personally begins casting out demons again. :amen

I've seen those verses taken out of context so many times and used in so many places, I lost count.

 

[whirlwind]

Is the "unpardonable sin" making a little more sense now?

No... :D

I know this is off topic and I will dig up the link where we discussed the great sin. But I'm convinced of two things:

1- It was addressing those of Jesus' time who actually witnessed the work of the Spirit in Him, and attributed the work of the Lord to Satan instead.

Jesus' reply in this passage was brilliant!

Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

2- Due to #1, this is a sin that just cannot be committed these days. That is unless Jesus comes back and personally begins casting out demons again. :amen

I've seen those verses taken out of context so many times and used in so many places, I lost count.

I believe it is an event that only the elect can commit and only in the end of days....for the following reasons.

Luke 12:8-12 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess Me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: But he that denieth Me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say."

Matthew 24:3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Mark 13:9-11 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with Me from the beginning. (16:1) These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Ezekiel 24:27 In that day shall thy mouth be opened to him which is escaped, and thou shalt speak and, and be no more dumb: and thou shalt be a sign unto them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

To me it seems this event will happen at the end of days and will be a sign. I believe it will be when the 144,000 are sealed to God's truth...when the Holy Spirit speaks through the witnesses. To not allow that would be to commit the unforgiveable sin.

 

[Vic C.]

If anyone is interested and so we don't derail this thread, here is a link to a thread where many interpretations were discussed.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=33198&hilit=Unforgivable

There are many scholars and commentators who believe as I do, so it isn't only my interpretation or understanding.

 

[researcher]

Is the "unpardonable sin" making a little more sense now?

No... :D

I know this is off topic and I will dig up the link where we discussed the great sin. But I'm convinced of two things:

1- It was addressing those of Jesus' time who actually witnessed the work of the Spirit in Him, and attributed the work of the Lord to Satan instead.

Jesus' reply in this passage was brilliant!

Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

2- Due to #1, this is a sin that just cannot be committed these days. That is unless Jesus comes back and personally begins casting out demons again. :amen

I've seen those verses taken out of context so many times and used in so many places, I lost count.

Interesting.

Of course it was the Pharisees who said Jesus cast out demons by Satan. LOL.

Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

And they were the sons of the devil i.e. the tares, committing the unforgivable sin.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Guess they couldn't help themselves. :o ;)

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Vic C
I've seen those verses taken out of context so many times and used in so many places, I lost count.

You and me both. Interpretations are one thing, but the Bible explains the Unpardonable Sin quite plainly, so I personally don't see where all the confusion comes from.

"On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness." (Deuteronomy 17:6)

And... (among many other places):

". . . Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." (2 Corinthians 13:1)

No one will be lost during the Tribulation because they rejected the testimony of the 144,000. But, a person will be condemned for rejecting the testimony of God’s Two Witnesses. The Two Witnesses will testify about each person.

Matthew 12:31,32 "And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

During the Tribulation, the Holy Spirit will be poured out on mankind with even greater power than on Pentecost Day (compare Joel 2:28-32 with Acts 1:8) The Word of God will be proclaimed in every nation with power and authority. (Matthew 28:14, Revelation 14:6-10) The Eternal Gospel of Jesus Christ will be presented straight from the Word of God and the Holy Spirit will deeply convict everyone to believe in the Eternal Gospel. People who refuse to 1. submit to the authority of God’s Word and 2. the power of the Holy Spirit (two witnesses) will be condemned to death. Just as God’s Law states: "On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness." (Deuteronomy 17:6).

Why else would there be Two "Witnesses" present at the "judgment" in the end? This is straightforward stuff. Why all the different interpretations is a mystery to me.

 

[Vic C.]

Oh my goodness! LOL

They are there (rev. 11) to prophesy and hand out wrath, not to enforce judicial law (of the land)!

"On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness." (Deuteronomy 17:6)

And... (among many other places):

". . . Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." (2 Corinthians 13:1)

Now these are there to carry out against those who transgress one of Levitical laws that required death. In Paul's case it was the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness of the Corinthians. These judicial laws seemed to still be in effect in the first century, just as capital punishment is still used today.

The Unforgivable Sin has nothing to do with End times. No offense, but the more nonessential scripture we bring into eschatology the more muddled the theology gets and we know how muddled it is already! :D

I posted that link to the thread above, so we wouldn't derail this topic. I do have to say that you, researcher, dealt with it strictly in context. The passage clearly explains this heinous sin.

 

[Osgiliath]

Matthew 12:31,32 "And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

How could that possibly be Vic? You could not even commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit until AFTER Pentecost Day. You could commit blasphemy against "the Son" (i.e. when He was present on Earth), but not the Holy Spirit. This could not possibly happen until AFTER Pentecost Day.

 

[whirlwind]

Oh my goodness! LOL

They are there (rev. 11) to prophesy and hand out wrath, not to enforce judicial law (of the land)!

"On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness." (Deuteronomy 17:6)

And... (among many other places):

". . . Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." (2 Corinthians 13:1)

Now these are there to carry out against those who transgress one of Levitical laws that required death. In Paul's case it was the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness of the Corinthians. These judicial laws seemed to still be in effect in the first century, just as capital punishment is still used today.

The Unforgivable Sin has nothing to do with End times. No offense, but the more nonessential scripture we bring into eschatology the more muddled the theology gets and we know how muddled it is already! :D

I posted that link to the thread above, so we wouldn't derail this topic. I do have to say that you, researcher, dealt with it strictly in context. The passage clearly explains this heinous sin.

Vic, I have to disagree. I see a definite connection in end times and the unforgiveable sin.

The unforgiveable sin.....

Luke 12:8-12 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess Me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: But he that denieth Me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say."


Jesus explaining the sign of His coming and the end of the world:

Mark 13:9-11 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Matthew 12:31,32 "And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

How could that possibly be Vic? You could not even commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit until AFTER Pentecost Day. You could commit blasphemy against "the Son" (i.e. when He was present on Earth), but not the Holy Spirit. This could not possibly happen until AFTER Pentecost Day.

I dont believe this will happen but,,,,if it does it will not be possible until satan/antichrist is actually here.......This will be the time that this sin can be commited::

"But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought before hand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye, for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.".