New Testament View of the Old Testament

[isaacschade]

Howdy everyone,

I am working on my thoughts about how to view the New Testament in light of the Old Testament. I have some thoughts of my own, but I would be interested to hear other people's thoughts.

I'm thinking through things like:
- What is Jesus' role with respect to the Mosaic (Old Testament) law?
- What do we in "New Testament" churches do with these Old Testament laws? Are they outdated? Are they relevant for us today? Can we take some while leaving others behind? (more succinctly: What is the role of the Old Testament in our churches today?)
- Do Paul and Jesus agree on their perspective of how we should treat the law?

I would love to have discussions with people about any or all of these questions. Below are some texts to consider:

Matthew 5.17
2 Corinthians 3.5-6
Romans 7.22
Romans 7.12
Romans 3.31
Romans 10.4
1 Timothy 1.5
Ephesians 2.14-15
Colossians 2.14

thanks so much for your thoughts!
isaac schade

 

[Free]

I think one of the most central passages to consider is Luke 24:25-27 (see also Peter's speech in Acts 2).

I actually just started reading a book I've been meaning to read for a while: The Shadow of Christ in the Law of Moses by Vern S. Poythress. It deals precisely with all your questions. But I'm not a fast reader and it's a big book so it'll be a while before I can offer any real answers.

Welcome to the forums.

 

[justvisiting]

There's nothing wrong with obeying the ten commandments. It's the ceremonial law that has nothing to do with us. We live under grace...which is in a way...more difficult.
It used to be adultery was a physical act...now if you do it in your heart it's a sin.
The best thing I can say is Jesus gave the short answer...
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Gal 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Gal 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Gal 5:10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Gal 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[isaacschade]

thanks for the kind welcome!

justvisting...
haha, i wholeheartedly agree with you that it is certainly in ways harder for us to live under grace. in many ways it feels like Jesus' revisioning of the law holds us to a higher standard. what i'm wondering is what is it that frees us to follow the ten commandments while leaving behind the ceremonial law? my gut reaction is that since jesus really says nothing about it, we just assume it's outdated? would you say then that this is a question of spirit of the law vs. letter of the law?

like you illustrated in matthew, everything falls in one way or another under the two greatest commandments.

free...
i'm interested in hearing more about your book as you get into it! it sounds like that will be a good read and helpful to thinking about the relationship of the hebrew bible to the newer testament.

what is it that luke is saying in these two places (the luke 24 text and peter's speech in acts 2)? do they tie in together at all? both certainly seem to show how the old testament prepares us for the arrival of the messiah. what about jesus and his role to the law? is he overturning it? do we need it? can we have some parts and not others?

on a side note, i recently heart someone use this lukan text to try to prove mosaic authorship of the torah. interesting.

anybody have any thoughts on paul? are he an jesus in agreement about the law? i would love to hear some other voices as well.

 

[AAA]

I think that the inconvenient truth is that the answer to your question is made perfectly clear in Jesus' words (Matthew 5:17-20).

 

[Godfrey]

It's important to understand the concept of covenant here - an agreement between God and man being the relevant definition.

The old, Mosaic, covenant was between God and the Jewish nation, and for that reason alone it doesn't apply to Gentiles. The ten commandments are in it, but so are 603 other commandments and the rule was, if you're going to keep one, you've got to keep the lot.

But in the sermon on the mount, when Jesus kept saying, "You were told ... but I tell you ..." He was talking to Jews. He was telling them that the old covenant was over, and He was telling them what the new covenant said instead. Hence nobody need ever keep any provision of the Mosaic law just because it's in the Mosaic law.

The confusion arises because there are some overlaps. Here in England the law is made by Acts of Parliament, and when one Act replaces another, some provisions of the old Act remain unchanged, some are abolished and some are altered; and the new Act may contain new provisions.

Same here. E.g., "Love the Lord your God ..." is common to both covenants, but dietary rules are abolished and the expectations for sexual immorality are considerably toughened: "Don't do it" becomes "Don't even think about it."

 

[NIGHTMARE]

There's nothing wrong with obeying the ten commandments. It's the ceremonial law that has nothing to do with us. We live under grace...which is in a way...more difficult.
It used to be adultery was a physical act...now if you do it in your heart it's a sin.
The best thing I can say is Jesus gave the short answer...
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Gal 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Gal 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Gal 5:10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Gal 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

There's nothing wrong with obeying the ten commandments. It's the ceremonial law that has nothing to do with us.

Has nothing to do witrh us,,,,I dont about about you but it has plenty to do with humanity,,,If you break some of them you might go into debt,,,if you break others you might be executed and you must repent if you break any of them,,,nd you say they have nothing to do with us..

 

[dan p]

Hi , this is the way that I see the whole bible.

1) From Genesis _______Acts , we have the Old Testament that was written to Israel >

2) From Romans _________Philemons are the Grace letters written to the Body of Christ by Paul .

3) Hebrews______ thru Revelation is the New Covenant that is written to Israel .

4) If you want to engage further , either thru PM , OR I will have to be on this forum a lot more .

5) New Testament , means New Covenant and it is yet future ????

 

[Brother Lionel]

My view is that all of the laws still apply today besides the ceremonial laws. According to the bible, there were four sets of laws given to the children of Israel:

The Moral Law (The Ten Commandments)

The ceremonial law (circumcision, uncircumcision, and the sacrificial system)

The health law (addressed what foods were "clean" and what foods weren't)

The civil law (laws that instilled order amoungst the people)

If we follow the bible from Genesis to Revelation, the only set of laws, biblically, that were abolished, done away with, or abrogated were the ceremonial laws. Now, I understand that people will quote scripture after scripture about how this was abolished and how that was fulfilled. But if you view those scriptures in context (meaning in terms of the basic message that the author was trying to relay), you would find that the only set of laws which were "abolished" were the ceremonial laws and its sacrificial system.

 

[Brother Lionel]

Also, I'm seeing a lot of "New Covenant" and "Old Covenant" talk. Keep in mind that, again, if you study every scripture which references the New Covenant, you would find that law and its standard did not change. The only "change" in the Covenants was were the laws would be written. In the Old Covenant, the laws were written on stone and on paper. In the New Covenant, the laws are now written on our hearts. Again, this what the bible says and if you diligently study this, you would have no choice but to arrive at this fact.

 

[Free]

Again, this what the bible says and if you diligently study this, you would have no choice but to arrive at this fact.

Most of Galatians alone proves wrong much of what you said.

 

[Brother Lionel]

I beg to differ free. Galatians 3 is addressing the issue of justification. For instance, Galatians 3:11 says "But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for ‘the just shall live by faith.’†It is clear that the premise of this chapter is justification. And this is true; the law can not and was never meant to justify us. Only Jesus can justify us and save from from sin, not we ourselves by keeping the law. Also, in Galatians 3:24 it says "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." So again, the premise here is justification. And the ceremonial law was implemented to point us to the cross of Christ. So, by faith, those who took part in the sacrificial service looked forward to the true sacrifice for salvation - Jesus Christ. And we, by faith, look back to the cross for salvation. But the law (ceremonial law) was our "tutor" in that the sacrificial system symolized and taught the nature of the Messiah and the artifacts in the sanctuary all typified Him. Here are the parts of the sanctuary and their semblance:

The door of the sanctuary - Jesus is the door by which we may enter and receive eternal life

The alter or burnt offerings – Jesus is the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world

The laver – Jesus washes away our sins with His blood, through Jesus we are born of water and of Spirit (John 3:5), Jesus gives us the water of life so that we will never thirst again (John 4:13)

The table of showbread – Jesus is the bread of life

The golden lampstand – Jesus is the light of the world

The alter of incense – Our prayers and merits are interceded by His mediation and merit (1Timothy 2:5), Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant being our High Priest (Hebrews 8:6, 9:15, 12:24, 3:1, 4:14, 6:20)

The veil to the Most Holy Place – Jesus shields us from the wrath and judgment of God

The mercy seat – Man will see the true Shekhinah glory of Jesus’ presence when He returns to earth (Mat 16:27, 19:28, 24:30, 25:31, Luke 21:27

The tables of stone – Jesus is our Judge and will judge man by the law of liberty (John 5:30, John 8:26, Rom 2:16, 2 Timothy 4:1, Jam 2:12)


So, as yo can see, it all pointed to the real Lamb of God. This is why Paul said "the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." But the law (outside the ceremonial law) is not abolished or abrogated. The New Covenant is where the laws will be in our hearts and on our minds. So, the law still applies because there is still sin in the world and sin is the breaking of God’s Law. So, when we view the Old Testament in light of the New, we can see that God never “abolished†the law besides the ceremonial law. According to the New Testament, the Moral Law, Civil Law, and Health Law is still valid and binding. Now, please do not misunderstand me, the law does not save us. Jesus is the only one that can save us. But AFTER we are saved, we are called to live a certain way, to live according to the principles of God, i.e. the Law of God. So we don’t keep the law to be saved, but we keep the law because we are saved and because we love God.

John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:10 - If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1John 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Exodus 20:6 - And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Deut 7:9 - Know therefore that the LORD thy God...keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations

 

[Drew]

Howdy everyone,

I am working on my thoughts about how to view the New Testament in light of the Old Testament. I have some thoughts of my own, but I would be interested to hear other people's thoughts.

I'm thinking through things like:
- What is Jesus' role with respect to the Mosaic (Old Testament) law?

As Paul says in Romans 10, Jesus is the "goal that the the Old Testament Law is seeking"

- What do we in "New Testament" churches do with these Old Testament laws? Are they outdated? Are they relevant for us today? Can we take some while leaving others behind? (more succinctly: What is the role of the Old Testament in our churches today?)

The Law of Moses is fully retired and abolished, having fully achieved its purpose. The Old Testament together with the New Testament are to be understood as revealing the redemptive plan of God to reclaim His fallen creation.

- Do Paul and Jesus agree on their perspective of how we should treat the law?

Absolutely. Paul explicitly declares the end of the Law of Moses. Jesus enacts the end of the Law of Moses through his breaking of it and teaching others to do likewise. Just one example: In Mark 7, Jesus overturns the Law of Moses in respect to unclean foods.

 

[Drew]

I think that the inconvenient truth is that the answer to your question is made perfectly clear in Jesus' words (Matthew 5:17-20).

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and I suggest that we in the modern west have been a little careless in understanding the implications of this. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think that, at least in a certain specific sense, Torah has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which, to me, unambiguously declare the abolition of the Torah, at least in terms of “rules and regulationsâ€Â.

Here is Matthew 5:17-19 in the NASB:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

How can one read this text and possibly think that the prescriptions of the Torah do not remain in force, given that heaven and earth are still here?

I think that there is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Torah was retired 2000 years ago as Paul seems to so forcefully argue that it was (e.g. Eph 2:15). My proposal (building, of course, on the ideas of others – I am no Bible scholar) hinges on the assertion that in Hebrew culture apocalyptic “end of the world†language was commonly used in a specifically metaphorical mode for the specific purposes of investing commonplace events with their theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence that this was so. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of such metaphorical “end of the world†imagery being used to describe much more “mundane†events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away†is an apocalyptic metaphor.

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Torah was retired.

Of course, the argument here is only sketch, but I present the above as a plausibility argument that there may be a way to legitimately read Jesus here as not declaring that the Torah will remain in force basically to the end of time.

 

[Brother Lionel]

I'm thinking through things like:
- What is Jesus' role with respect to the Mosaic (Old Testament) law?
- What do we in "New Testament" churches do with these Old Testament laws?
- Are they outdated?
- Are they relevant for us today?
- Can we take some while leaving others behind? (more succinctly: What is the role of the Old Testament in our churches today?)
- Do Paul and Jesus agree on their perspective of how we should treat the law?

So to address your questions Isaac (which are good ones by the way), I would like to address each one from a biblical basis only:

- What is Jesus' role with respect to the Mosaic (Old Testament) law?

First, we have to delve into what exactly the Old Testament Law comprised of. There were four sets of laws in the Old Testament; the moral law, civil law, health law, and ceremonial law. According to the New Testament, the only set of Old Testament laws which were done away with were the ceremonial laws. And Jesus’ role in regards to the Old Testament Law was that 1.) He gave the Law to Moses, and 2.) He fulfilled the law with His ministry.


- What do we in "New Testament" churches do with these Old Testament laws?

Being that there is nothing that points to the abolishment of these laws besides the ceremonial laws; the bible teaches that we, the body of Christ, should live in obedience to the Law of God after we receive salvation by grace from Christ.

Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God...

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


- Are they outdated?

According to the New Testament, no.


-Are they relevant for us today?

Yes, the bible says that where there is no law, there’s no sin. And of course there is still sin in the world so that means that the law is still here. If the law is not relevant, that means we are not sinners. (Rom 4:15)


- Can we take some while leaving others behind? (more succinctly: What is the role of the Old Testament in our churches today?)

Well, the bible says “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all†James 2:10. So, we are all sinners, but the bible teaches that we should live in obedience to God’s law. To “pick and choose†what laws to keep and what laws not to keep is not up to us to decree. The “role†of the Old Testament plays a very, very small role in the average church today. Very few churches hold the OT and the NT on the same plain and in their full context. Most churches erroneous assume that all laws in the OT were “done away†with but the NT says no such thing.


- Do Paul and Jesus agree on their perspective of how we should treat the law?

Most definitely. The majority of Christians assume that Paul has a particular view in regards to the law but they fail to keep in mind that Paul was addressing a very important issue during his day – that the Pharisees held the assumption that the law brings justification. So when we take this into consideration and study Paul’s writings in this context, we can see that Jesus, Paul, and all of the NT authors agree perfectly.

 

[RND]

- What is Jesus' role with respect to the Mosaic (Old Testament) law?

He wrote it and lived by it.

- What do we in "New Testament" churches do with these Old Testament laws? Are they outdated? Are they relevant for us today? Can we take some while leaving others behind? (more succinctly: What is the role of the Old Testament in our churches today?)

Most churches ignore the very practical and sound advice of God unless it fits their agenda or theology. For example, most will firmly denounce homosexuality as "sin and against the law" yet at the same time they'll ignore God's advice and eat whatever they want.

- Do Paul and Jesus agree on their perspective of how we should treat the law?

Without a doubt!

 

[RND]

The old, Mosaic, covenant was between God and the Jewish nation, and for that reason alone it doesn't apply to Gentiles.

Question: Why were gentiles required to obey it?

 

[Drew]

According to the New Testament, the only set of Old Testament laws which were done away with were the ceremonial laws.

No. This view is undermined by his argument of Romans 7:

So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

So we know that Paul thinks we are no longer under law – that the new authority is the Spirit. Does this “law†that we are no longer under include the 10 commandments? Obviously it does. Note what Paul immediately goes on to write:

7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

I trust I need not point out the obvious, but I will. The command “Do not covet†is one of – you guessed it – the 10 commandments.

So it is clear that Paul sees that we have been released from the 10 commandments.

 

[Drew]

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God...

But this material is not describing the state of affairs of the believer - it is a description of what was the case for the Jew living under the Law of Moses. So this text is not about life in "New Testament times"

1. The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

2. The Christian in Romans 8 is described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

3. If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:

a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)

b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)

These statements are inconsistent. Therefore, assuming we agree that the statement from Romans 8 is about the Christian, the Romans 7 cannot be descriptive of the experience of the Christian - one cannot be both subject to the effects of a law and yet also released from its effect.

 

[RND]

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God...

But this material is not describing the state of affairs of the believer - it is a description of what was the case for the Jew living under the Law of Moses. So this text is not about life in "New Testament times"

1. The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

That's what violating the law leads to.....death. However, by the blood of Christ and His grace, we are counted as righteous but only if we obey the law by the way of the Holy Spirit.

2. The Christian in Romans 8 is described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

"Set free" as it no longer a law breaker. Those that accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior obey Him and live up to His commandments - they don't continually break the law.

3. If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:

a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)

The soul that sins it shall die.

b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)

They aren't "set free" from obeying the law they are freed from the "penalty" of their sin. That penalty is death.

These statements are inconsistent. Therefore, assuming we agree that the statement from Romans 8 is about the Christian, the Romans 7 cannot be descriptive of the experience of the Christian - one cannot be both subject to the effects of a law and yet also released from its effect.

Sure they can and that's the whole point of the Gospel for goodness sake! All sinners are going to die. All of 'em. However some will be converted, turn away from sin, accept Christ and become a new man. The blood of Christ makes them alive and guaranteed eternal life.

I've seen this "universalist" position before. All sin, thus all are saved. No law, no sin. How incredibly ridiculous!